The More Things Change....

[SoCalHoya]

Jul 22, 2009 12:44:56 GMT -5 kchoya said:

1. If you're going to take that attitude than any meaningful debate is impossible. That's a tactic that's been way overused in race discussions in this country.

2. How can you say Gates was a victim of racial profiling. LEOs received a complaint and went to investigate. It's that simple. The fact that they guys was acting like and ass and pulling the "Do you know who I am" card had nothing to do with his race, other than the fact that he brought it up.

1. I'm not taking any sort of attitude. I sincerely think it is tough to understand unless you've had an experience with it.

2. I cannot imagine a cop rolling up and seeing a white Skip Gates* and feeling a need to arrest him, even with all the "Do you know who I am?" stuff. My grandmother was more imposing and sassy than Skip Gates.

*black Skip Gates is actually 51% Irish.

[kchoya]

Jul 22, 2009 12:57:43 GMT -5 AvantGuardHoya said:

So small minded. I feel sorry for you.

Also, can you imagine JT2 pulling this crap. I can't. [/quote]

Son, I can live without your pity. And clearly you don't know John Thompson, Jr.[/quote]

Clearly you don't either. You can see JT2 acting like an ass and saying things like "ya, I'll speak with your mama outside"

Keep hatin' on whitey, Reagan and the Republicans and living in the past as the world evolves and passes you by, bitter old man.

[kchoya]

Jul 22, 2009 13:01:24 GMT -5 SoCalHoya said:

Jul 22, 2009 12:44:56 GMT -5 kchoya said:

1. If you're going to take that attitude than any meaningful debate is impossible. That's a tactic that's been way overused in race discussions in this country.

2. How can you say Gates was a victim of racial profiling. LEOs received a complaint and went to investigate. It's that simple. The fact that they guys was acting like and ass and pulling the "Do you know who I am" card had nothing to do with his race, other than the fact that he brought it up.

2. I cannot imagine a cop rolling up and seeing a white Skip Gates* and feeling a need to arrest him, even with all the "Do you know who I am?" stuff. My grandmother was more imposing and sassy than Skip Gates.

That's such an oversimplification that's not even funny. You must not have done much criminal law. If you're going to act like an ass, follow an officer around calling him a racist and cuss and yell in front of a crowd, most officers are going to cite you, no matter what color you are.

[thebin]

Jul 22, 2009 13:01:24 GMT -5 SoCalHoya said:

Jul 22, 2009 12:44:56 GMT -5 kchoya said:

1. If you're going to take that attitude than any meaningful debate is impossible. That's a tactic that's been way overused in race discussions in this country.

2. How can you say Gates was a victim of racial profiling. LEOs received a complaint and went to investigate. It's that simple. The fact that they guys was acting like and ass and pulling the "Do you know who I am" card had nothing to do with his race, other than the fact that he brought it up.

1. I'm not taking any sort of attitude. I sincerely think it is tough to understand unless you've had an experience with it.

2. I cannot imagine a cop rolling up and seeing a white Skip Gates* and feeling a need to arrest him, even with all the "Do you know who I am?" stuff. My grandmother was more imposing and sassy than Skip Gates.

*black Skip Gates is actually 51% Irish.

If you think cops only cite/arrest people they are physically intimidated by or have racial animosity towards....I'd like to welcome you to reality. Cops arrest ANYONE who is even moderately pis ssing them off. Generally speaking, it is not hard to pi ss off a cop either.

[kchoya]

Jul 22, 2009 13:12:21 GMT -5 thebin said:

Jul 22, 2009 13:01:24 GMT -5 SoCalHoya said:

1. I'm not taking any sort of attitude. I sincerely think it is tough to understand unless you've had an experience with it.

2. I cannot imagine a cop rolling up and seeing a white Skip Gates* and feeling a need to arrest him, even with all the "Do you know who I am?" stuff. My grandmother was more imposing and sassy than Skip Gates.

*black Skip Gates is actually 51% Irish.

If you think cops only cite/arrest people they are physically intimidated by I'd like to welcome you to reality. Cops arrest ANYONE who is Editeding them off past their generally thin skin.

That's the point I'm trying to make. This story is not about race. It's about a guy who acted like an ass and pushed the buttons of the police. Black, white or purple, he shouldn't be surprised when they finally arrested him.

[thebin]

That old SNL Eddie Murphy skit needs an update. This time White Eddie should tell a cop to scew himself a few times in public and the cop should just smile and walk away. It would be as realistic as the bank officer just handing White Eddie a stack of cash strings free.

