Hank Scorpio
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You're gonna die now!
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Jan 15, 2009 11:31:59 GMT -5
Taken from a blog I frequent:
Career splits were .320/.374/.546 at home vs .277/.330/.459 away. Some of that could be explained with age, but even in his 1978 MVP season the splits were extreme --.361/.416/.690 home vs .269/.325/.512 away. It's clear that someone who ranks 177th all time in OPS+, tied with John Olerud, Sammy Sosa and Moises Alou, would not have ranked that high if he didn't play in Fenway.
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Jim Rice belongs in the Hall of Fame like Don Mattingly belongs in the Hall of Fame. And I don't think Donnie Baseball should be sniffing Cooperstown. I guess he's got hope now.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jan 15, 2009 11:41:23 GMT -5
But damn you, Buff. You made me take a look at the Rock & Roll Hall of the Decent and Some Not Even Remotely Appropriate list of inductees. Seems like R&R had as bad a year as MLB, what with John Mellencamp, Leonard Cohen and Madonna this year. Seriously? www.rockhall.com/inductees/inductee-list/As long as The Smiths, The Cure, Depeche Mode and Joy Division/New Order are not in the Cleveland Museum of Mediocre Music, I refuse to acknowledge its existence. I apologize for my interjection. Please resume your baseball discussion. Is Billy Ripken up for the Hall of Fame yet? I mean, his name's Ripken, right?
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Feb 7, 2009 19:28:01 GMT -5
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Feb 8, 2009 12:57:30 GMT -5
Truly earns the name A-FRAUD now. The one thing I always brought up in his defense is out the window. What a clown.
That being said-can we just end this circus known as Selig. It's an embarrassment. Expect more big names to come out too-and really just rip the credibility of players and their achievements even further. Selig has to go.
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Post by tpk3 on Feb 8, 2009 15:02:57 GMT -5
you mean A-Roid? i think i like that better.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Feb 9, 2009 12:27:00 GMT -5
Yeah, now yet another name is tainted with that scarlet letter of "S" ... I wonder if we should begin to start seriously questioning the others who have put up big numbers while avoiding associations with roids. On the short list were: Griffey Jr., A-Rod and Vladamir Guerrero and then Pujols more recently. That list has shrunk by one member. Who's next?
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Feb 9, 2009 13:19:32 GMT -5
Yeah, now yet another name is tainted with that scarlet letter of "S" ... I wonder if we should begin to start seriously questioning the others who have put up big numbers while avoiding associations with roids. On the short list were: Griffey Jr., A-Rod and Vladamir Guerrero and then Pujols more recently. That list has shrunk by one member. Who's next? Frank Thomas. Though he might be the only clean star from the late 90s, as he was the only player willing to talk to the Mitchell Report
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 9, 2009 14:32:56 GMT -5
The only HOF-level players I have any confidence in from the 90s are Griffey, Gwynn and Thomas. Also Rickey Henderson, I think.
I'm pretty sure Vlad is clean. Not so sure anymore about Manny and Pujols. Pujols to me is a lot like ARod. I though they were simply freaks. That's no longer a point for me.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Feb 9, 2009 14:50:46 GMT -5
The only HOF-level players I have any confidence in from the 90s are Griffey, Gwynn and Thomas. Also Rickey Henderson, I think. I'm pretty sure Vlad is clean. Not so sure anymore about Manny and Pujols. Pujols to me is a lot like ARod. I though they were simply freaks. That's no longer a point for me. Those are probably the only ones. Maddux and Randy Johnson would be two of the HOF pitchers I can think of off the top of my head that are probably clean.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Feb 9, 2009 15:24:38 GMT -5
I'd wager the only illegal supplement Manny has taken are of the Michael Phelps variety.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Feb 9, 2009 15:40:42 GMT -5
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Feb 9, 2009 15:42:27 GMT -5
I know others have alluded to this point, but I think it's important to think of Bonds in terms of Griffey and vice-versa. They were in the same era and were both moving up the all-time homerun ranks. But at an age when bodies begin to wear down and start showing the effects of aging, Griffey did but Bonds went the other direction, actually getting bigger and stronger. Remember the benefits of steroids aren't limited to building muscle mass. Perhaps the most discounted benefit is in recovery, whether that is recovery from the daily grind of 162 games a year, or whether it is recovery from a strenuous weight training workout. Griffey, by all acounts, played by the rules and as father time set in, he was forced to miss large chunks of games.
The point is, just what kind of numbers might the kid have put up had he chosen the other path? How much effect could a steroid cycle or two have had on his short-term health? We all know the long-term effects are bad and dangerous, but there's no denying the short-term benefits. In Griffey's case, I think it is reasonable to think that at least some of his injuries wouldn't have kept him out of the lineup, were he on a cycle. Additionally, he would have certainly recovered sooner. Add to that the benefits at the plate, and I think it's clear that Griffey would likely have passed Bonds. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Jr. should have, and in fact just the opposite. But I do think it's reasonable to think of these two superstars in relative terms to each other.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 9, 2009 16:19:35 GMT -5
To a certain extent, I agree, hifi. I think Griffey would have beaten out Bonds had he stayed healthy. He was a better home run hitter before Bonds went on the juice, so he would have kept close pace if the juice would have kept him healthy. Would it have been enough? I doubt it actually -- a better way to think of it would be that neither would have broken the record, I think.
