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Post by summersshowers on Feb 8, 2009 8:38:48 GMT -5
EDITED all of you fair weather fans calling for dajuan's exodus at the end of the season. yea, that's productive, let's hope that our only rising senior/captain leaves the team...not to mention a kid who has SINGLE-HANDEDLY kept us in games this year (duke, marquette), and has hit a number of huge shots for us through his career (see UNC for Final 4--dominated OT--and Louisville for the BE title last year). yea, i know my name is summersshowers, but you guys are absurd. the team is frustrated right now, obviously not playing well. no matter what happens this year, they will obviously come out a better and more experienced team next year, and losing dajuan will HURT and i think everyone knows it.
as far as the cincy game goes--game should have been in the books long before the last possession, but i want jessie sapp making the decisions at that point, NOT chris wright. and dajuan and greg not getting a touch there is inexcusable.
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skyhoya
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Post by skyhoya on Feb 8, 2009 8:53:56 GMT -5
I wish everyone would lay off the negative comments on Jessie. I talked to him and Chris a lot over the summer. Jessie was trying to teach Chris and Jason the fine points of guard play in the JTIII system. He wants the other guards to succeed. There has not or ever has been any friction between the three of them. In this offense anyone can have a great night or a terrible night, depending on the opposition’s game plan. Some nights the threes are falling, but since the CUSE game they haven’t been there.
We don’t have PEII for instant energy like we have had for the last two years. The team looks just like the team did before PEII was playing. This is a Thompson thing-no highs or lows - just play his system. This year the opposition has seen what works against our system and JTIII has been very slow to adjust. We have been in all the games at half time since the Duke loss, but just have been out-coached, out-played and out hustled in the second half’s. Not that Omar or Nikita are the answers, but I like their enthusiasm
Showing a little emotion is not BAD.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Feb 8, 2009 9:30:11 GMT -5
chris wright takes too much abuse. when he develops into a great player next season I don't want to see any of these people here riding his jock. He made a mistake on the last possession, other than that he did fine. He created offense, he got people shots. I've watched every single game but two this season, and Chris is very talented and needs to develop. The crap he gets on this board infuriates me when there are other players that deserve the criticism he gets. I have been critical of Wright for one thing, not running the offense. I expect that to change next year as he has more time to work with JT3 on how CW can "fit" his game into the offense. It is not all on Wright, he is an extremely gifted player, and JT3 needs to adapt his system for him to succeed. That said, my main concern with my previous post on this thread is that if the game is on the line, I want Jessie Sapp on the floor directing traffic. That is not as much a knock on Wright, but a recognition he is just not there yet with the offense. Wright will be a great PG, his talent is obvious, but his understanding of the offense has been slower than expected.
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bicentennial
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Post by bicentennial on Feb 8, 2009 10:13:10 GMT -5
Agree Sapp harshness seems excessive. Not sure Wright or Freeman doing the job. In hind sight maybe thompson should have benched all the starters except Jesse in overtime and seen if the bench and Sapp could have won the game. 0-8 on field goals in overtime is not good. Failure of Wright and Freeman to rebound is a big part of our teams failure to win. Sapp had 1 rebound in 6 minutes, Clark averaged about 1 rebound ever 5 minutes he played. Both Wright and Freeman averaged less than 1 rebound in more than 15 minutes played. Agree both Wright and Freeman are very talented and a big part of the long term plan at Georgetown but for more than 1 month neither of them has any fire. Sapp seems to have the drive if not the shooting touch of late but I would still rather have Jesse taking the contested 3 than either Wright or Freeman as Sapp has always lived for the desperation shot!
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KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Feb 8, 2009 11:23:22 GMT -5
I posted in the NCAA thread as well but it bears repeating here -- this loss was a huge blow to any at-large hopes we still had. We now put ourselves in the position of needing 2 upsets over the following three: Villanova, Marquette and Louisville to be back in the mix. I don't see it but I hope they prove me wrong.
On the game itself, I was disgusted. Missed free throws, botched passes, poor second half defense, bad coaching (could we please go to a starting five where everyone plays the position they are suppossed to play? please?), bad execution on the final play, really a bad bad exhibition. Sure, there were some nice moments but this team has taken so many steps back since UCONN ---- which is completely out of character for a JTIII team. He gets some of the blame for that.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 8, 2009 12:34:08 GMT -5
This team right now isn't beating any of the following: Villanova, Marquette, Louisville, Syracuse. We know this. Just because there's no tourney in this team's future this year, doesn't mean all is lost. We gotta get in gear.
