SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 7, 2009 17:56:45 GMT -5
That 04-05 lost five games to basically drop out of the tourney, including an awful loss to Providence.
It improved from Temple to Pitt, but in the BE, it faded.
That said, I think Florida is being way too nice. That team was young; it was the first year of the system for everyone and it was highly reliant on freshmen who hit the wall.
This team is just not all that focused on winning. Sloppy passes, lazy defense at times, etc.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 7, 2009 18:01:44 GMT -5
I still think they improved appreciably - the losing streak included a couple of games against better squads, then I think the young guys panicked a little, may also have hit the wall - a long season for newcomers. They also played pretty well in the NIT. I haven't seen any real improvement this year(except for a sub or two), like you should expect with a young team.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Feb 7, 2009 18:39:08 GMT -5
FL Hoya - let me suggest a slightly different opinion. We all knew we were young this year, and would take some time to mesh. But the one thing about that 04-05 team - they got better as the year went on, and most importantly, they showed that they had some toughness, and that they hated to lose. This team, with the exception of one or two bench players, does not seem to have improved at all since the start of the season, and they do not consistently show the grit that would make the losses more tolerable. The concern that I have about next season - if we aren't improving and showing the will to do whatever it takes this year, what would make us think we will magically change next year? That's a fair point. It's probably worth emphasizing as well that the mere fact that GU transitioned from Esherick to Thompson was a big boost to Hoya fans' confidence, and bought a lot of goodwill and patience. That team was legitimately young too, with three freshman starters in Wallace, Green and Hibbert. Not to mention everyone was learning an entirely new offensive system--kind of limited the benefits of having juniors Bowman, Cook and Owens. This year, at the very least we have Jessie Sapp and Dajuan Summers with Final Four experience, Austin Freeman with a full Big East season, and Chris Wright with BET/NCAA games played. And from these guys there shouldn't be a lag, but there has been. Your left with two possibilities: (1) the players aren't getting better over the course of the year, as you offer as a theory; (2) it's harder than we realize to function as a TEAM in this system when AS A TEAM you don't have much experience playing together. I suspect both are true.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Feb 7, 2009 19:05:06 GMT -5
FL's original post seems right on. Recent examples of teams that lost leadership but replaced it with young "talent" has shown us it takes more than a few Top 50 recruits to field a successful team. The experience factor is often overlooked but looms large as you start hitting some rough patches. This team is just not ready, blame it on coaching, on the players, on the assistants; blame it on anything you would like, the fact is they do not have guts and toughness that often comes from getting beat up in the league. We need to take our lumps now. Does this sound like a cliche, sure, but a cliche is what it is for a reason, it's true.
I also think there is a definite anxiety uncurrent on this board, knowing that if Monroe and Summers depart we could be in for another long season next year. I feel some of that but honestly I feel better about it now than I did 3-4 weeks ago. I feel like we do have some depth that is improving.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Feb 7, 2009 19:36:53 GMT -5
FL Hoya - let me suggest a slightly different opinion. We all knew we were young this year, and would take some time to mesh. But the one thing about that 04-05 team - they got better as the year went on, and most importantly, they showed that they had some toughness, and that they hated to lose. This team, with the exception of one or two bench players, does not seem to have improved at all since the start of the season, and they do not consistently show the grit that would make the losses more tolerable. The concern that I have about next season - if we aren't improving and showing the will to do whatever it takes this year, what would make us think we will magically change next year? That's a fair point. It's probably worth emphasizing as well that the mere fact that GU transitioned from Esherick to Thompson was a big boost to Hoya fans' confidence, and bought a lot of goodwill and patience. That team was legitimately young too, with three freshman starters in Wallace, Green and Hibbert. Not to mention everyone was learning an entirely new offensive system--kind of limited the benefits of having juniors Bowman, Cook and Owens. This year, at the very least we have Jessie Sapp and Dajuan Summers with Final Four experience, Austin Freeman with a full Big East season, and Chris Wright with BET/NCAA games played. And from these guys there shouldn't be a lag, but there has been. Your left with two possibilities: (1) the players aren't getting better over the course of the year, as you offer as a theory; (2) it's harder than we realize to function as a TEAM in this system when AS A TEAM you don't have much experience playing together. I suspect both are true. That group back then had Green, the co-Big East rookie of the year. Also had Wallace and Hibbert playing here and there. That team was completely different than this year's. They also played the top UCONN team in the Big EAst tournament to a tough contest. That team maxed out, with the few pieces it had. You saw flashes of what could be. This year's team? What is there to look forward to? Monroe is type of player he is. Will he become a defnsive stopper in the paint, or will he only evolve as the finesse, highly astute, great passing college C he is now? Freeman is going to be what he is going to be the rest of his career. ITs been 3 years with Summers, you are going to get what you are going to get. I think what you are seeing is that the pieces recruited to be here at GU, don't fit. Jeff Green and Hibbert were blessings in disguise for JTIII. Although recruited by Esh, they fit III's offense and defensive system perfectly, and were kids that were willing to put forth the effort and be coached. can you say the same with this current group? at the outset of this season, i said if we made the NCAA tournament this year, that would be an accomplishment. why? because of all the players we lost and those who transferred, and guys playing in new roles throughout the entire roster. however, 04-05 fought their guts out, and gave max effort, even when they lost. this year's team, seems like in a constant funk, unmotivated, and the effort level is not consistent. this doesn't seem like a team on the court. just a bunch of individuals. it wasn't like that 04-05.
