DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 32,024
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 2:29:55 GMT -5
Post by DanMcQ on Mar 12, 2009 2:29:55 GMT -5
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HoyaFanNY
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Never throw to the venus on a spider 3 Y banana!
Posts: 4,995
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 5:58:56 GMT -5
Post by HoyaFanNY on Mar 12, 2009 5:58:56 GMT -5
inexperience is a lame excuse. wvu is just as inexperienced as we are and look at what they've done. why? because their upperclassmen (ruoff and butler) stepped up and EVERYONE bought into playing defense and being unselfish on offense. say what you want about huggins, but he got these kids to buy into his system and win, through fear or whatever, it worked.
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 6:37:43 GMT -5
Post by hoyas big supporter on Mar 12, 2009 6:37:43 GMT -5
I completely agree that youth is not an excuse but there are about three times as many upperclassman on their roster (6)
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 7:02:59 GMT -5
Post by hoyaheaven on Mar 12, 2009 7:02:59 GMT -5
"Monroe and other key young players may have hit the proverbial “freshman wall” of fatigue. It's also possible that Georgetown's Princeton-based offense, which relies on its players' near-instantaneous read-and-react abilities, is too complex and counter-instinctive for younger players." (Barker Davis)
Please explain: How come everybody in the known universe is openly suspect about the Princeton Offense...except the Coach!!
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 7:12:47 GMT -5
Post by Giannicolus Jones on Mar 12, 2009 7:12:47 GMT -5
I think what Barker is saying is that the Offense takes time to get used to. He's not suggesting they scrap it, but that the inexperience is magnified when you have a more counter-instinctive offense. These players are good at basketball, and they're being asked to play in a way that they are not used to. Thompson's first team had a rough year and they also faded down the stretch, but as they matured, they became more comfortable in the offense and were one of the best teams in the country.
Will that happen again, I don't know, but that's what I think Barker is getting at, not that the offense stinks.
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theexorcist
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,506
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 7:40:41 GMT -5
Post by theexorcist on Mar 12, 2009 7:40:41 GMT -5
"Monroe and other key young players may have hit the proverbial “freshman wall” of fatigue. It's also possible that Georgetown's Princeton-based offense, which relies on its players' near-instantaneous read-and-react abilities, is too complex and counter-instinctive for younger players." (Barker Davis) Please explain: How come everybody in the known universe is openly suspect about the Princeton Offense...except the Coach!! Everyone may be suspect about the Princeton offense as it relates to YOUNGER PLAYERS. That leads to a question - do you junk the system this year and install a different one? I say no. In the pre-season, the assumption was that this was a middle-of-the-pack Big East team that would make the NCAAs, not a championship contender. Assuming that everyone is more familiar with the offense next year and no one transfers or goes pro, there's a lot of experience that can put the Hoyas right back into the national championship mix. I really REALLY liked our Final Four run two years ago. I'd much rather prefer a Final Four run than a Sweet 16 run, even if it meant that the Hoyas made the NCAAs this year.
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RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,813
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 7:46:22 GMT -5
Post by RusskyHoya on Mar 12, 2009 7:46:22 GMT -5
I think an instructive comparison might be the Triangle Offense. It's notoriously difficult for younger players to learn, which is one reason why rookies and other young players typically get so little playing time on Phil Jackson's teams. Look at Adam Morrison, who's gone from regular and at times extensive playing time with Charlotte to somewhere between DNP-CD and 3 minutes per game with the Lakers. And yet, no one seems to be calling for Phil to ditch his system.
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 7:53:58 GMT -5
Post by mississippihoya on Mar 12, 2009 7:53:58 GMT -5
It seems that coach fully realizes the problems our offensive system gives younger players. This understanding is probably what lead him to try and get Hollis to come in early. Hopefully, since Hollis has had longer to practice the offense, he won't have as hard a time next season.
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 8:07:30 GMT -5
Post by dcc33 on Mar 12, 2009 8:07:30 GMT -5
" And moments after collecting the Big East's rookie of the year honor, Monroe said he “definitely” will return for his sophomore season"
Thats by far the key to the teams success next year. Good to hear.
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 8:17:57 GMT -5
Post by Gold Coast Hoya on Mar 12, 2009 8:17:57 GMT -5
IMHO our style of play will hurt our recruiting efforts. I just can't see many more top-notch recruits buying into a system that does not allow them to play as aggressive or insticntive as they would like. I don't see many more Greg Monroe's in the recruiting pipeline. I hope I am wrong but have grave concerns.
