EtomicB
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Mar 12, 2009 13:19:36 GMT -5
Post by EtomicB on Mar 12, 2009 13:19:36 GMT -5
Henry isn't that good right now. thats why Coach didn't stick with him. There isn't much he can do. I don't know what the obession is with Henry. But he is another Macklin right now. He'll have 3 more years to develop into a player. But there isn't much Sims can do at all. He can't defend in the post, and he can't fit into the offense. Thats why he didn't play much. Jason is raw too, but not that raw. He gives at least something when he is out on the court. Same with Vaughn. Henry is a project right now, that needs serious development. The upside is that he has good athleticism and moves well. Now he needs to be coached up and developed. I am with you _way, I do not get the Henry thing. Kid is FULL of upside, but he is not ready right now. I think he may make the biggest leap next year from this year and we will be much, much better off for it! But for now, it seems obvious he is a little lost at times, which you really could not afford this season. Hey, I don't feel Henry is the next coming of Tim Duncan or that he should play 25+ a game. However he is a better option to me than going smaller with Omar like earlier in the season or bigger with Julian. How can you see his potential and or upside but not want him to play more? That's what I don't get. Are you scared he's going to bog down the offense? Turn the ball over? Game experience helps so much more than practice or off season drills and summer league. You have to admit he has played better, not perfect but better as the year has gone on, he played a solid game on Tuesday and if they go to the NIT. I hope he gets 15+ mins a game. Also "Way" his defense isn't any worse than Dujuan's or Nikita's or Austin's or Omar's ect.... Let him use up his 5 fouls like the rest of our frontline.
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CAHoya07
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Mar 12, 2009 13:20:04 GMT -5
Post by CAHoya07 on Mar 12, 2009 13:20:04 GMT -5
I think all posts telling JT III to scrap the Princeton Offense should be ignored, because it's a moot point. This is the offense that JT III runs, he's not going to abandon it.
What JT III CAN and SHOULD do from year to year is TWEAK the offense to the strengths and abilities of his personnel at the time, and I think he did a very poor job of doing that this year. For example, I think we were more athletic this year than in years' past, with Wright, Monroe, Summers, etc. We should have been a much better fast-breaking team. I think we showed some of that in the beginning of the season, but down the stretch, we did not. We missed a lot of great scoring opportunities there.
I agree that defense and rebounding may have done us in more than the offense, but I'm tired of the posts about completely scrapping the offense. What JT III needs to learn to do is adapt the offense to his players, and I think that is one of the most pivotal things in this program continuing to go forward.
"What hurt us this year hopefully will help us next year," says JT III in the last sentence of the article. If we only lose Jessie, and bring in Hollis and hopefully one more big man/banger/rebounder type, I think we will be much better and more consistent next year, more like what we saw at the beginning of the season. Considering the amount of transfers we've had the past few seasons, that is a big IF. However, with DaJuan and Greg already stating that they intend to return, one can only hope that no one transfers after a frustrating and tumultuous 08-09 campaign. We need everyone back, including Nikita and Omar. Everyone.
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the_way
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Mar 12, 2009 13:29:47 GMT -5
Post by the_way on Mar 12, 2009 13:29:47 GMT -5
I am with you _way, I do not get the Henry thing. Kid is FULL of upside, but he is not ready right now. I think he may make the biggest leap next year from this year and we will be much, much better off for it! But for now, it seems obvious he is a little lost at times, which you really could not afford this season. Hey, I don't feel Henry is the next coming of Tim Duncan or that he should play 25+ a game. However he is a better option to me than going smaller with Omar like earlier in the season or bigger with Julian. How can you see his potential and or upside but not want him to play more? That's what I don't get. Are you scared he's going to bog down the offense? Turn the ball over? Game experience helps so much more than practice or off season drills and summer league. You have to admit he has played better, not perfect but better as the year has gone on, he played a solid game on Tuesday and if they go to the NIT. I hope he gets 15+ mins a game. Also "Way" his defense isn't any worse than Dujuan's or Nikita's or Austin's or Omar's ect.... Let him use up his 5 fouls like the rest of our frontline. Henry can't really play. Nikita, and Omar give more to the team than Henry can even provide this point. Vaughn can too. Vaughn does have some nice offensive moves down-low in the post. More than even Greg. Vaughn can also play a little physical in the paint. More than even Greg. Vaughn is the only legit big we have on our roster. Right now, Henry does not have a position. He isn't a C, he is not a PF, he is not a SF. He doesn't have enough of a skill set to determine what he is. He needs time to develop. Henry is extremely raw. He is a liability of sorts. Opposing teams know he can't do much on either end of the court. The best thing for Henry was what III did with him, get him some time on the court to at least get his feet wet, but at the same time not hurt the team altogether.
