Jack
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Post by Jack on Jan 8, 2009 11:11:47 GMT -5
It is commonly understood that Boston made an offer of eight years for about $170 million. What is not widely known is that the Red Sox also had on the table two vesting option years which would have realized Boras’ goal to land a 10-year deal for his client. The total value of the package would have been worth in the neighborhood of $212 million, if the option years vested. According to Tony Massarotti in the Globe it was Boras' insistence on those vesting options that caused John Henry to send his now infamous "We are out of the running" email, so there is not one clear version of the story. Good for the Yankees, they got a good player they needed more than the Red Sox for a lot of money. I have moved on, and it looks like Theo has too, both after some initial disappointment.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Jan 8, 2009 13:00:46 GMT -5
borat, you are a yankee homer, so i don't expect you to understand. no one that likes a team that spends 120+ mill on their starting 9 hitters would understand.
the yankees gave cc 152m, 30m more than anyone else was offering, PLUS a 9m signing bonus, a no trade, an opt out after'11, and a suite on the road. he sold his mother, his mothers mother, and his mothers mothers mother.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Jan 8, 2009 13:55:04 GMT -5
if pointing out the fallacy of your argument that the Yankees offered much more money to Teixeira than the Red Sox makes me a Yankee homer, then so be it. Clinging to that belief in the face of proof to the contrary makes you something else entirely. in the end, if it was really about money, the Red Sox could have had Teixeira for 10 million total over 8 years, maybe a little more. apparently it wasn't, maybe Teixeira had some lingering resentment over the way the BoSox handled drafting him. I'm still not quite sure Cashman had to "sell" to land CC. The Yankees blew everyone else away in that bidding (though the 9 million signing bonus is included in his contract's total value, you seem to indicate otherwise). I get that. But it's not like the money is coming out of Cashman's pocket, so I don't know where you're going with that. It's also not like no trade clauses aren't standard, and how, exactly, does the opt out hurt the Yankees? If he leaves in 3 years, that'd be awesome. borat, you are a yankee homer, so i don't expect you to understand. no one that likes a team that spends 120+ mill on their starting 9 would understand. the yankees gave cc 152m, 30m more than anyone else was offering, PLUS a 9m signing bonus, a no trade, an opt out after'11, and a suite on the road. he sold his mother, his mothers mother, and his mothers mothers mother.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Jan 8, 2009 14:03:29 GMT -5
It's also not like no trade clauses aren't standard, and how, exactly, does the opt out hurt the Yankees? If he leaves in 3 years, that'd be awesome. I am not really sure what you and fanny are arguing about at this point, but I know you are smarter than to claim that a no trade clause and an opt-out are not significant chips in CC's favor. If he leaves in 3 years, theoretically it is only because he thinks he can make more money on the open market, which means the Yankees take on almost all of the risk and gain few of the benefits of a very long contract for any pitcher, let alone one who may or may not be all that interested in staying in shape. Ditto the no trade clause- there is a reason the Red Sox refuse to give them to anyone (including Teixeira)- it harms their flexibility.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 8, 2009 14:08:05 GMT -5
Sox offered more money than the Yanks. They had a deal with incentives that would have exceeded the Yank's deal. It wasn't about money at all. Teixeira wanted to be a yankee, his wife wanted to be in NY and they used the Sox to drive up the asking price on the Yankees. Well played by Boras.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Jan 8, 2009 14:19:08 GMT -5
It's also not like no trade clauses aren't standard, and how, exactly, does the opt out hurt the Yankees? If he leaves in 3 years, that'd be awesome. I am not really sure what you and fanny are arguing about at this point, but I know you are smarter than to claim that a no trade clause and an opt-out are not significant chips in CC's favor. If he leaves in 3 years, theoretically it is only because he thinks he can make more money on the open market, which means the Yankees take on almost all of the risk and gain few of the benefits of a very long contract for any pitcher, let alone one who may or may not be all that interested in staying in shape. Ditto the no trade clause- there is a reason the Red Sox refuse to give them to anyone (including Teixeira)- it harms their flexibility. exactly...and he's not that smart.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Jan 8, 2009 14:24:44 GMT -5