[thebin]

If only the ghost of Martin Luther King Jr could see the progress we've made. We live in an age where a highly privilleged, wealthy, Harvard intellectual living under a black president can play Rosa Parks for an afternoon because he wasn't able to harrass cops in public after they made an honest attempt to secure that rich man's house from apparent burglers without being arrested (just as a white man would have been in his shoes) and then having the charges swiftly dropped (as they would NOT have been for a white man.) You go Skip! Of course, Gates will make millions off of this manufactured outrage, so i'm not sure even he resents it now. He got his street cred!

[TC]

Jul 22, 2009 12:51:00 GMT -5 Boz said:

Not to single out TC, but lots of people -- and newspapers and self-righteous columnists -- have been saying "the police report said this, the police report said that."

Is there a different report available?

There's a more complete police report linked on Page 1 of this thread - the officer's statement does detail the chronology of events (when Gates presented ID, when the officer said he was leaving and would talk to him outside, etc). It's worth a read.

[Boz]

I missed that. Thanks, TC.

On edit, after reading that, I think I have to retract my previous post. Most of what I have been reading about and what you stated IS in fact in the report.

I'm not sure why I could only see that smaller, abbreviated report. Seems kind of silly to make that available instead of the complete report if the full report is already public (though they forgot to black out the name of the person who called 911).

I do stand by the conclusion though. Yes, the officer probably could have, maybe even should have, just let it go. But if you're going to go out there and just continue to berate them, I don't think you're in a very good position to complain about the consequences.

[SSHoya]

Jul 22, 2009 10:51:43 GMT -5 thebin said:

You think think a Hispanic cop was overly-suspicious of Asians in general for grand theft auto or something? If he had run your plates, sounds to me like your car matched the description of a recently stolen or criminal-used car near the scene of wherever you were driving that he had just been alerted too. That hardly sounds like profiling.

thebin,

I guess i should have mentioned that Asian gangs have been gaining a foothold into the Maryland suburbs in the last decade and are known for home invasion, robberies, and yes, car theft. That's why I said I "believe" I was profiled. Anyway, one of my major points is that the officer could have simply said "sorry for the inconvenience" in circumstances where I wasn't "wolfing" at him and it was apparent he made an error. (I stated the officer was Hispanic simply because most discussions about race always revolve around black/white) In Gates 'circumstances, even accepting as true that Gates was being loudly obnoxious, I think the officer should have walked away.

I am no bleeding heart liberal. I spent four years at DOJ defending federal law enforcement officials for alleged violations of Constitutional rights, i.e., Bivens claims (federal equivalent of the Section 1983 actions brought against state actors) so I am quite familiar with the law enforcement community and culture and have defended more than my fair share of frivolous complaints.

[thebin]

Jul 22, 2009 13:27:46 GMT -5 SSHoya said:

Jul 22, 2009 10:51:43 GMT -5 thebin said:

You think think a Hispanic cop was overly-suspicious of Asians in general for grand theft auto or something? If he had run your plates, sounds to me like your car matched the description of a recently stolen or criminal-used car near the scene of wherever you were driving that he had just been alerted too. That hardly sounds like profiling.

thebin,

I guess i should have mentioned that Asian gangs have been gaining a foothold into the Maryland suburbs in the last decade and are known for home invasion, robberies, and yes, car theft. That's why I said I "believe" I was profiled. Anyway, one of my major points is that the officer could have simply said "sorry for the inconvenience" in circumstances where I wasn't "wolfing" at him and it was apparent he made an error. (I stated the officer was Hispanic simply because most discussions about race always revolve around black/white) In Gates 'circumstances, even accepting as true that Gates was being loudly obnoxious, I think the officer should have walked away.

I am no bleeding heart liberal. I spent four years at DOJ defending federal law enforcement officials for alleged violations of Constitutional rights, i.e., Bivens claims (federal equivalent of the Section 1983 actions brought against state actors) so I am quite familiar with the law enforcement community and culture and have defended more than my fair share of frivolous complaints.

Fair enough...i think we agree on just about everything. I'm fully on record for saying cops have to learn to walk away as long as the public peace isn't being disturbed...and when I say peace I don't mean they have to make sure nobody is loudly angry, I mean actually dangerous. Cops have to learn to shrink that cop ego we all know they get with the gun and badge. I just feel equally as strongly that even if Gates was wronged here, he's a horrible "victim" as he really seemed to be asking for it and this racial element he is inventing sans evidence is really pis sing me off. I can't tell who I am more ticked at the cops or Gates.