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swhoya
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Mar 12, 2009 13:35:03 GMT -5
Post by swhoya on Mar 12, 2009 13:35:03 GMT -5
Not to bring up a sore point, but I wasn't able to watch the St. John's game live. For a few minute stretch there, the news feed made it appear that Sims was doing ok defensively--or at least he had a string of blocks. Can someone provide some context for what actually happened?
Same with Greg--several more blocks from him than I'm accustomed to seeing.
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the_way
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Mar 12, 2009 13:45:10 GMT -5
Post by the_way on Mar 12, 2009 13:45:10 GMT -5
Not to bring up a sore point, but I wasn't able to watch the St. John's game live. For a few minute stretch there, the news feed made it appear that Sims was doing ok defensively--or at least he had a string of blocks. Can someone provide some context for what actually happened? Same with Greg--several more blocks from him than I'm accustomed to seeing. we didn't win, so how much of a help was it?
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swhoya
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Mar 12, 2009 13:47:03 GMT -5
Post by swhoya on Mar 12, 2009 13:47:03 GMT -5
That's not the point. I was asking for a bit of objective analysis of what happened since I wasn't able to watch. It didn't help us win THAT game, but it might in the future. Maybe they just got beat off the dribble and got some "cheap" blocks from behind. That's what I'm trying to understand.
Maybe it was just an abnormality, maybe it was a sign of something Sims can develop into. If you don't have something to contribute to the question, why respond?
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NCHoya
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Mar 12, 2009 13:47:48 GMT -5
Post by NCHoya on Mar 12, 2009 13:47:48 GMT -5
The offense is much more complicated than most as it is very much based on spacing. The cuts are available because a defender makes a slight step and loses a step on the offensive player, assuming that the other offensive players recognize this and have drawn their defenders away from passing lanes and away from the basket. The result is an uncontested layup. If the defenders shift to cut this off, it tends to result in an uncontested three. Thus, the theory of the offense is tend to pressure the defense for 25 seconds and hope for a small misstep leading to either of these outcomes. If it does not open up, then we revert to a more traditional offense of sorts requiring someone to make a play on their own. The basic problem with this is that while we punish defenders who are out of position, if our offensive players are slightly out of position it does not work. The small differences in spacing make or break the offense and players must learn how to react to what other players on our side are doing. We had our own troubles with spacing as players were learning to adapt to the system and each other. However, due to our lack of three point shooting and some of Greg's offensive limitations this year, it became much easier for teams to pack it in on defense and try to limit our ability to get spacing. If we cannot stretch teams out to play defense to the three point line, we will struggle more on offense. The Princeton offense is brilliant in that it takes the two shots in basketball with the highest expected point value--layups and open threes--and makes that the cornerstone of the offense. For each layup attempted the result should be somewhere near two points and each open three somewhere near 1.4 points. The problem is that a layup is much tougher to get than an open three as it generally requires a tough/risky pass, which is not likely to always go through. For example, Jeff tended to have a fairly high number of turnovers each game, but these tended to be good turnovers in a sense. They were often trying to feed a guy driving for a layup. If it goes through, we get two points automatically, meaning it is a risk worth taking if it has say a 70% chance of getting to the recipient. Thus, the expected value if actually more like 1.4 points from a layup taking the risk of a turnover into account. In the end, this system really is a form of offensive genius. If properly run, it results in the highest possible value of points for each shot taken. Invariably, not every possession will end this way and there will be silly turnovers, resulting in a lower value of points per shot, but the upside is that while we score fewer points overall, it results in a higher point per possession. The downside is that it requires patience to learn and players with the necessary skills. It is very helpful if all players can shoot reasonably from the three and are good passers. Players also must have a high basketball IQ to make it work. If these things fall into place, then there is really no better offensive system. If they don't, then there is a season of frustration as it results in neither easy layups or open threes. As for recruiting, I don't think we are hurt at all by the system. If players want to make the NBA, this system requires them to be efficient scorers, understand spacing, and to be able to handle the ball (dribbling and passing) from all positions on the floor. These are all very important skills to succeed in the long run at the higher level, especially for more complex offenses like Phil Jackson's. We can't compete for every top recruit, but nor do we want to. Tyreke Evans or OJ Mayo would be a disaster for this system as one player can destroy it. However, if we get very intelligent and unselfish recruits with a variety of skills, we will succeed with time. Some will succeed earlier, such as Jeff and Jon and I hope Hollis, but for others it takes more time. Regardless, everyone becomes a better basketball player. It may not result in flashy stats at the college level, but these things are evident to scouts at the next level. If players and fans are patient, most years we will have a very potent offensive team. This was not our year for a variety of reasons which have all been cited. Our offense didn't produce enough points to get out ahead of teams as in years past. Moreover, our youth/inexperience certainly showed over the last few minutes of many games this year. In years past Jeff, Jon, Roy, Pat, and Jessie always stepped up at the end of games and this year it just wasn't there. To be successful that must develop in the future, but also it comes out of confidence in the offensive system. If we think we can score each possession, players are not scared to take the shot down the stretch. Give it some time. There will be down years when we don't run the system and lack some leadership, but with the right mix of guys who are committed to the system, we will be very good in most years. The past results show that when run properly, the system works. This is REQUIRED reading for anyone who dismisses the Princeton O. Adlai, thank you for writing what I much less eloquently tried to write earlier. In my mind, the Princeton O is worth the effort and the occasional down year.
