richfame
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Post by richfame on Mar 23, 2010 22:13:33 GMT -5
Im not as high on this episode as the previous posters. I think I had huge expectations for it, thats why. Yeah , It kinda answered questions we aleady knew the answers too.
Why is richard ageless? already knew that..
how did he get there... already knew that..
who brought him there.. already knew that..
I dont like teh whole, your dead dialogue, or this is hell stuff. Thats so lame.
what could be worse, someone wakes up and it was a dream..
8 episodes left or so, and more questions, Just dont seem fulfilled enough.. The shows going to end and were going to be like.. WHAT? Thats it, jaccob brought these people back to the island to cleanse there sins? To protect humanity from evil smokie...Come on..
Looking back on it its kinda funny, at first we thought the others had the answers, then the dharma, then Ben, then richard, then jacob, then smokie. In the end I dont think audience will get the answers haha....
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Buckets
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Post by Buckets on Mar 23, 2010 22:50:46 GMT -5
The beginning of the episode was slow to me, mostly because I had been expecting a Richard-centric episode to cover more than just how he got on the island, like the near-century between when he got there and the WWII era. Either way, as soon as he started talking with Malevolence and Jacob, it was all made up for. Jacob kicking ass is awesome.
Richard's discussion with Jacob and the other raised more questions than they answered for me. If Jacob knows Richard is coming, why did he beat his ass? Why did the Black Smoke eliminate everyone, especially the captain going around stabbing everyone? He seemed like the perfect candidate to kill Jacob.
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 24, 2010 8:34:06 GMT -5
Why did the Black Smoke eliminate everyone, especially the captain going around stabbing everyone? He seemed like the perfect candidate to kill Jacob. The part where the monster spares Richard reminded me of Mr. Eko, who told the monster he wasn't sorry for doing what he did to survive (including murder) and then was immediately smoked - which I've never understood, given that he went on a vow of silence in penance for killing a bunch of people trying to kidnap him. Eko seemed sorry for most of the show and then basically goes the other way and gives the monster the finger. Richard is trying to help his wife, and kills only by accident, yet still asks for forgiveness and accepts the fact he killed someone. Whatever the reason that the monster kills people, it's going to have something to do with penance/murder/forgiveness. |
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Mar 24, 2010 8:53:48 GMT -5
A couple of things:
- In addition to not being able to kill Jacob, clearly the smoke monster/Esau/Malevolence cannot kill -- directly anyway -- anyone Jacob has touched. I will be more than disappointed if the show violates this, but I don't think it will.
- Esau also needs people who he/it can corrupt to its will, not necessarily people who are already corrupted, since Jacob, I would imagine, would see right through someone like that and they'd never be able to get close enough to kill him. That is why he/it goes after Richard, and subsequently Ben, who had been a loyal servant to Jacob. In the case of Eko, my guess is that he/it paused at first because it saw someone who it might be able to corrupt. I think he/it then killed Eko either because it saw him as already corrupted (murder) or as someone who had found his redemption and was now incorruptible.
This doesn't entirely explain how Jacob knew to beat the crap out of Richard, so I'm sure I'm missing something, but I think this is on the right track at least.
- Obviously, the Biblical allusions are rampant, with Jacob (God) not interfering -- on the island at least -- while Esau (Satan) walks the island to tempt man. (I am not sure if this makes Richard Jesus or the Pope though ;D ) I'll bet some are disheartened by the admission that Jacob continues to bring people to the island only to die, but the concept of God testing man is not really inconsistent. Also, clearly this is a show that believes in the Afterlife, so the fact that people are dying is almost irrelevant.
- Speaking of the Afterlife, can we get Libby to come talk to Hurley at some point, please! For frick's sake, we can bring back Arzt and Keamy, and Charlie's brother for crying out loud, but I can't get a little Libby?
(sorry, rant over)
- Hurley is the man. That is all.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Mar 24, 2010 9:07:56 GMT -5
Great Great Episode!
So my little recap of what I think I learned about this episode. Mostly this episode confirmed things that I/fans had suspected, but couldn't prove, but it also told us things we hadn't suspected.
Things that were suspected:
1) Richard came to the island on the black rock
2) jacob and the Man in black have been "playing a game" to prove each other wrong bout human nature.
3) Jacob made it so richard could live forever. ( but it seems just because it suited his purpose. He didn't grant any of richards first two wishes claiming he couldn't, but then richard asked for something that he saw a benefit in bestowing and then granted it.)
New things:
1) The black rock destroyed the statue.
2) we learned the true nature of the island. No not hell. It's a cork. Earlier this season kristen from E said they would reveal the true nature of the island and that it would be a 4 letter word with no e and no a. Now we know that word is cork. The island keeps the "evil" man in black from being unleashed upon the world.
3) much like the biblical god, Jacob does not want to compromise free will. as he said what's the point if he drags us by the hand.
4) I loved that the MIB said the same speech about the knife to richard that dogan did to sayid.