[SSHoya]

Fair enough...i think we agree on just about everything. I'm fully on record for saying cops have to learn to walk away as long as the public peace isn't being disturbed...and when I say peace I don't mean they have to make sure nobody is loudly angry, I mean actually dangerous. Cops have to learn to shrink that cop ego we all know they get with the gun and badge. I just feel equally as strongly that even if Gates was wronged here, he's a horrible "victim" as he really seemed to be asking for it and this racial element he is inventing sans evidence is really pis sing me off. I can't tell who I am more ticked at the cops or Gates. [/quote]



And just for grins (and for better or worse), I believe this is still the law in Maryland, and it tells you to be a cop you'd better develop a thick skin:

Court of Appeals of Maryland.
Robert G. DIEHL
v.
STATE of Maryland.

No. 67.

294 Md. 466, 451 A.2d 115

Oct. 13, 1982.


Defendant was convicted in the Circuit Court, Washington County, John P. Corderman, J., of disorderly conduct and resisting arrest, and he appealed. On certiorari to the Court of Special Appeals, the Court of Appeals, Cole, J., held that: (1) defendant's statement “Edited you” to arresting officer was protected by the First Amendment; (2) defendant's conduct did not satisfy any elements of disorderly conduct statute; (3) defendant's statement did not constitute “fighting words” not entitled to First Amendment protection; and (4) defendant used reasonable force to resist the unlawful arrest.


Reversed.

[TC]

Jul 22, 2009 13:27:45 GMT -5 Boz said:

I'm not sure why I could only see that smaller, abbreviated report. Seems kind of silly to make that available instead of the complete report if the full report is already public (though they forgot to black out the name of the person who called 911).

Ironic tidbit that, as gawker.com says, makes this thing seem like the movie Crash - Lucia Whalen raises money for Harvard Magazine, an alumni magazine affilliated with the school.

[thebin]

Jul 22, 2009 13:58:40 GMT -5 SSHoya said:

Fair enough...i think we agree on just about everything. I'm fully on record for saying cops have to learn to walk away as long as the public peace isn't being disturbed...and when I say peace I don't mean they have to make sure nobody is loudly angry, I mean actually dangerous. Cops have to learn to shrink that cop ego we all know they get with the gun and badge. I just feel equally as strongly that even if Gates was wronged here, he's a horrible "victim" as he really seemed to be asking for it and this racial element he is inventing sans evidence is really pis sing me off. I can't tell who I am more ticked at the cops or Gates.

And just for grins (and for better or worse), I believe this is still the law in Maryland, and it tells you to be a cop you'd better develop a thick skin:

Court of Appeals of Maryland.
Robert G. DIEHL
v.
STATE of Maryland.

No. 67.

294 Md. 466, 451 A.2d 115

Oct. 13, 1982.


Defendant was convicted in the Circuit Court, Washington County, John P. Corderman, J., of disorderly conduct and resisting arrest, and he appealed. On certiorari to the Court of Special Appeals, the Court of Appeals, Cole, J., held that: (1) defendant's statement “Edited you” to arresting officer was protected by the First Amendment; (2) defendant's conduct did not satisfy any elements of disorderly conduct statute; (3) defendant's statement did not constitute “fighting words” not entitled to First Amendment protection; and (4) defendant used reasonable force to resist the unlawful arrest.


Reversed.[/quote]

That makes me smile. But then a NYPD cop who told me to "watch my language" outside of Yankee stadium after blocking me from my path to my soon- to- depart ferry cited me for disorderly conduct when I replied with the same words above. Or what I assume are the same words. Did it ryhme with "pluck you?" I intended to fight it as protected speech, but it got dismissed before my court date for reasons not stated.

[AvantGuardHoya]

Jul 22, 2009 13:02:45 GMT -5 kchoya said:

Jul 22, 2009 12:57:43 GMT -5 AvantGuardHoya said:

So small minded. I feel sorry for you.

Also, can you imagine JT2 pulling this crap. I can't.

