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Post by centercourt400s on Jul 22, 2009 14:32:20 GMT -5
Ok, let's inject some statistics instead of speculating about attendance. The link below shows attendance statistics for the 2008 mens basketball season. Georgetown is ranked #24 in home attendance (12,955 per game), #2 in increase from the previous year (+2,514) and #17 in total attendance for all games (484,930). web1.ncaa.org/web_files/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2008.pdfMake what you want of them but these numbers don't speak to an apathetic fan base or a low national profile.
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robbyt
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Post by robbyt on Jul 22, 2009 16:58:46 GMT -5
The problem with the original post is that it's a one note tune and has no nuance, but there is truth in it. I also was raised a Hoya and went to Georgetown, during the Zo and Iverson era, and was really, really disappointed in terms of student fans (I had more at my high school games) and overall underachievement -- we had a team with 4 future NBA players and only made the round of eight.
John Thompson *squandered* big time the huge national reputation Gtown gained by going to the NCAA finals 3 times because of one fact: he was a crappy coach. He had some great players and worked them hard, but he was not a great or even a good Xs and Os coach--at all. He is chiefly a personality, does a great talk show.
Pops won originally because of his personality, not his coaching prowess. His personality brought in great players. His personality gave the team a raw edge. Then he lost his edge, and the team slid right out of the picture.
However, Georgetown carved an indelible niche in college basketball during the Ewing era and due to the multitude of NBA players that have come through.
Then, the potential that JTIII brought back was to
a) regain a national reputation and b) not squander it like pops but leverage it, having learned the lesson that you have to be a good coach, not just a personality
So to the original poster, I would say you are looking at the present impasse when in fact the story is the future that we are building toward. Nobody I know is arguing that Georgetown is a top 10 program, but who can deny that they had 4 McDonald's All Americans on their team last year--how could this be possible without being a nationally known team?
The last five years are a beginning. We are once again definitely a nationally known team. The question now is whether we will throw away the reputation we have gained like before or build on it. And the answer to that really lies in JTIII's coaching abilities--if he shows he can fix the problems with the team X's and O's - wise, recruits will be lining up to come to Georgetown.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Jul 22, 2009 17:03:53 GMT -5
robby i'm sure there are plenty people on this board including myself who vehemently disagree with your opinion of Pops as a coach.
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hoyaalf
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Post by hoyaalf on Jul 22, 2009 18:39:23 GMT -5
I don't think Big John was a great game coach either, however he leveraged his recruiting, motivational, and practice coaching into quite a brand name which he's still marketing.
Good for him.
Btw, he DID win a national championship ... but so did Rollie Massimino.
And now I have one more post than robbyt!
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Jul 22, 2009 20:29:05 GMT -5
robby i'm sure there are plenty people on this board including myself who vehemently disagree with your opinion of Pops as a coach. And plenty who will agree. I was at GU during Pops' reign. Great man; great motivator; great recruiter when he was interested; great defenses, of which he was the architect. Great game coach? Not so much. I pretty much agree with RobbyT's post. However, it's a bit of a stretch to say Pops squandered anything, when he single-handedly put GU on the college basketball map and made it to 3 Final Fours in 4 year, including one NC. I think the central point is that he kind of lost interest and did not capitalize on the momentum the program had. Glad JTIII is here, and I agree that this is only the beginning.
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Post by bicentennial on Jul 22, 2009 21:30:58 GMT -5
I think JTII(Pops) was a great motivator who put together great teams. I feel he became distracted from the game on the court when he started being an advocate for student athletes a role he continues on his talk shoe. Some time during the late 80's or early 90's perhaps around the time Father Healy died he became more of a spokesman on college basketball than the great coach he had been in the early 80's. At this point in his career JTIII seems very comfortable being Coach and allowing his father to have the national opinions. When we talk about how great many of our former players have become in their philanthropic efforts, I believe we should be thankful for our coaches who clearly know their job is about instilling values and expecting their players to get an education while at Georgetown.
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Post by jkhoya12 on Jul 22, 2009 23:08:18 GMT -5
It doesn't matter whether you think he was a great X's and O's coach or whatever. The time to argue about that was a while ago. Stop criticizing a legend on some talk board. And btw, he can't hear you cause of that trophy in his ear....also, since he still impacts the program today, I credit him with some of our success since JTIII has taken over.
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Jul 22, 2009 23:13:23 GMT -5
And btw, he can't hear you cause of that trophy in his ear That line requires this completely irrelevant, but still classic clip:
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jul 23, 2009 1:35:59 GMT -5
Anyone that thinks Pops couldn't coach didn't watch a lot of Georgetown basketball.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jul 23, 2009 8:01:07 GMT -5
Stig... that was awesome. Cleared away some cobwebs. I'm gonna have to second the nomination for pash for "Post of the Offseason."