What's driving me crazy is the combination of the following: 1) I trust JT3's decision to sit Sapp. 2) I hate seeing Sapp sit especially with the game on the line. 3) I'm sure the punishment fits the crime as JT3 seems, from a fan's persepective, harsh but fair. 4) I'll certainly never know definitively what the problem(s) is because this team and this coach (as they shouldn't) don't talk out of class. 5) I REALLY want to know what the problem(s) is. 6) I want to think the best of Sapp (Onions) and JT3 but, clearly, something's gone horribly awry.
That being said, Jessie's legacy as one of the Hoya greats was solidified prior to this year. He just really always seemed to be a "glue" guy that you liked to see having the ball down the stretch. While that perspective of him, for me, will not change, it makes what's gone on this year that much more disturbing.
Fix. It. Fix it!
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JB5
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Post by JB5 on Feb 8, 2009 14:57:46 GMT -5
This was the only game of the season that I get to see live, so obviously I'm a little disappointed. I thought several things jumped out at me seeing the game in persons. First, we could not run the offense at all. Part of this was sloppy execution, but credit has to go to Cincy's defense. They were alert for the cutters and were grabbing them to throw off the timing.
Monroe is bigger and better in person than he looks on TV. The Cincy defenders were all over him making him work hard for his touches. We are definitely a much better offensive team when he gets the ball more. He also needs to take the ball to the basket more. He had 3-4 chances for good shots when he passed the ball to someone who turned it over. Summers had some seriously bad hands yesterday.
Austin looked good when he was in at the 2.
We really needed Jessie yesterday. He could have kept things calm when UC was coming back, and, in the brief period he played, he played tough D on Vaughan.
I really like the bench guys' energy and hard work. Nikita played well but was a step slow on defense. Clark got himself into trouble against the press. This is something we need to fix. Often, we have only one ballhandler in the game when the bad guys are pressing us. Both Clark and Wright got themselves into trouble trying to break the press alone.
And keep working on boxing out and denying 2nd shots.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Feb 8, 2009 17:59:16 GMT -5
The Hoyas are losing as a team....players, coaches, starters, bench. They can and will get it turned around. We have an entire week, uninterrupted, to work on fundamentals and team play. Get ready for Syracuse! Keep the faith!
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Post by formerbearcat on Feb 8, 2009 22:34:10 GMT -5
The last time I posted, after first loss to Cincy, I was criticized for being too negative. Now it seems many of you have jumped abroad.
Being a Hoya fan, which I am, does not mean that you drink the grape juice. Being a fan means honestly appraising where you are, and where you're going.
This group is not ready for prime time. JTIII hasn't shown me that he can adjust his game plan to his personnel.
I attended the game on Saturday, this loss falls directly on the shoulders of JTIII. No, I'm not criticizing the coach, just placing the blame for this loss where it belongs.
Let the thoroughbreds run, I can only recall 2 or 3 baskets in transition during the Cincy loss.
Hoyas have a difficult final 6 games, 3 wins are possible, but my guess is 2 and 4.
A good showing in the N.I.T. will build some confidence and momentum for next year, as opposed to an early exit in the NCAA.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Feb 9, 2009 0:03:10 GMT -5
You have to be over .500 to qualify for the NIT and I don't see this team achieving that right now.
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guru
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Post by guru on Feb 9, 2009 10:05:49 GMT -5
The last time I posted, after first loss to Cincy, I was criticized for being too negative. Now it seems many of you have jumped abroad. Being a Hoya fan, which I am, does not mean that you drink the grape juice. Being a fan means honestly appraising where you are, and where you're going. This group is not ready for prime time. JTIII hasn't shown me that he can adjust his game plan to his personnel. I attended the game on Saturday, this loss falls directly on the shoulders of JTIII. No, I'm not criticizing the coach, just placing the blame for this loss where it belongs. Let the thoroughbreds run, I can only recall 2 or 3 baskets in transition during the Cincy loss. Hoyas have a difficult final 6 games, 3 wins are possible, but my guess is 2 and 4. A good showing in the N.I.T. will build some confidence and momentum for next year, as opposed to an early exit in the NCAA. disagree on the NIT/NCAA thing - at this point, where this team is right now, if they can somehow lift themselves out of the grave and rally to make the NCAAS, it would be huge going forward, even with an early NCAA exit. I don't see it happening, though. And if we keep playing the way we are, we'll be an early exit from the NIT - and that's if we can stay at or above .500 to qualify. Far from a sure thing at this point. The way the team comes out on Saturday in Syracuse will show us a lot about this team. If they're not going after every loose ball hard, hitting the glass, and playing hard, it'll be crystal clear that the coaches have simply lost this team entirely.