Questions raised/ related to this episode:
1) Who/What is Jacob? If he is God he's definitely an old testament God and not a new testament God. It doesn't seem like God should be playing this game with the "devil" and testing human nature. Although God does something very simillar with Job in the Old testament. He doesn't appear to be the all powerful all lovign god of the new testament, but he does seem like the god of the old testament.
2) Who/What is the Man in black? He claims Jacob made him that way and took away his humanity. He claims to have once been a man and to have had a crazy mother. Is he perhaps like the fallen angel who was punished for challenging god and we now associate as the devil? It seems like he has been there a long time before the black rock? how long before? The beginning of time? How long has jacob ben bringing people to the island? One would think he had to wait until people started making boats at least haha.
3) Is it so clear cut that one is evil and one is good? I'm skeptical at times that it's so clear cut that Jacob is pure good and MIB is pure evil. One may be more evil and the other more good, but i don't think either is perfect. It may be that the two just have differing opinions. One believes that human nature is good the other doesn't. But this could jsut be optimism vs. pessimism. If MIB is to believed Jacob is more powerful than him since he took away his humanity and is keeping him on the island. I don't think MIB sees himself as evil. I don't think he believes in the whole right vs. wrong.
4) Does jacob answer to someone. In my mind since he can be killed and replaced it would seem there could be someone more powerful than him giving him orders, but there does not have to be one. Did someone order him to keep the MIB on the island or did he take it upon himself.
5) If jacob is Good, then why is he playing this game? It seems all he's ultimately doing is getting a lot of people killed. Sure maybe eventually he'll prove MIB wrong, but at what cost? It also doesn't seem necessary to his overall goal of keeping the world safe from MIB. If anything it seems like it jeopardizes that missions since only someone else can kill him so by bringing people here he's just giving MIB more chances to escape. DID MIB trick him into this game?
6) What is losts end game? Will the season end with one of the candidates taking over for jacob and re trapping smokey on the island? Or will there be more to that? Will smokey be destroyed? Will smokey be freed upon the earth? Will the game on human nature be completed? aka will one of the losties prove jacob right? If not will the candidate who takes over for jacob be compelled to prove MIB wrong too? I'm not sure why they would.
7) which candidate will emerge as the one to replace Jacob. I mean at this point it has to be Jack right? I mean that seems to be where it's pointing, but I wouldn't put it past lost to throw us a curve ball. The only other candidate that I think it could be would be Hurley, no one else seems at all set up to replace jacob.
8) speaking of hurley how did he get his power? Did Jacob give it to him? Did he give walt his powers too? What the hell were walt's powers?
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Mar 24, 2010 9:13:42 GMT -5
OOH one more thing. Kinda spoilerish, but not really.
The Fact:
There's going to be an episode near the end of the season with none of the regular losties. No jack, kate, sawyer, sun, hurley, etc.
My interpretation:
Where going to get another episode like this, but it's going to be all Jacob and MIB. I think there we'll get a lot more of our answers about the island and their conflict.
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Post by williambraskyiii on Mar 24, 2010 9:38:31 GMT -5
Amazing episode. Welcome back LOST. That scene with Hurley, Ricardo and his deceased wife could've come off cheesy, but they nailed it with Smocke lording over the scene from afar.
A couple random thoughts floating through my head:
Last night, didn't MiB tell Richard that Jacob took his body? Does that mean Jacob's physical being is what MiB looked like?
That episode from a season or two ago, with Jake and MiB on the beach -- they see a boat and have a discussion about "everything else is just progress" -- is that the Black Rock? that was a beautiful day if i recall correctly, not the stormy craziness of last night...that can obviously be explained away but just a thought.
I actually want to go back to that conversation on the beach and re-read it now that they have illuminated a bit more their dynamic.
The LOST writers have conditioned me to look at every new character very closely to see where they've played a part elsewhere in the story. I even thought that Richard's dying wife looked a little like Sayid's dead wife in the first scene and I was half-expecting the doctor to be someone else familiar.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Mar 24, 2010 12:15:47 GMT -5
5) If jacob is Good, then why is he playing this game? It seems all he's ultimately doing is getting a lot of people killed. Sure maybe eventually he'll prove MIB wrong, but at what cost? It also doesn't seem necessary to his overall goal of keeping the world safe from MIB. If anything it seems like it jeopardizes that missions since only someone else can kill him so by bringing people here he's just giving MIB more chances to escape. DID MIB trick him into this game? "They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same." "But it only ends once. Everything else... is just progress." So, I think there is some sort of progress to be made by groups coming and maybe not turning so quickly on one another... Maybe the progress will finally culminate with this group, who will reach whatever the ultimate goal is (the defeat of evil?). It seems that not only is Jacob there to keep tabs on MIB/malevolence/evil incarnate, but that there is some larger goal that's being worked toward and that all of the people he brings to the island play a role in that. Also, even though we didn't see the alternate timeline last night.... We did learn that the island functions as a cork to keep evil bottled up and away from the rest of the world. In the alt timeline, the island is sunk. Does that mean that the evil has been unleashed and earth has become hell? The alt-world hasn't really seemed so bad at all, but if that's the island's function and the island is no more, that would be the logical conclusion. Unless maybe the MiB and by extension "evil" went down with the island. |
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Mar 24, 2010 12:37:23 GMT -5
Or maybe Sideways just SEEMS like the perfect world right now. We've already seen cracks.