I don't know how relevant it is, but Bonds was a better player than Griffey before the juice. Griffey was and is much more likeable, but Bonds was the best player in baseball before he cheated. Which makes it even more a shame.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 9, 2009 16:21:03 GMT -5
I'd wager the only illegal supplement Manny has taken are of the Michael Phelps variety. I know you love Manny, but no one is exempt from suspicion anymore. He's a freak, yes, but that doesn't mean he isn't doping.
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Post by sleepyjackson21 on Feb 9, 2009 19:43:44 GMT -5
Not so sure about Pujols or Randy Johnson. To think that the most homers that Frank Thomas has hit in a season was 43.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Feb 10, 2009 12:03:23 GMT -5
I am inclined to think that Johnson was clean for a couple of reasons -- right off the bat, the good old eyeball test. He never bulked up and actually had more of a lanky build. Secondly, when he was trying to make a run later in his career, he kept breaking down, whereas Clemens, like Bonds, got conspicuously better at odd later ages.
I agree with those who point out that A-Rod's recent developments cast doubt on some of the others that were widely presumed clean, like Manny.
So off the top of my head, the hall-of-famers from the past decade plus that I think are/will continue to be clean would be Griffey, Maddux and Jeter. I'm sure there are others, but those names come to mind.
Let me throw one more out there. What about Tom Glavine? I have always like Glavine, even when he went to the hated Mets. He certainly doesn't look like he's bulked up. But he has pitched later in his career than almost any others. In today's game, I guess you have to be ready to at least question everyone.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Feb 10, 2009 12:12:15 GMT -5
Why does anyone make any assumptions about anyone being clean, including the likes of Griffey, Maddux, etc? None of them were tested, and massive muscle gain is not the only benefit of PEDs. Yes, Griffey got hurt a lot and broke down toward the end of his career- so did Nomar Garciaparra, and people like Bob Ryan have used that as evidence that he was a steroid user. Sadly, everyone is tarnished in this, with Frank Thomas alone among big stars who was advocating for more testing, and even he does not actually have any independent testing to back up his stance. In a court of law, you may be innocent until proven guilty, but for me with baseball players, everyone is at least somewhat guilty unless proven innocent.
That said, it doesn't bother me that much- records are now "meaningless," but if we are honest they always were- PEDs are hardly the first game-changer when it comes to stats- the equipment changes, playing field changes, rule changes, and integration/internationalization of the game all have had at least as much effect as the juice. I still enjoy the games and want to see the same scrutiny for PEDs applied to other sports, especially football, as it is to baseball.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 10, 2009 12:23:36 GMT -5
Maddux beyond passes the eye test. Dude lost a lot of velocity as he aged, unlike Clemens, for example. He didn't bulk up AT ALL -- it's almost like he simply eschewed weight training other than very basic stuff. He never really got hurt.
There's simply no reason for him to use.
As for Griffey, I base that on three things. One, again, the guy never bulked up. Dude, his career path is typical -- he aged exactly as players have for years. Three, in Game of Shadows Bonds has a conversation where it is clear Griffey isn't using at that time -- I suppose he could have been lying, but if any HOF-level position player is clean, Griffey seems like it.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Feb 10, 2009 14:12:20 GMT -5
I'm with you SF, but I see Jack's point. And it really is a shame, but I think all those who keep calling for a release of the other 103 tests that came back positive have a point. That is such a large number, and I think that by keeping those names sealed, there is a implicit accusation to anyone who played during that era.
That being said, maybe I am naive, but I still think that both Griffey and Maddux were clean.
Here's a question for the board: do you think there should be a distinction between using HGH, under prescription to recover from an injury for example, and using D-Ball? What about using HGH without a prescription compared to the conventional steroids?
I have a hard time putting something that was legal at the time on par with something that wasn't just because there wasn't any testing being done.
Lastly, do you put the legal additives that later became a banned substance, though still remaining legal, such as Creatine or Androstine-Dione on the same level as HGH or steroids?
In this regard, I am asking with respect to the game, and "cheating" the game. Obviously from a legal standpoint, there is a big difference between something that is legal and something that isn't.
Thoughts?
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Post by sleepyjackson21 on Feb 10, 2009 14:18:30 GMT -5
Jack, i make the assumption that Frank Thomas is clean because he has been openly complaining about steroids and performance enhancers for years. He openly complained about Sammy Sosa and PEDs and got ridiculed. He was also the only active player in MLB to volunteer to be interviewed by Mitchell. And as SFHoya99 pointed out with Griffey, Frank's career path was typical. His production declined once the guy got into his mid 30's and his body started to breakdown. And, as i pointed out before, despite his large body type, Frank never hit an obscene amount of homers. His career high is only 43. Frank's a surefire HOFer in my book. Maybe the best right handed hitter in our generation with the possible exception of Manny (if he's clean).
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