thebin
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Post by thebin on Jul 21, 2009 18:03:03 GMT -5
Bottom line? I think if I were in Gate's shoes;
1. It's possible my neighbor might not have called the cops on me.
And
2. It's probable I would have been arrested faster and treated worse than if I were known to be a well off black intellectual.
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AvantGuardHoya
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Post by AvantGuardHoya on Jul 21, 2009 19:18:59 GMT -5
You guys are unbelievable. Clueless, too. But I knew that already.
I'll bet a few of Big John's stances must have really riled you up. The nerve of some of these colored boys!
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Post by strummer8526 on Jul 21, 2009 19:39:10 GMT -5
You guys are unbelievable. Clueless, too. But I knew that already. I'll bet a few of Big John's stances must have really riled you up. The nerve of some of these colored boys! Actually, most of Big John's stances that I'm aware of I don't have much of a problem with. But I was too young to know most of his positions. Please enlighten me as to when he has ever acted like a jackass and then blamed the repercussions on the fact that he was black.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jul 21, 2009 21:14:14 GMT -5
I don't know what the legal standard is for harassing a cop- There's not a uniform standard, but the Supreme Court has previously stated that police officers, who have extensive training and experience in dealing with combative and/or angry persons, are required to have a thicker skin than the average person WRT "fighting words." There are a lot of instances where people can/should just walk away from confrontations. That is true for officers as well. Unfortunately, that did not happen here. FWIW, I doubt any parties involved are racists. A lot of neighbors don't know each other in urban settings, and I'm sure the 911 operator asked for a description of the men "breaking into" the house. As for the cop(s), being an Edited is not the same as being a racist.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Jul 21, 2009 22:16:56 GMT -5
Wow... this thread got to two pages in one day! On the B&G board.
AGH -- My take on this after reading your link? I can not imagine a distinguished White professor being arrested and taken to the police station under similar circumstances.
And, if I just got off a long flight from China, exhausted, worn out -- and he was apparently sick too -- then the door to my house would not open? Damn! Go around to the back door, open it. Turn off the alarm. go back and try to open the front door. Finally get in. Call the management company to get the door fixed (when all I really want to do is maybe take a shower and hit the sack). Next thing you know the police show up. And -- who knows how they reacted. But the man was in his own house.
How the police were unable to settle this in a calm, professional way, even if the Harvard prof was a little agitated? That is a HUGE mystery to me. He obviously did not look like a robber. He was in his own house. He is a Nationally known professor at Harvard University. And he got arrested.
Do any of us know exactly what happened or what went through those cops minds? No, of course not. But I, for one, cannot imagine the same scenario with a highly distinguished white professor ending up being taken in the squad car down to HQ. Can any of you? Really?
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Jul 21, 2009 23:36:01 GMT -5
Yes we can Sir Saxa. People who feel free to scream at cops (even if they are justified in their anger) generally do get arrested regardless of skin pigmentation. There is a very limited amount of verbal harranguing a cop will take from anyone before they arrest them, a lesser amount generally speaking than one would think is allowed by law. That's just reality- one that irks me a great deal. Its not right but cops arrest white people just for pi ssing them off ALL the time in this country. Now maybe what you really have a hard time is imagining a white Harvard professor going off on a group of cops. But that really has nothing to do with the cops or racism in this case.
You have to be kidding if you think a Cambridge cop who already knows he was a Harvard prof then decided it was a good idea to arrest him just to show him how they treat blacks round them parts. If you had reacted as gates had, you would have been arrested faster saxa, because they would have had less to fear. You really don’t think Cambridge pd will arrest a white Harvard prof who flips out on them? It wouldn’t make the national news and lead millions to erroneous conclusions, but it could certainly happen.
The standard of evidence for racism in this country is shockingly low. Any serious of incidents whereby even slightly bad things happen to black people is pretty much all it takes for us to conclude racism prima facie. We need to move beyond that idiocy if we really want the racial harmony we claim we do. I don't know if we do though, it seems there is a large segment of even the white population that likes to make itself feel better by being so enlightened that they see purport to see racism in all manner of incidents where none necessarily exists.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Jul 22, 2009 8:12:20 GMT -5
What kind of gets me is the post interview where Gates decided that police racism was going to be his next big project. It just seems strange that it fell out fully-formed.
And it's not an exact cop analogy, but people pull the "don't you know who I *AM*" schtick every so often when dealing with TSA security. TSA has annoyed more than a few (white) members of Congress, all of whom are shown to be really petty and confrontational on video. When senators get busted, it becomes a case of "wow, they're not really the nice people they seem to be".