Son, I can live without your pity. And clearly you don't know John Thompson, Jr.[/quote]

Clearly you don't either. You can see JT2 acting like an ass and saying things like "ya, I'll speak with your mama outside"

Keep hatin' on whitey, Reagan and the Republicans and living in the past as the world evolves and passes you by, bitter old man. [/quote]


You're starting to sound like those folks who continue to call John Thompson, Jr. a racist. Me hatin' on whitey?! Right. Mr. kc, I am confident that knowledge of my personal and professional background and experiences would disabuse any fair-minded and reasonable person of that notion. But, of course, you don't know me. Nor I you. Perhaps that is a pleasure we will continue to share.

As for Reagan and the Republicans, you're certainly entitled to hang on to your vision of who they were/are and what they're about. The Reagan years were not happy ones for the majority of the black community. He was not seen as a paragon of progress on the racial front. Nor, for that matter, are Republicans, in general. Perhaps you would enlighten us regarding the strides they have made in that area.

You see Skip as acting like an ass. I see a justifiably proud black man who was righteously indignant -- something that JT II amply demonstrated on more than one occasion. "I'll speak with your mama outside"? Big John is infinitely saltier than that.

Lastly, believe me, there's not a bitter bone in my body. I simply call it as I see it. Like Big John and many other black Americans, I'll never forget where I came from, nor what we've had to endure. But my gaze is firmly focused on the present and future.

[RusskyHoya]

John McWhorter - no racial hysteric he - puts down some thoughts that I think are well worth considering. A few key graphs:

"What creates the true rub is unpleasant live social encounters, and none have such potent effect as ones with the cops.

When I first started writing for the media on race, despite my initial reputation as a hidebound "black conservative" I made sure to point up how important this problem between blacks and police forces was, such as in this now ancient editorial. It was the first time I got a raft of hate mail from white people--they only wanted me to write about things black people were doing wrong. I expanded it into a chapter in my anthology of essays--and my impression is that it has been the least read of any of the chapters in that book. People seem to see the issue as somehow beside the point.

It isn't--it's a defining sentiment of a race in transition. It's behind the notorious "Stop Snitching" ideology that discourages black inner city residents from helping cops root out the thugs killing other black people. It's one of the keystone topics of "conscious" rap. It's black Harvard sociologist Lawrence Bobo, who sat with Gates at the stationhouse after his arrest, saying "Ain't nothing post-racial about the United States of America."

It's something I grappled with when I was writing the book that led to my writing on race, Losing the Race. While I was writing it, I made sure to read around, listen around, and travel around in order to make sure I wasn't missing anything in writing that black people were exaggerating about racism. As far as I was concerned, it wouldn't do to just write from my own experience.

Plus, I found the disjunction between real life (as it seemed to me) and the way so many black people pontificated too interesting to just dismiss people who didn't think like me as "crazy." They clearly weren't. What was making them say the things they were saying?

And the main thing I noticed was that what stood in the way of an open approach to progress on race was the police. I ran up against it again and again. "

[kchoya]

Jul 22, 2009 18:50:44 GMT -5 AvantGuardHoya said:

You see Skip as acting like an ass. I see a justifiably proud black man who was righteously indignant -- something that JT II amply demonstrated on more than one occasion. "I'll speak with your mama outside"? Big John is infinitely saltier than that.

What did he have to be "righteously indignant" about? Please enlighten us.

[AvantGuardHoya]

Jul 22, 2009 23:15:13 GMT -5 kchoya said:

Jul 22, 2009 18:50:44 GMT -5 AvantGuardHoya said:

You see Skip as acting like an ass. I see a justifiably proud black man who was righteously indignant -- something that JT II amply demonstrated on more than one occasion. "I'll speak with your mama outside"? Big John is infinitely saltier than that.

What did he have to be "righteously indignant" about? Please enlighten us.

Kinda pointless to try and pry your eyes open on that. You simply can't -- and won't -- see. Be well, my friend.

[SFHoya99]

Does anyone think here that they have the "real" story? Citing a police report in this instance? If the police had done anything wrong, do you think it would be in the report? If this guy was out of line, do you think he would admit it.

It's pretty absurd to stand by as if there are no racist/over-aggressive police officers or as if this guy wasn't out of line and is now trying to cover his tracks.

We'll never know, but half the posts on here apparently "know" what went down. We don't and never will.

[DanMcQ]

www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/07/23/officer_at_eye_of_storm_says_he_wont_apologize/

www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/07/23/friends_say_skip_gates_rides_no_high_horse/

www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/07/23/machismo_and_the_gates_incident/

www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20090722cop_who_arrested_henry_gates_im_not_apologizing/srvc=home&position=0

www.bostonherald.com/news/columnists/view.bg?articleid=1186568