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theexorcist
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,506
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 8:35:47 GMT -5
Post by theexorcist on Mar 12, 2009 8:35:47 GMT -5
IMHO our style of play will hurt our recruiting efforts. I just can't see many more top-notch recruits buying into a system that does not allow them to play as aggressive or insticntive as they would like. I don't see many more Greg Monroe's in the recruiting pipeline. I hope I am wrong but have grave concerns. This concern I can buy. With that said, I'm cool with it. People playing as "aggressively or instinctively as they would like" is a recipe for bad basketball. I still think that a good team beats great players.
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Dhall
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,679
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 8:36:48 GMT -5
Post by Dhall on Mar 12, 2009 8:36:48 GMT -5
IMHO our style of play will hurt our recruiting efforts. I just can't see many more top-notch recruits buying into a system that does not allow them to play as aggressive or insticntive as they would like. I don't see many more Greg Monroe's in the recruiting pipeline. I hope I am wrong but have grave concerns. Exactly. What high school kid in his right mind wants to go to a program that has produced 2 Big East rookies of the year and the Big East player of the year (who left early to be drafted #5)recently? I have been saying all year that the problem was defense, not offense. Look at the stats of the games we lost to quality teams. Will the existing players become better defensive players next year? Probably a little bit, but JTIII needs to consider going with a bigger/stronger lineup that might include Monroe plus either Vaughn or Sims. That way, when opponents blow by our guards there is at least someone there to foul them or cause some disruption. Monroe was left by himself too often to defend two people in the paint and he's just not going to have success trying to do that.
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 8:43:09 GMT -5
Post by strummer8526 on Mar 12, 2009 8:43:09 GMT -5
IMHO our style of play will hurt our recruiting efforts. I just can't see many more top-notch recruits buying into a system that does not allow them to play as aggressive or insticntive as they would like. I don't see many more Greg Monroe's in the recruiting pipeline. I hope I am wrong but have grave concerns. Exactly. What high school kid in his right mind wants to go to a program that has produced 2 Big East rookies of the year and the Big East player of the year (who left early to be drafted #5)recently? I have been saying all year that the problem was defense, not offense. Look at the stats of the games we lost to quality teams. Will the existing players become better defensive players next year? Probably a little bit, but JTIII needs to consider going with a bigger/stronger lineup that might include Monroe plus either Vaughn or Sims. That way, when opponents blow by our guards there is at least someone there to foul them or cause some disruption. Monroe was left by himself too often to defend two people in the paint and he's just not going to have success trying to do that. Exactly! I always wanted to see Macklin on the floor w/ Hibbert more. Now, my problem is that I want to see more Sims w/ Monroe. Those two seemed to be developing a nice chemistry. Sims has shown a shot-blocking ability. I think that his development will be huge, and if he and Monroe get time together, we're a substantially better defensive team.
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vagrant
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 182
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 8:50:08 GMT -5
Post by vagrant on Mar 12, 2009 8:50:08 GMT -5
When he first came on board, III said that it usu. took 1.5 years to really learn the offense. With 3 or 4 experienced players on the court you could hide the inexperience of 1 or 2 freshman. We were playing a group that was still learning the system at most times. DS doesn't appear to have gotten it, CW, Nikita, are basically first year guys, and Sapp??? They will get it next year. Let's give them time. The problem with the Princeton is not its complexity, the problem is that you need players who stay. The vets help the frosh. If we have turnover, we never establish that core group of guys who are well versed in the offense.
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GPHoya
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 466
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 9:16:09 GMT -5
Post by GPHoya on Mar 12, 2009 9:16:09 GMT -5
Only semi-news here is that Barker is stating an expectation that everyone will be coming back rather than speculating about departures. Time will tell, but one could have imagined defections based on both personal and teamwide disappointment. The sharing of minutes and opportunities this year could leave nearly everyone with a belief that they could get more time next year by improving. No one should lack motivation.
This was unquestionably a disappointing year, but not so much as to take my faith in the coaching staff and the direction of the program back to square one as some have suggested. My memory is just not that short nor is my sense of gratitude that limited. JT III knows basketball and he is an incredibly hard worker who is driven to succeed. He has a sustainable leadership style and, aside from a blip in his first recruiting class, he is going about things in a way that is compatable with Georgetown's values. I remain convinced that we could not have a better person coaching our team and that he will be viewed at the end of his career as one of the elite college coaches. It is easy to be loyal to a coach when things are going great, but to expect the loyalty to be reciprocated, it is surely more important for the institution and its fan base to express confidence and support even as we are caught by surprise by the setback this year.