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guru
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Mar 12, 2009 13:48:36 GMT -5
Post by guru on Mar 12, 2009 13:48:36 GMT -5
Big East games only (from Hoya Prospectus, linked to by freemoney): Player Min On Off On/40 Off/40 Net/40 Summers, DaJuan 449:44 - 55 + 26 - 4.9 + 6.5 -11.4 Freeman, Austin 494:08 - 42 + 13 - 3.4 + 4.5 - 7.9 Monroe, Greg 496:01 + 52 - 81 + 4.2 -28.4 +32.6 Wright, Chris 506:27 + 1 - 30 + 0.1 -11.6 +11.7 Sapp, Jessie 366:32 - 10 - 19 - 1.1 - 3.1 + 2.0 Clark, Jason 257:56 - 52 + 23 - 8.1 + 2.6 -10.7 Vaughn, Julian 102:39 - 65 + 36 -25.3 + 2.8 -28.2 Sims, Henry 98:57 + 27 - 56 +10.9 - 4.4 +15.3 Wattad, Omar 102:14 + 9 - 38 + 3.5 - 3.0 + 6.5 Mescheriakov, Nikita 175:22 - 10 - 19 - 2.3 - 1.7 - 0.5 I know, I know. There are all sorts of statistical reasons that my conclusion is wrong. The math is not sound. I'm not over here crunching numbers. But someone explain to me how Henry doesn't look like a damn good option, especially compared to Nikita. And Vaughn should probably not touch the floor anymore until he can hold onto the basketball. Austin and Dajuan also a major problem. Wow - I'm surprised those numbers reflect so badly on Vaughn. I thought he was OK when he was in, and at least he pretended like he was interested in rebounding. Sims should definitely have gotten more run. And these numbers just reinforce a feeling I have about this group: I'm not sure this team wouldn't have been better off without DaJuan Summers this season (especially the Big East season). Would have given our younger players more room and PT to develop, and Summers didn't even seem to want to be out there most of the time. A 6-9 front court player who refuses to rebound and is in love with an unreliable three point shot is not going to add to success.
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the_way
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Mar 12, 2009 13:52:28 GMT -5
Post by the_way on Mar 12, 2009 13:52:28 GMT -5
That's not the point. I was asking for a bit of objective analysis of what happened since I wasn't able to watch. It didn't help us win THAT game, but it might in the future. Maybe they just got beat off the dribble and got some "cheap" blocks from behind. That's what I'm trying to understand. Maybe it was just an abnormality, maybe it was a sign of something Sims can develop into. If you don't have something to contribute to the question, why respond? I contributed. You didn't like my answer.
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swhoya
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Mar 12, 2009 13:55:04 GMT -5
Post by swhoya on Mar 12, 2009 13:55:04 GMT -5
Huh. Ok. Yeah, actually watching and describing what happens if it doesn't fit your "ideas" isn't your strong suit, I take it. You should try reading the question before thinking you have the answer.
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bmartin
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Mar 12, 2009 13:55:49 GMT -5
Post by bmartin on Mar 12, 2009 13:55:49 GMT -5
Regarding Henry's +/- in league play, I agree he did okay but the 40 minute figures are misleading. Henry did not get a consistent number of minutes in each game. When he was helping the team, JTIII left him in the game for longer stretches. When he was overmatched or lost, he came out of the game. The distribution of minutes biased the sample. You can't pretend he would have had the same + numbers if he had played 30 minutes against Pitt and Louisville.
He generally came in for DaJuan. DaJuan's +/- numbers are the larger concern.