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Post by formerbearcat on Feb 9, 2009 11:02:36 GMT -5
Assuming we have a 500 record, which we will, only need one more victory, to end 14 - 14, and Hoyas will be one of the top seeds in the NIT due to conference strength and strength of schedule.
Its all about our style of play. The Princeton O may be pretty to watch, when it works, but the game has changed, and the Princeton O is outdated. We need points in transition, not forced shots with just seconds remaining on the shot clock. Going 5, 6, 7 minutes without a field goal is unacceptable. Today's game is a game of speed and momentum, not stagnant play.
The Princeton O allows lesser teams to be competitive and stay in the game.
We have the horses, let the thoroughbreds run. Yes, depth is an issue, but we can be competitive against good teams. We were in the Marquette game, and ran out of gas at the end.
Letting Cincy back in, with a 12 point lead, and not scoring a field goal in the final five minutes of regulation and overtime is unacceptable. It was not because of the Cincy D. We should have blown them out.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Feb 9, 2009 11:23:42 GMT -5
Assuming we have a 500 record, which we will, only need one more victory, to end 14 - 14, and Hoyas will be one of the top seeds in the NIT due to conference strength and strength of schedule. Its all about our style of play. The Princeton O may be pretty to watch, when it works, but the game has changed, and the Princeton O is outdated. We need points in transition, not forced shots with just seconds remaining on the shot clock. Going 5, 6, 7 minutes without a field goal is unacceptable. Today's game is a game of speed and momentum, not stagnant play. The Princeton O allows lesser teams to be competitive and stay in the game. We have the horses, let the thoroughbreds run. Yes, depth is an issue, but we can be competitive against good teams. We were in the Marquette game, and ran out of gas at the end. Letting Cincy back in, with a 12 point lead, and not scoring a field goal in the final five minutes of regulation and overtime is unacceptable. It was not because of the Cincy D. We should have blown them out. I didn't know the game had changed so much in the past year (or two). I mean, the Princeton seemed to work just fine last year, when we had the 18th most efficient offense in the country, and the year before, when we had the 2nd most efficient offense in the country. It's not the system--it's the EXECUTION of the system. (And the defense, which, of course, very few people seem to remember)
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guru
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Post by guru on Feb 9, 2009 11:28:18 GMT -5
Assuming we have a 500 record, which we will, only need one more victory, to end 14 - 14, and Hoyas will be one of the top seeds in the NIT due to conference strength and strength of schedule. Its all about our style of play. The Princeton O may be pretty to watch, when it works, but the game has changed, and the Princeton O is outdated. We need points in transition, not forced shots with just seconds remaining on the shot clock. Going 5, 6, 7 minutes without a field goal is unacceptable. Today's game is a game of speed and momentum, not stagnant play. The Princeton O allows lesser teams to be competitive and stay in the game. We have the horses, let the thoroughbreds run. Yes, depth is an issue, but we can be competitive against good teams. We were in the Marquette game, and ran out of gas at the end. Letting Cincy back in, with a 12 point lead, and not scoring a field goal in the final five minutes of regulation and overtime is unacceptable. It was not because of the Cincy D. We should have blown them out. I would take issue with your use of "forced shots" there - when the O is run correctly, you don't have to force a shot up at the end of the shot clock, you take the good one when it arrives, whenever. And I really don't see how the "game has changed" so drastically since we beat Syracuse in mid January, and the #1 team in the country 2 weeks before that. That's a little dramatic - now I'm not saying that JT3 shouldn't be a bit more flexible and be willing to let his team function outside his system when the personell/personality begs for it, but to say the system CAN'T work ignores the evidence of the past 4 seasons. This team is young, so growing pains are to be expected. It's just that none of us expected them to be quite THIS painful.