When I see this, I keep on taking the officer's mindset - he didn't notice this on patrol, but someone else phoned in a 911 call regarding a possible breaking and entering. With that, the comments about Gates being in his house are moot. The only questions to be left, to me, are how confrontational Gates was and whether the officer withheld name and badge number.
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TC
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Post by TC on Jul 22, 2009 9:08:16 GMT -5
How the police were unable to settle this in a calm, professional way, even if the Harvard prof was a little agitated? Or even if he was a total jerk. He was in his house. He had proved his identity. Being a world-class jerk at that point is not a crime. It's mind-boggingly stupid and petty - like the white Ron Paul campaign director who refused to say why he was carrying so much money in the airport - but it's not a crime.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Jul 22, 2009 9:14:45 GMT -5
How the police were unable to settle this in a calm, professional way, even if the Harvard prof was a little agitated? Or even if he was a total jerk. He was in his house. He had proved his identity. Being a world-class jerk at that point is not a crime. It's mind-boggingly stupid and petty - like the white Ron Paul campaign director who refused to say why he was carrying so much money in the airport - but it's not a crime. I largely agree with this. Cops seem to think they are due "respect" which they really are not legally speaking. This isn't much different to when people move from "tolerating" others practices (I'm thinking a certain Abrahamic religion that has not yet had its Reformation) to "respecting" them. Yes, I have to "tolerate" other's absurd religious beliefs. But don't you for a second tell me I have to "respect" them as well. I don't. I won't. In this way, cops have a right to not be assaulted or threatened...but they don't have a right to not be offended or embarassed. And yet....we still don't have any valid evidence at all of race playing into this incident in the slightest way. It would be nice if we could as a nation just stop assuming that part.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jul 22, 2009 10:32:31 GMT -5
I believe (can't prove) that I was "profiled' driving a BMW in Montgomery County, MD, othewise known as a bastion of political correctness. A police officer followed me over 1 mile to my house (I noticed him in my rear view mirror) and blocked my BMW in my driveway once I pulled in. I was curious/puzzled/nervous as to what was going on. He asked me for my driver's license and registration, and I complied. Upon verifying the information, he got on his radio and overhearing his conversation I discerned that he had run my plates with an incorrect letter ("I said papa, not bravo") . He handed my license and registration back to me told me "You're in the clear." No apology for the inconvenience, no explanation of why I was stopped. What wasn't clear is why he stopped me in the first place. Only after the fact did I replay the events in my head and figured if I had violated the traffic laws (speeding, running a red light) he should have stopped me on the road and not follow me to my house where my neighbors can see me be jacked up by a cop. In the clear for what? Thus, did he randonly run my plates, simply to run plates or was it because I was a minority driving a BMW?? I don't know and never will know. I do know that I was quite angry after the fact, but when dealing with the officer I was nonconfrontational as events unfolded because no good can come of that.
I agree with thebin that it would be nice as a nation if we could just stop assuming a racial angle to every unpleasant encounter; however, until it happens to you, . . .
BTW, I am Asian-American and the cop was Hispanic. I had also been a Justice Department lawyer for over 20 years when this incident occurred and resisted the urge to waive my DOJ credentials in his face.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Jul 22, 2009 10:51:43 GMT -5
You think think a Hispanic cop was overly-suspicious of Asians in general for grand theft auto or something? If he had run your plates, sounds to me like your car matched the description of a recently stolen or criminal-used car near the scene of wherever you were driving that he had just been alerted too. That hardly sounds like profiling.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jul 22, 2009 11:21:12 GMT -5
How the police were unable to settle this in a calm, professional way, even if the Harvard prof was a little agitated? Or even if he was a total jerk. He was in his house. He had proved his identity. Being a world-class jerk at that point is not a crime. It's mind-boggingly stupid and petty - like the white Ron Paul campaign director who refused to say why he was carrying so much money in the airport - but it's not a crime. Actually, it is a crime. Without looking up the actual statute or ordinance, yelling, cussing and being loud meets the requirements for disorderly conduct in most jurisdictions.** Do the police have some discretion? Yes. But I bet Gates was really laying in to them and I don't think they were in the wrong at all to charge him. ** One caveat, I've gotten some disorderly charges dismissed for clients because some statutes require a disturbance of the public, and if there are only officers around, or just the complaining witness, the "public" is not being disturbed.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jul 22, 2009 11:23:35 GMT -5
You guys are unbelievable. Clueless, too. But I knew that already. I'll bet a few of Big John's stances must have really riled you up. The nerve of some of these colored boys! So small minded. I feel sorry for you. Also, can you imagine JT2 pulling this crap. I can't.