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757hoyafan
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Post by 757hoyafan on Feb 7, 2009 19:47:48 GMT -5
Folks are never happy... When you bitch & cry this is what you get.. Remember, all the complaining about Hibbs on the switch out because he is too slow. How about CW replacing JW from day 1..
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Feb 7, 2009 19:47:43 GMT -5
I agree with your point about effort, but in many other respects, FL is right. Good call on the Pitt game. I had forgot about that analogy. Watching Hibbert and Wallace freshman year, I dont think you could have seen their development any more than this crew. And, Monroe isnt far off from being Big East rookie of the year. Probably wont get it, but still. Moreover, the thing about this team that is even better than that one is that we have younger players getting more minutes and experience, which makes me even more optimistic. My biggest gripe about this team right now is that we are losing games we should win. Dont expect miracles at Marq, vs Lville, at Syr, at Nova, but I do expect to handle teams with less talent than we have.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Feb 7, 2009 19:51:29 GMT -5
this year's team, seems like in a constant funk, unmotivated, and the effort level is not consistent. this doesn't seem like a team on the court. just a bunch of individuals. it wasn't like that 04-05. Total agreement Way. It seems like these guys approach the game like a bad NBA team - like a job they need to endure to get the paycheck. There is little joy or hustle, they do not even seem to like each other when on the court. Hard to watch. Again, too bad JT3 is not a great psychologist, that is a skill he will need to learn as he ages when he has another team like this one.
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757hoyafan
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Post by 757hoyafan on Feb 7, 2009 19:55:37 GMT -5
they do not even seem to like each other when on the court.
So when they're giving dap to each other, this is just for the camera? I remember during a timeout, Omar actually smacked D instead of a hug. Why do folks continue to pull out of their ass because we are losing?
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the_way
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The Illest
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Post by the_way on Feb 7, 2009 19:58:21 GMT -5
I agree with your point about effort, but in many other respects, FL is right. Good call on the Pitt game. I had forgot about that analogy. Watching Hibbert and Wallace freshman year, I dont think you could have seen their development any more than this crew. And, Monroe isnt far off from being Big East rookie of the year. Probably wont get it, but still. Moreover, the thing about this team that is even better than that one is that we have younger players getting more minutes and experience, which makes me even more optimistic. My biggest gripe about this team right now is that we are losing games we should win. Dont expect miracles at Marq, vs Lville, at Syr, at Nova, but I do expect to handle teams with less talent than we have. You could see the future and potential with Hibbert. You saw it in flashes. But he was raw,and it was only a matter of time. AND, more importantly, he has perserverance and the determination and work ethic to get better. Heck, he could barely run before he stepped on campus. It wasn't just talk with Hibbert. He was a doer. Which, again, speaks to the intangibles of a player. Wallace was the steady force of the offense. Understated, weak on defense, but he did provide to the team, more than made for his deficiencies. And he had a feel for a game and the offense, which helped the team. Again, the intangibles. The "talent" we have on this team, is questionable. I'd take the 04-05 Green over Monroe. I'd take the 04-05 Hibbert over Sims I'd take the 04-05 Cook over Sapp I'd take the 04-05 Bowman over Freeman I'd take the 04-05 Wallace steadyness over Wright's sporadic play I'd take the 04-05 Owens over Nikita/Omar I'd take AK Diaw and Vaughn/Sims are about equal I'd take 04-05 Ray Reed's defense over Clark's. and that 04-05 team didn't make the NCAA's. so what team in the Big East have less talent than us? just looking on the court, forget who is an all-american or not in high school, just look who can play and who can't on the court. well, we beat one in Rutgers the other night. thats the only one i can think of.