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Post by JohnJacquesLayup on Feb 9, 2009 11:32:47 GMT -5
I'm fine with the fact that we are young/inexperienced, and need some time to grow and learn how to execute the system. Every program goes through this type of cycle. The only worry I have is that players will transfer out before giving it enough time to learn and develop individually and as a team. We've lost a lot of players to transfer under JTIII, perhaps every season. That could kill us for a few years considering we have one 2009 recruit, and any 2010 recruit will take at least a season to learn and adjust.
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guru
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Post by guru on Feb 9, 2009 11:39:46 GMT -5
I'm fine with the fact that we are young/inexperienced, and need some time to grow and learn how to execute the system. Every program goes through this type of cycle. The only worry I have is that players will transfer out before giving it enough time to learn and develop individually and as a team. We've lost a lot of players to transfer under JTIII, perhaps every season. That could kill us for a few years considering we have one 2009 recruit, and any 2010 recruit will take at least a season to learn and adjust. The transfer rate under JT3 has been far more disturbing than this current losing streak, I think. It's not that Macklin and Rivers are great players - they are most certainly not - but there is just very little continuity, and too few players to teach the system to the newcomers. I have to admit that I underestimated the impact and thought it might be addition by subtraction when this year's set of transfers was announced last spring. But if we continue to lose players to transfer every season, that's an ominous sign as to whether JT3's success can be sustained or whether it was - dare I say it - a 'blip'.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Feb 9, 2009 11:48:01 GMT -5
Assuming we have a 500 record, which we will, only need one more victory, to end 14 - 14, and Hoyas will be one of the top seeds in the NIT due to conference strength and strength of schedule. Its all about our style of play. The Princeton O may be pretty to watch, when it works, but the game has changed, and the Princeton O is outdated. We need points in transition, not forced shots with just seconds remaining on the shot clock. Going 5, 6, 7 minutes without a field goal is unacceptable. Today's game is a game of speed and momentum, not stagnant play. The Princeton O allows lesser teams to be competitive and stay in the game. We have the horses, let the thoroughbreds run. Yes, depth is an issue, but we can be competitive against good teams. We were in the Marquette game, and ran out of gas at the end. Letting Cincy back in, with a 12 point lead, and not scoring a field goal in the final five minutes of regulation and overtime is unacceptable. It was not because of the Cincy D. We should have blown them out. This is not about the Princeton offense. The Princeton offense was on perfect display when Georgetown beat UConn. The problem is execution of the Princeton offense. Lack of movement is not part of the Princeton offense. Dribbling for fifteen seconds is not part of the Princeton offense. Driving into triple coverage for a layup isn't part of the Princeton offense - driving into triple coverage and then throwing a last-second pass usually isn't either. This always reminds me of the scene in Hoosiers where Gene Hackman wants three passes before every shot. I am a firm believer that the Princeton offense, when well-executed by excellent basketball players, is unbeatable. I also think that the Princeton offense is better than multi-talented athletes, and that future recruiting needs to emphasize the fact that, just because you're good doesn't mean you don't need to pass or involve your teammates. If this costs Georgetown better players, I'm fine with a good Princeton offense team being on the court.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 9, 2009 12:26:13 GMT -5
I'm going to take the exorcist's post even further.
I don't really care all that much what offense we run, as long as we run an offense. There's spacing, sharing of the ball, an understanding between the players of what each is doing, something to fall back on when things get frazzled, etc.
I don't think there's an offense out there that is necessarily better or worse as designed; I just think you do need to have a halfcourt offense of some kind. Anything that's designed with the above principles in mind is fine by me. Basically, the team has to work as a team -- no offense designed on isolation plays or "give the ball to X and let him work." The players who make those offenses work are few and far between and don't stay in college long.
Whether or not an offense -- or a defense -- works is all about execution. Yes, you can have an offense that doesn't suit the players, but I don't think that's the problem here. It's not like we're losing every game because of the offense. And we're not losing every game for the same reason. And when your players have too many limitations, there's not much an offense can do. Another offense won't solve DaJuan's turnover problems, make Greg more effective down low or improve out three point shooting.