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TC
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Post by TC on Jul 22, 2009 12:08:40 GMT -5
Without looking up the actual statute or ordinance, yelling, cussing and being loud meets the requirements for disorderly conduct in most jurisdictions.** He was loud inside (in private). I believe the police report states that he only went outside after the officer invited him to continue the conversation with him outside, even though Gates was clearly throwing a fit at that point. That's pretty close to entrapment or at least provocation - it sure isn't defusing the situation.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Jul 22, 2009 12:27:26 GMT -5
Or even if he was a total jerk. He was in his house. He had proved his identity. Being a world-class jerk at that point is not a crime. It's mind-boggingly stupid and petty - like the white Ron Paul campaign director who refused to say why he was carrying so much money in the airport - but it's not a crime. Actually, it is a crime. Without looking up the actual statute or ordinance, yelling, cussing and being loud meets the requirements for disorderly conduct in most jurisdictions.** Do the police have some discretion? Yes. But I bet Gates was really laying in to them and I don't think they were in the wrong at all to charge him. ** One caveat, I've gotten some disorderly charges dismissed for clients because some statutes require a disturbance of the public, and if there are only officers around, or just the complaining witness, the "public" is not being disturbed. I believe you KC but let's just say those are the kinds of laws I find very disturbing and that clearly impinge on 1st amendment rights in an unecessary and dangerous way if they are left to be interpreted liberally. I don't think being a jerk should be illegal, or even being a loud jerk, until you have really put other people out who are not on private property. Just my two cents. Public disturbance laws are very tricky for me. I understand their utility in a practical sense. But they just don't seem to mesh well with the strident free expresion regime that I love so much about our constitution. Given the choice, I prefer the latter to the former.
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SoCalHoya
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Post by SoCalHoya on Jul 22, 2009 12:33:19 GMT -5
I think it's tough to understand racial profiling unless you've been a victim of it. Or perhaps know someone who has been.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jul 22, 2009 12:43:43 GMT -5
[quote author=thebin board=offtopic thread=19934 post=322773 time=1248277903]You think think a Hispanic cop was overly-suspicious of Asians in general for grand theft auto or something? If he had run your plates, sounds to me like your car matched the description of a recently stolen or criminal-used car near the scene of wherever you were driving that he had just been alerted too. That hardly sounds like profiling. [/quote][/i]
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jul 22, 2009 12:44:56 GMT -5
I think it's tough to understand racial profiling unless you've been a victim of it. Or perhaps know someone who has been. 1. If you're going to take that attitude than any meaningful debate is impossible. That's a tactic that's been way overused in race discussions in this country. 2. How can you say Gates was a victim of racial profiling. LEOs received a complaint and went to investigate. It's that simple. The fact that they guys was acting like and ass and pulling the "Do you know who I am" card had nothing to do with his race, other than the fact that he brought it up.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jul 22, 2009 12:51:00 GMT -5
Without looking up the actual statute or ordinance, yelling, cussing and being loud meets the requirements for disorderly conduct in most jurisdictions.** He was loud inside (in private). I believe the police report states that he only went outside after the officer invited him to continue the conversation with him outside, even though Gates was clearly throwing a fit at that point. That's pretty close to entrapment or at least provocation - it sure isn't defusing the situation. Not to single out TC, but lots of people -- and newspapers and self-righteous columnists -- have been saying "the police report said this, the police report said that." Is there a different report available? Because the police report I saw (link below) doesn't indicate any of what I have heard over the last couple of days. Hell, this report doesn't even indicate whether he did ever, in fact, present his ID. I think it's safe to assume that happened, but certainly not WHEN it happened. It does seem to indicate that he was being disorderly outside of his home, not inside. But it definitely doesn't indicate whether or not Gates was "invited" to join the police outside, or whether he was left alone and chose to follow them outside and berate them. If the latter was the case (and I definitely don't know that it is), sorry, but he deserved to be cuffed. cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Original_PDF/2009/07/21/0721docket_redacted_revised__1248200728_6644.pdf
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AvantGuardHoya
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Post by AvantGuardHoya on Jul 22, 2009 12:57:43 GMT -5
[/quote]
So small minded. I feel sorry for you.
Also, can you imagine JT2 pulling this crap. I can't. [/quote]
Son, I can live without your pity. And clearly you don't know John Thompson, Jr.
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