Maybe it's like Homer Simpson's toaster time machine, where he comes back to find a world where everything seems perfect.....EXCEPT THERE ARE NO DONUTS!!!
(There is delicious, fried-dough rain, however)
;D
Also, am I the only one who thinks the last scene in this entire series will be Jack and Locke sitting on a beach, with Locke looking at Jack and saying, "Do you have any idea how badly I want to kill you?"
Jack: "Yes."
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 24, 2010 13:05:20 GMT -5
I don't. I think the series ends like jgalt says - the sideways Universe crew is pulled to the island and Charlie says "Where are we?".
I have no doubt that Jack will be the replacement but I also think it's way inconsistent. Jacob manages to successfully push people to do things subtly. Jack forces people to screw everything up, time and time again. Sawyer to me seems more Jacob-like in his ability to trick people into doing what he wants.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Mar 24, 2010 13:51:03 GMT -5
The scene where Jacob dunked Richard in the ocean reminded me of the scene where Dogen dunked Sayid. Sort of a baptism or anti-baptism.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Mar 24, 2010 14:03:04 GMT -5
I don't. I think the series ends like jgalt says - the sideways Universe crew is pulled to the island and Charlie says "Where are we?". Except the alt-island is submerged  While Jack has to be the odds on favorite for Jacob's spot, for some reason I can see it being Hurley too. Without knowing the exact relationship between the flash sideways and the timeline we're used to, there seemed to be a sort of Jacob-esque quality to Hurley when he met Locke in the parking lot in The Substitute. Plus he has no real external ties, and has the right sort of spirit for the job. It would be kind of like when Peter Pan chooses the chubby kid to lead the Lost Boys at the end of the movie Hook. |
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Mar 24, 2010 14:18:47 GMT -5
maybe in the alt time line the MIB never became the MIB so it doesn't matter that the island is sunk?
Or maybe he's been destroyed so it doesn't matter? Maybe the island has served it's purpose so it disappeared into the ocean.
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 24, 2010 14:27:21 GMT -5
maybe in the alt time line the MIB never became the MIB so it doesn't matter that the island is sunk? How would that happen? The energy pocket was destroyed in the 70's, not the 1800's. |
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Mar 24, 2010 14:42:59 GMT -5
maybe in the alt time line the MIB never became the MIB so it doesn't matter that the island is sunk? How would that happen? The energy pocket was destroyed in the 70's, not the 1800's. A wizard did it. |
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Mar 24, 2010 15:14:39 GMT -5
The scene where Jacob dunked Richard in the ocean reminded me of the scene where Dogen dunked Sayid. Sort of a baptism or anti-baptism. Yeah there seemed to be alot of parallel scenes in this episode. like of course when MIB gave richard the knife, he said the samething dogon said to sayid, and my room mate said that when the MID said to Richard "good to see you out of those chains" it was the same as something that another character had said, but we couldnt think who. |
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Mar 24, 2010 15:21:36 GMT -5
Yeah there seemed to be alot of parallel scenes in this episode. like of course when MIB gave richard the knife, he said the samething dogon said to sayid, and my room mate said that when the MID said to Richard "good to see you out of those chains" it was the same as something that another character had said, but we couldnt think who. MIB-as-Locke said the same thing to Richard in the season premiere, shortly before knocking him around and carrying him off. |
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Mar 24, 2010 15:27:57 GMT -5
well we don't really know a) what the alternate universe is or what it has to do with anything at this point or b) what setting off the nuke did besides time travel the losties back to the present.
but yeah you're probably right.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Mar 24, 2010 20:29:29 GMT -5
A couple other thoughts:
I was dissapointed we didn't see Magnus Hanso/ he didn't seem that important. I assumed since widmore purchased the diary and that his descendant helped found the Dharma initiative that he'd have a bigger role, but it seems like everyone besides richard was killed. Speaking of which, why did the man in black just kill everyone. Did he?
in luke chapter 4 that richard was reading, when the priest came in jesus is tempted by the devil in the desert. In a similar vein the man in black tempts people who come to the island with that which they most desire. One question i've wondered is does he have the power to follow through on any of his promises or is he just conning people. Can he reunite sayid with nadia in any real meaningful way for example?
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Mar 28, 2010 12:51:19 GMT -5
Reading a lot of reviews of this past episode, lots of people who have been begging for answers all along are now upset with the answers we are getting. Does anyone here feel that way? The one major one that keeps getting brought up is how the black rock got to the middle of the island. People were disappointed to find out it was just a wave. guess they were expecting a much more magical explanation. I personally wasn't disappointed at all and think these people are being ridiculous. Does anyone else have any thoughts on the answers we're getting.
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