Our players are actually very well suited to the offense as designed, anyway. We don't have great ballhandlers -- so it is actually good that we find ways to get to the hoop other than the dribble drive. We thought they'd be good shooters -- and I still don't know what happened to Jessie and Austin. And the offense fits Monroe much better than most, which would be forcing him down low where he's simply less effective.
The idea that we "have the horse, let the thoroughbreds run" makes me question whether that poster has seen the Hoyas on a fast break. We're atrocious on the fast break.
We've lost games in so many ways, I'm coming around to Florida's point of view. We're really young, and we've seen young Cuse and UConn teams basically fall apart no matter the talent. A young Florida team may be on its way to its second NIT in a row.
There's no doubt this year has not been a great coaching job or playing job. But when you are losing in so many ways, it is hard not to see it simply as a team that can't put it together.
When you are a successful person, you don't scrap everything you do at the first sign of trouble. And as long as this feels, it's really a small period of time.
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Post by JohnnyJones on Feb 9, 2009 13:06:08 GMT -5
I'm going to take the exorcist's post even further. I don't really care all that much what offense we run, as long as we run an offense. There's spacing, sharing of the ball, an understanding between the players of what each is doing, something to fall back on when things get frazzled, etc. I don't think there's an offense out there that is necessarily better or worse as designed; I just think you do need to have a halfcourt offense of some kind. Anything that's designed with the above principles in mind is fine by me. Basically, the team has to work as a team -- no offense designed on isolation plays or "give the ball to X and let him work." The players who make those offenses work are few and far between and don't stay in college long. Whether or not an offense -- or a defense -- works is all about execution. Yes, you can have an offense that doesn't suit the players, but I don't think that's the problem here. It's not like we're losing every game because of the offense. And we're not losing every game for the same reason. And when your players have too many limitations, there's not much an offense can do. Another offense won't solve DaJuan's turnover problems, make Greg more effective down low or improve out three point shooting. Our players are actually very well suited to the offense as designed, anyway. We don't have great ballhandlers -- so it is actually good that we find ways to get to the hoop other than the dribble drive. We thought they'd be good shooters -- and I still don't know what happened to Jessie and Austin. And the offense fits Monroe much better than most, which would be forcing him down low where he's simply less effective. The idea that we "have the horse, let the thoroughbreds run" makes me question whether that poster has seen the Hoyas on a fast break. We're atrocious on the fast break. We've lost games in so many ways, I'm coming around to Florida's point of view. We're really young, and we've seen young Cuse and UConn teams basically fall apart no matter the talent. A young Florida team may be on its way to its second NIT in a row. There's no doubt this year has not been a great coaching job or playing job. But when you are losing in so many ways, it is hard not to see it simply as a team that can't put it together. When you are a successful person, you don't scrap everything you do at the first sign of trouble. And as long as this feels, it's really a small period of time. Great post.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Feb 9, 2009 13:17:27 GMT -5
I didn't know the game had changed so much in the past year (or two). I mean, the Princeton seemed to work just fine last year, when we had the 18th most efficient offense in the country, and the year before, when we had the 2nd most efficient offense in the country.
It's not the system--it's the EXECUTION of the system.
(And the defense, which, of course, very few people seem to remember) This is not about the Princeton offense. The Princeton offense was on perfect display when Georgetown beat UConn. The problem is execution of the Princeton offense. I am a firm believer that the Princeton offense, when well-executed by excellent basketball players, is unbeatable. TBird and theexorcist are absolutely, 100% correct. It is astonishing how many fans put down the P Offense every time we lose... since JT3 arrived. Now we have a tough stretch for the team as a whole... we know this... but this tough stretch has nothing to do with the P Offense... unless you consider not running it and/or running it really poorly to be problems with the offense. And the DEFENSE is equally important. Any team that does not run its defense well is going to look really bad. It isn't the DEFENSE, it is the lack of execution of the D. OK, is it a Coaching problem? or is it a player problem? Well, the coaches recruited and coached the players. So if the players aren't getting it, then the coaches must take responsibility. Of course, the players too must take responsibility for putting in the work to learn, to practice and the absolute effort on the court. Live as a team, die as a team. This team needs better teamwork. TEAM includes starters, bench, coaches, managers, walk-ons.. everyone.
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