Of course, people are entitled to their views on any subject and many of the criticisms I have read here strike me as constructive and worthy of consideration. The views that advocate that we throw out the basic approach and justify their views by diminishing past accomplishments are less attractive to me and strike me as less mature and reflective. I presume that no one has said anything intelligent here that JT III has not already considered and that he and his staff will engage in some thoughtful self-reflection on what went wrong and needs to be done differently next year. That is certainly part of the additional experience factor that I expect will produce substantially better results next year. Recruiting a bruising power forward and tapping into and better motivating the competitive core of the returning base will surely help and strike me as the major challenges.
I remember being pretty disappointed by the sophomore year of Ewing, Martin, and Jones and thought that group should have done more with such promising freshman as Jackson, Wingate, Broadnax and Dalton and capable juniors as Brown and Gene Smith. That group lost ten games (including to American), bowed out to Syracuse in the opening round of the Big East and lost to Memphis State in the second round of the NCAA.Things straightened out pretty quickly when Michael Graham and Reggie Williams showed up the next year and underclassmen figured out how to fill the leadership void that Eric Smith and Floyd had left behind. We talk about the talent of this year's team, but consider the players on the 83 and 84 teams if you want some perspective.
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idhoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,177
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 9:16:22 GMT -5
Post by idhoya on Mar 12, 2009 9:16:22 GMT -5
Anyone seen Austin lately?
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hoyaboy1
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,346
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 9:20:21 GMT -5
Post by hoyaboy1 on Mar 12, 2009 9:20:21 GMT -5
I think an instructive comparison might be the Triangle Offense. It's notoriously difficult for younger players to learn, which is one reason why rookies and other young players typically get so little playing time on Phil Jackson's teams. Look at Adam Morrison, who's gone from regular and at times extensive playing time with Charlotte to somewhere between DNP-CD and 3 minutes per game with the Lakers. And yet, no one seems to be calling for Phil to ditch his system. This isn't really a good comparison, since NBA teams will tend to have mroe experienced players (and will rarely control their best players for only 1-2 years), and because Adam Morrison is one of the worst players in the NBA. If it really does take multiple seasons for players to operate efficiently in this offense (which I don't really buy), it better be the best offensive scheme in the country. Otherwise we would be trading inefficiency for players' early years without any gains over other offenses in later years.
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 9:24:46 GMT -5
Post by FHillsNYHoya on Mar 12, 2009 9:24:46 GMT -5
To be fair to Phil Jackson, the guy's won a quite a few championships - anyone calling for him to ditch the system should be committed.
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 9:25:40 GMT -5
Post by centercourt400s on Mar 12, 2009 9:25:40 GMT -5
The problem with the Princeton is not its complexity, the problem is that you need players who stay. The vets help the frosh. If we have turnover, we never establish that core group of guys who are well versed in the offense. Bingo. We had too much turnover this year and our offense can't take that. III needs to keep a consistent mix of experienced players on the team or we will see similar results from time to time.
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 9:32:19 GMT -5
Post by formerbearcat on Mar 12, 2009 9:32:19 GMT -5
I attended the BET games last evening, a picked up a copy of the 2009 Big East Media Guide.
Here are GU's statistics for the 2008 -09 Big East Conference Regular Season
Scoring Offenses 69.6 points per game Rank 11 Scoring Margin +6.0 Rank 8 Field Goal Percentage .469 Rank 4 Scoring Defense 63.5 points per game Rank 4 Free Throw % .710 Rank 5 Field Goal % - def .402 Rank 3 Three Point % .333 Rank 9 Rebounding - Off 10.07 per game Rank 16 Rebounding Margin -0.5 Rank 13 3 Point FG % .316 Rank 7 Rebounding - Def 22.9 per game Rank 14 Blocked Shots 3.86 per game Rank 7 Assists 13.86 per game Rank 11 Turnover Margin -0.10 Rank 10 Steals 7.97 per game Rank 5 Assists/Turnover Ratio 0.95 Rank 13
Clearly, rebounding, both on the offensive end and defensive end was an issue.
I was also surprised that GU ranked #11 in assists.
What is odd is that GU was #4 in field goal percentage, but # 11 in scoring. That is function of tempo and offensive rebouding, few second chance points.
Based upon these numbers, there is room for a great deal of improvement.
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