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Post by strummer8526 on Feb 7, 2009 21:53:28 GMT -5
they do not even seem to like each other when on the court. So when they're giving dap to each other, this is just for the camera? I remember during a timeout, Omar actually smacked D instead of a hug. Why do folks continue to pull Edited out of their ass because we are losing? Let's cut the dap and win a Editeding basketball game. This isn't eharmony. I don't care who likes who. Make your shots or learn to run the damn offense that allows us to find a man who can hit a shot.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Feb 7, 2009 21:59:13 GMT -5
And not to bring this up again, but I'm bringing this up again.
Can we at least just TRY putting Dajuan at the 3 and Freeman at the 2 and starting Sims or Vaughn? Just try it. What we're doing is no longer working and it is not getting any better.
Maybe putting these guys in their natural positions would at least lift their spirits or something. And you know Greg would have to like the change since there's just so much pressure on him to be the only big guy.
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Post by strummer8526 on Feb 7, 2009 22:04:00 GMT -5
And not to bring this up again, but I'm bringing this up again. Can we at least just TRY putting Dajuan at the 3 and Freeman at the 2 and starting Sims or Vaughn? Just try it. What we're doing is no longer working and it is not getting any better. Maybe putting these guys in their natural positions would at least lift their spirits or something. And you know Greg would have to like the change since there's just so much pressure on him to be the only big guy. AGREED. Sapp, Freeman, Summers, Sims, Monroe. First subs (depending on how things go): Wright for Freeman, Nikita for Sims w/ Summers shifting to the 4.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Feb 7, 2009 22:25:52 GMT -5
That team as i have said before would be down 10-0 against every team in the big east before they figured out how to get the ball in bounds or over half court.
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mapei
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Post by mapei on Feb 7, 2009 22:37:06 GMT -5
And that is different from the current team how, exactly?
Not that I'm a fan of the proposed changed lineup.
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Post by strummer8526 on Feb 7, 2009 22:46:40 GMT -5
That team as i have said before would be down 10-0 against every team in the big east before they figured out how to get the ball in bounds or over half court. Our best inbounds play today was a pass to Nikita running up the sideline, cross court to Summers, into Monroe, who bounced to a wide open Freeman coming up the lane. It is different from the current team because it does not involve Chris Wright starting off the game running around out of control.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Feb 7, 2009 23:07:33 GMT -5
I'd start Wright.
Wright, Freeman, Summers, Sims, Monroe. We can't keep banging our head against the wall. As an added bonus, you put these guys at their potential NBA positions, they might consider staying around.
If we're going to lose, let's lose with purpose. We need to start thinking about next year's approach. We played with a true 4 and a true 5 twice in III's tenure. We went to the Sweet 16 and the Final Four. Roy's first year, he played 15mpg with the Hoya often choosing to play Brandon at 4. Roy's last year, he had Dajuan slide to 4.
Let's get back to basics here.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 7, 2009 23:20:57 GMT -5
Why in the world does every alternate lineup include Freeman? I would suggest Sims taking his spot, with Summers sliding to the 3. Might as well see how Henry can start developing for next year.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Feb 7, 2009 23:30:04 GMT -5
Why in the world does every alternate lineup include Freeman? I would suggest Sims taking his spot, with Summers sliding to the 3. Might as well see how Henry can start developing for next year. Because Jessie has been in double digits once since Savannah State and with a new guy in the lineup, we'll need another scorer.
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Dhall
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Post by Dhall on Feb 7, 2009 23:50:56 GMT -5
Three undisputable facts:
1. Coach has been unable to decide on which players will play, when and with whom and we are 2/3 of the way through the season. There is no rotation and any coach or person in a leadership position will tell you that the people they manage need to understand their roles, expectations of them, etc. for the unit to succeed overall.
2. The number of times opposing teams have scored on us out of time outs and inbounds plays compared to the number of times we have scored on them is embarrassing.
3. Coach is on record as having said, and members of the media have confirmed, that his teams do very little scouting or adjusting to opposing teams styles, strategies, etc, relative to other programs. For Coach, it's "all about us".
I am not going to say that this season's failures are the fault of the Coach/staff more than the players, but these three things above really need to change.
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