I am not really sure what you and fanny are arguing about at this point, but I know you are smarter than to claim that a no trade clause and an opt-out are not significant chips in CC's favor. If he leaves in 3 years, theoretically it is only because he thinks he can make more money on the open market, which means the Yankees take on almost all of the risk and gain few of the benefits of a very long contract for any pitcher, let alone one who may or may not be all that interested in staying in shape. Ditto the no trade clause- there is a reason the Red Sox refuse to give them to anyone (including Teixeira)- it harms their flexibility. exactly...and he isn't that smart. Actually, I have always found HS/Borat to be a very rational and thoughtful fan, despite his evil pinstriped heart. I am a bit surprised to see him making some of the arguments he is making here.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 8, 2009 14:27:21 GMT -5
I vouch for HS/B. He's a bit of a homer, but why wouldn't you be after all the excitement the Yankees have had this off-season. I think a guy can be excused for getting all jazzed up after his team drops a half-billion in a couple months. I know I would be.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Jan 8, 2009 14:31:18 GMT -5
this is a guy that called pedroia a 'scrub' his rookie year, just because he is on boston. that alone prevents him from being anything close to 'smart'. the only players that exist in his world play in the bronx, everyone else is subpar. typical yankee fan.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 8, 2009 14:52:56 GMT -5
this is a guy that called pedroia a 'scrub' his rookie year, just because he is on boston. that alone prevents him from being anything close to 'smart'. the only players that exist in his world play in the bronx, everyone else is subpar. typical yankee fan. I also called Pedroia a scrub his rookie year. You might recall he came out batting a blistering .120. Horrible. In fact, I had the pleasure of sitting next to Theo at a late season A's-Sox game where I mocked Dustin the entire time. Theo agreed that it did look as if our starting second basemen had just flown in from the Little League World Series. [Edit] - Note this was the late summer before his "rookie" season when Dustin had been called up and looked a little out of his depth. He went on to look a little out of his depth for more than a few weeks into his rookie season.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Jan 8, 2009 15:00:55 GMT -5
he said it either around playoff time or when the ROY was announced in '07. with a lazy slug like cano as his second baseman, you'd figure he'd appreciate someone that actually hustles.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Jan 8, 2009 15:13:35 GMT -5
A no trade clause obviously in his favor, my point was that many huge free agents get them. That is not Cashman bending over backwards to accomodate a free agent. And you're wrong about the Red Sox not giving them, as Manny had one, JD Drew's is limited, Mike Lowell has one (and gets a suite on the road), and Dice-K has full no trade clause. Dice-K's other perks: physical therapist, massage therapist, interpreter, 8 first-class round-trip airline tickets per year between Boston & Japan, spring training housing allowance of up to $25,000, Boston housing allowance of up to $75,000, one-time moving allowance of up to $35,000, use of Lincoln Town Car or similar car, Red Sox player ticket package, including 2 field box seats, team employee to assist Japanese media, uniform No. 18 Man...Theo sure sold his mother there...whatever that means. The opt out clause is obviously in his favor, if he wins 3 Cy Young awards he can opt out and seek more money...from who, anyone's guess. As is, he'd be leaving over 90 million on the table and banking on an economic rebound. Is it risky? Maybe. But not very. He'd have to be the best pitcher in baseball, by far, to invoke it. As is, if he doesn't opt out, which is the assumption, his deal is basically Santana's with an extra year tacked on. It's also not like no trade clauses aren't standard, and how, exactly, does the opt out hurt the Yankees? If he leaves in 3 years, that'd be awesome. I am not really sure what you and fanny are arguing about at this point, but I know you are smarter than to claim that a no trade clause and an opt-out are not significant chips in CC's favor. If he leaves in 3 years, theoretically it is only because he thinks he can make more money on the open market, which means the Yankees take on almost all of the risk and gain few of the benefits of a very long contract for any pitcher, let alone one who may or may not be all that interested in staying in shape. Ditto the no trade clause- there is a reason the Red Sox refuse to give them to anyone (including Teixeira)- it harms their flexibility.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Jan 8, 2009 15:21:23 GMT -5