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 13:56:25 GMT -5
Post by williambraskyiii on Mar 12, 2009 13:56:25 GMT -5
That's not the point. I was asking for a bit of objective analysis of what happened since I wasn't able to watch. It didn't help us win THAT game, but it might in the future. Maybe they just got beat off the dribble and got some "cheap" blocks from behind. That's what I'm trying to understand. Maybe it was just an abnormality, maybe it was a sign of something Sims can develop into. If you don't have something to contribute to the question, why respond? I contributed. You didn't like my answer. dude, why are you such a hater? Your anti-Greg, anti-Henry schtick is getting really old. Everyone understands your position...why don't you creep back into that deep, dark hole from which you came, you trolling windbag.
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the_way
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Mar 12, 2009 13:57:05 GMT -5
Post by the_way on Mar 12, 2009 13:57:05 GMT -5
Huh. Ok. Yeah, actually watching and describing what happens if it doesn't fit your "ideas" isn't your strong suit, I take it. You should try reading the question before thinking you have the answer. You should try not getting e-motional over a discussion about basketball. Its not that serious.
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the_way
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Mar 12, 2009 14:00:50 GMT -5
Post by the_way on Mar 12, 2009 14:00:50 GMT -5
I contributed. You didn't like my answer. dude, why are you such a hater? Your anti-Greg, anti-Henry schtick is getting really old. Everyone understands your position...why don't you creep back into that deep, dark hole from which you came, you trolling windbag. The only "schtick" that is getting old is you and a few others who get e-motional over what i say. Others don't have a problem, and we have debates and agree and agree to disagree. They don't seem to have a problem. But you and a few others do. That is something you need to work through yourself.
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swhoya
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Mar 12, 2009 14:04:16 GMT -5
Post by swhoya on Mar 12, 2009 14:04:16 GMT -5
I wasn't trying to have a debate with you. I was asking a question about what happened. You made it into your own debate over whether or not it was a relevant question. If you don't think it's relevant, then don't respond.
You're accuing us of getting emotional when you're just trying to start fights. Moderators, don't worry, no flame war here, I'm done with this guy.
Seriously though, would anyone like to provide some insight into what was happening defensively for Sims and Monroe?
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royski
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Mar 12, 2009 14:10:10 GMT -5
Post by royski on Mar 12, 2009 14:10:10 GMT -5
I wasn't trying to have a debate with you. I was asking a question about what happened. You made it into your own debate over whether or not it was a relevant question. If you don't think it's relevant, then don't respond. You're accuing us of getting emotional when you're just trying to start fights. Moderators, don't worry, no flame war here, I'm done with this guy. Seriously though, would anyone like to provide some insight into what was happening defensively for Sims and Monroe? A lot of our blocks came from wild SJU drives into traffic after beating our guys off the dribble because they didn't know what to do after. Many of them were recovered by SJU. Henry did a nice job blocking, but they were easy shots to block, and he didn't "Bill Russell" block them to a teammate effectively imo.
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swhoya
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Mar 12, 2009 14:15:53 GMT -5
Post by swhoya on Mar 12, 2009 14:15:53 GMT -5
Thanks, that's what I figured was happening. Still, as with Roy, it would be nice if Sims and Greg can patrol the paint more effectively next season. If our guards get beat off the dribble, maybe it will making them think twice about how far they drive in.
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 14:19:46 GMT -5
Post by formerbearcat on Mar 12, 2009 14:19:46 GMT -5
To perform an autopsy, the patient must be dead.
We're not dead yet, just a bit under the weather. We will recover.
It's just a game, played by a group of extraordinary young men, who are privileged to participate in a basketball program at the highest level, and, at the same time, get a world class education.
It doesn't get any better than that.
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DanMcQ
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Mar 12, 2009 14:22:41 GMT -5
Post by DanMcQ on Mar 12, 2009 14:22:41 GMT -5
To perform an autopsy, the patient must be dead. We're not dead yet, just a bit under the weather. We will recover. Maybe not, but it sure makes for a catchy lead in a newspaper article and as a discussion thread title.
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Autopsy
Mar 12, 2009 14:39:37 GMT -5
Post by Coast2CoastHoya on Mar 12, 2009 14:39:37 GMT -5
Regarding Henry's +/- in league play, I agree he did okay but the 40 minute figures are misleading. Henry did not get a consistent number of minutes in each game. When he was helping the team, JTIII left him in the game for longer stretches. When he was overmatched or lost, he came out of the game. (emphasis added) The distribution of minutes biased the sample. You can't pretend he would have had the same + numbers if he had played 30 minutes against Pitt and Louisville. He generally came in for DaJuan. DaJuan's +/- numbers are the larger concern. Not to be flippant, but isn't that generally why a team has a rotation in the first place? Shouldn't overall numbers reflect that exact phenomenon?
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