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Jul 23, 2009 8:13:07 GMT -5
One word: DEFENSE
If you don't think Pops was a great coach, you probably don't think D is that big a deal. You probably haven't realized that a large part of our decline last year was related to less effetive defense. You should have gone to a different school because GTown always has and always will build its teams on D.
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Post by screamingcorn on Jul 23, 2009 11:33:41 GMT -5
so the original poster doesn't think GTown has a national following?
Then how could I possibly be a diehard Hoya fan? I never went to the school, and I am not from the DC area.
How is it that I can watch games in a bar in Orlando, FL with a few other Hoya fans? Oh, by the way....none of them ever attended the university.
Granted my example can't statistically represent the entire country. But it has as much statistical significance as the original poster's observations.
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Post by vamosalaplaya on Jul 23, 2009 11:48:05 GMT -5
Private universities everywhere have a trouble with their fan base. I think the ACC really screwed up by taking Boston College - as if Boston fans were going to care about the ACC because BC was in the league - BC alums would care about the ACC. UConn would have been a much better pick - heck I would guess there are more UConn alums in Boston than BC alums.
Big state schools attract fans who didn't go there; that doesn't happen often with private schools. Notre Dame is the major historical exception, and who knows how many folks under the age of 50 who didn't go to Notre Dame care about Notre Dame anymore - that brand is dying, they haven't been good in football in 15 years.
As alluded to, Georgetown's profile over the years makes it one of the few teams that has attracted non-alumni fans.
In light of its status as an academically competitive school with a small student body, the overall attendance numbers for Georgetown are terrific. And having been at the UNC-GU Final 8 game, where 8-10,000 rabid GU fans out-shouted the UNC contingent - GU can still draw when they are competitive.
More than that - GU's style of play (up until last season - when it devolved pretty badly) was widely admired among many basketball fans I know. Team play, clutch shooting, ball movement, etc - it was really elegant. GU was a sentimental favorite for alot of neutral fans due to the unselfish nature of the team.
Like all private schools - Duke among them - the Hoyas need to be good to get attention. But I think they are very well placed relative to other programs.
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tjm62
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Post by tjm62 on Jul 23, 2009 12:03:42 GMT -5
I know I feel better about the program already after reading these impassioned defenses of the program!
As a recent graduate, I can say that I am excited and looking forward to decades and decades of Georgetown Basketball.
At the end of the day, there is no school in the country (perhaps with the exception of Stanford) that manages to have both tremendous academics and a tremendous basketball program. Look around the Tournament every year, and there is never a single school I would rather have attended. Big East Championships, final fours, and the knowledge that our program will continue to be a good one, are just icing on the cake.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Jul 23, 2009 12:29:44 GMT -5
Anyone that thinks Pops couldn't coach didn't watch a lot of Georgetown basketball. can we please end this thread with SFs quote it says all that needs to be said.
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hoyaalf
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Post by hoyaalf on Jul 23, 2009 13:10:09 GMT -5
"Anyone that thinks Pops couldn't coach didn't watch a lot of Georgetown basketball."
Well, then I guess I was watching Georgetown of Kentucky.
Yes, Big John's teams played intense defense. He prepared big guys well.
Tommy O'Keefe's record would have been a lot better if he had Pat, etc., but neither he nor Jack Magee were permitted the inclusuve recruiting practices which Big John demanded. That may be his greatest and longest lasting contribution to the program.
Now you can end your bloody post.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Jul 23, 2009 13:46:34 GMT -5
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Post by centercourt400s on Jul 23, 2009 14:09:47 GMT -5
You've got to wonder about the thinking process that leads to someone proclaiming that Pops was "a crappy coach". The only thing that makes sense is that the poster is trolling because there is simply no evidence to back up the statement and a huge preponderance of evidence against it. Witness:
122–28 record as a high school coach 596–239 (.715) record at Georgetown Big East Regular Season Championships in 1980, 1984, 1987, 1989, 1992 Big East Tournament Championships in 1980, 1982, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1989 NCAA Regional Championships - Final Fours in 1982, 1984, 1985 NCAA Championship in 1984 Inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame on October 1, 1999
Did he lose focus at the end of his career? Arguably. But to deride his coaching ability is simply ridiculous.
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hoyaalf
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Post by hoyaalf on Jul 23, 2009 14:36:10 GMT -5
Nothing that happens at the dome of the Rock interests me.
I knew guys who transferred from there to GU but have never heard of anyone going the other way.
Caring about what ND thinks is like caring about whatv Duke thinks. It's not relevant to human experience.
ND? Please. Really.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Jul 23, 2009 14:50:34 GMT -5
Nothing that happens at the dome of the Rock interests me. I knew guys who transferred from there to GU but have never heard of anyone going the other way. Caring about what ND thinks is like caring about whatv Duke thinks. It's not relevant to human experience. ND? Please. Really. my point was that even their pathetic, hardly used hoops message board found humor in this thread that's saying something
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