I actually said it after Pedroia attempted to knock the ball out of Victor Martinez's hands while running to first, a la A-Rod in the 2004 ALCS, and how no one made a big deal about it at the time b/c he's a scrub compared to A-Rod. That still holds true, but not b/c he's a scrub, it's b/c A-Rod is not gritty. Pedroia is wicked gritty. he said it either around playoff time or when the ROY was announced in '07. with a lazy slug like cano as his second baseman, you'd figure he'd appreciate someone that actually hustles.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Jan 8, 2009 15:31:30 GMT -5
Much appreciated, though, in my defense, I spent 3 posts in the other thread arguing with fellow Yankee fans against the perception that somehow the Yankees lowered their payroll between this season and last. IMO, the Yankees clearly overpaid for Sabathia, but his deal is similar to Santana's, so I wasn't too dismayed. Teixeira is awesome, and the best offensive position player on the market, but 8 years is a long time. They could have achieved a similar offensive boost in signing Dunn for a shorter amount of time. That said, his contract is not terrible, and they did not drive the Teix market. Burnett made me want to vomit. Still does. 2 out of 3 ain't bad though, and buying low on Swisher was also something I applauded. I vouch for HS/B. He's a bit of a homer, but why wouldn't you be after all the excitement the Yankees have had this off-season. I think a guy can be excused for getting all jazzed up after his team drops a half-billion in a couple months. I know I would be.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Jan 8, 2009 15:33:04 GMT -5
borat,
can we at least agree that cashman felt obligated to throw everything at cc because he failed to pull the trigger on the santana deal last year? hughes (who i think will be very good), kennedy, and melky would have done it and he balked at that asking price. now, teams don't want to give them anything for either melky or kennedy.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Jan 8, 2009 15:48:05 GMT -5
Love your shifting standards...and you're right. Dice-K couldn't afford those things with his multimillion dollar contract. The Red Sox needed to sweeten the pot to sign him, ESPECIALLY given that they were the only team he could negotiate with after the posting process. And I still don't get this, I am not disputing that the Yankees blew everyone away for CC. I took issue with your claim that the Yankees blew everyone out of the water for Mark Teixeira, which, even Red Sox fans agree, is not the case. Boras played Theo. It's what he does. are you really comparing a guy going from milwaukee to ny to a guy moving halfway across the world to a country where he barely speaks the language? lame. the yankees were not cc's first, second, or third choice. only cashman giving him everything but the keys to executive crapper changed his mind.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Jan 8, 2009 15:52:40 GMT -5
I don't think that package would have done it...but, hypothetically, even if it would have, Sabathia is a comparable pitcher and received a comparable contract, and Cashman got to keep all of those assets, regardless of whether they appreciated or depreciated in value. How did he make the wrong decision there? To me, it seems like this was his plan all along. Why give up money AND prospects when you can just give up money? borat, can we at least agree that cashman felt obligated to throw everything at cc because he failed to pull the trigger on the santana deal last year? hughes (who i think will be very good), kennedy, and melky would have done it and he balked at that asking price. now, teams don't want to give them anything for either melky or kennedy.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Jan 8, 2009 16:10:53 GMT -5
they didn't just give up money. cc, burnett, and tex are all type a free agents. they lose 1st round draft picks for each signing. those are better assets than cabrera or kennedy.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 8, 2009 16:40:22 GMT -5
No, they don't. They lose a first, second and third round pick. The biggest loser is Brewers and Jays who now only gain a second and third round pick respectively, while Angels get the first round pick. [EDIT] Quick google suggests I was close. See link: www.sportsworldny.com/index.php?showtopic=21744The Angels' gain is the loss of Milwaukee and Toronto, with the Brewers probably feeling the worst about Teixeira donning the pinstripes. Since Sabathia's ranking of 98.110 was better than Burnett's 89.729, Milwaukee was in line to get that first-round pick instead of the Angels. Instead, the Brewers will get a supplemental first-round pick as well as the Yankees' second-round selection. The Jays get the sandwich pick along with New York's third-round slot.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jan 8, 2009 16:46:16 GMT -5
I think Santana is better than CC, hands down. But, that's a completely subjective opinion. Objectively though, CC has been pretty horrible against the Sox. So, I'm not sure I'd be all geeked up about that signing. It could be a disaster. I'd be much more smug about Teixeira, he's a complete stud.
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