rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on Apr 27, 2011 11:48:15 GMT -5
Isn't that something - the next conspiracy is that the poll numbers drove this. Frankly, this is another example of conservatives getting something dead wrong and embarassingly so. Fortunately, this little mistake did not cost the country trillions of dollars, 8 million jobs, or thousands of lives. Conspiracy? The latest USA Today/Gallup poll on the subject, announced yesterday, showed that a grand total of 38% of Americans -- Americans mind you, not just Republicans -- believed "definitely" that Obama was born in the United States. www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2011-04-25-trump-president-poll.htmI'm pretty sure that the White House correctly realized they were milking a dead horse and needed to shut it down before losing even more independents. I mean, it's not like Obama just found his birth certificate this week; he's had it at his disposal for the past two years -- he and his people have enjoyed using the birthers to discredit the GOP and conservatism in general and now it was on the cusp of backfiring. A fun one that could replace the birther silliness is that Obama allegedly applied to Occidental College as an international student (which is easy to believe but still completely meaningless, I had a coworker get into Notre Dame the same way). The demand to release his undergraduate transcripts could also prove humorous, but the time to force that issue was on the campaign trail in 2008. Oh well. |
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Post by hoyawatcher on Apr 27, 2011 12:11:36 GMT -5
The Ross has it. Obama started paying a price for his secretiveness and decided to cut his losses. Until then it was a fun issue for him to hold out for his base. The unfortunate (or fortunate thing depending on your view of Trump  ) is that this has given Trump a bump and some credibility. Personally I kind of enjoy his performances at time but would rather have someone else and other issues in the limelight. |
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Apr 27, 2011 12:12:29 GMT -5
. I mean, it's not like Obama just found his birth certificate this week; he's had it at his disposal for the past two years -- he and his people have enjoyed using the birthers to discredit the GOP and conservatism in general and now it was on the cusp of backfiring. Except this isn't true at all, Obama had to convince Hawaii to break its own laws to obtain a copy of this. The relevant statute states: So while he could access it, he couldn't make a copy of it or make it part of the public domain under the law. |
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Apr 27, 2011 12:15:38 GMT -5
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Apr 27, 2011 12:35:15 GMT -5
Well, now that you mention it, about the typeface on that document allegedly from "1961"...... ;D I'm not sure why a state representative is worth anyone's attention on this particular issue, but all I would say to Rep. Berman is this: If you have this "evidence" that you claim to have, then produce it. What are you hiding it for? If we actually elected a non-citizen as president, isn't that a Constitutional crisis at least, if not a matter of utmost national security? Why haven't you come out with this already? But, I imagine I won't have the opportunity to put my question in front of the representative. |
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HoyaNyr320
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Post by HoyaNyr320 on Apr 27, 2011 13:01:13 GMT -5
The Ross has it. Obama started paying a price for his secretiveness and decided to cut his losses. Until then it was a fun issue for him to hold out for his base. The unfortunate (or fortunate thing depending on your view of Trump ) is that this has given Trump a bump and some credibility. Personally I kind of enjoy his performances at time but would rather have someone else and other issues in the limelight. I was hoping that as the resident birther on this board you would post here saying that the certificate released is legitimate. Congratulations, you're not a crazy person! Paying a price for secretiveness? You mean the fact that he followed Hawaii law during the campaign and obtained the form of birth certificate that every Hawaiian obtains to get a Passport or prove citizenship? He wasn't "holding out" on any issue, it was the crazy birthers that were grasping for straws! Now, only the craziest of the crazies can continue yelling at windmills. I'm glad that you don't count yourself as one of them. |
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Post by hoyawatcher on Apr 27, 2011 13:49:54 GMT -5
Resident birther? Gotta go back and see what I did to deserve that one. Not sure if it is better or worse than being labeled a racist. Without debating the letter of the law versus the implementation of the law and whether anyone else was getting long forms from the records department, does anyone really believe that if the President of the US wanted his long form of a birth certificate in the public domain it would happen? He didn't want it available and went to lengths to support it staying out of the public domain because he saw it to his advantage. His recalcitrance and Trump's focus changed that. So now it "magically" happened. I admit to being highly jaundiced in my view of Obama but this was more entertainment value of watching him have to react to Trump. I expect we will get to see more of it in this Sitzkrieg part of the election cycle before the real candidate emerges. |
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TC
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Post by TC on Apr 27, 2011 13:57:23 GMT -5
Without debating the letter of the law versus the implementation of the law and whether anyone else was getting long forms from the records department, does anyone really believe that if the President of the US wanted his long form of a birth certificate in the public domain it would happen? He didn't want it available and went to lengths to support it staying out of the public domain because he saw it to his advantage. Doing nothing about it does not equal "went to lengths". I'm just glad we're done with this issue until the 2016 South Carolina Republican Primary. |
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Post by hoyawatcher on Apr 27, 2011 14:10:14 GMT -5
Without debating the letter of the law versus the implementation of the law and whether anyone else was getting long forms from the records department, does anyone really believe that if the President of the US wanted his long form of a birth certificate in the public domain it would happen? He didn't want it available and went to lengths to support it staying out of the public domain because he saw it to his advantage. Doing nothing about it does not equal "went to lengths". I'm just glad we're done with this issue until the 2016 South Carolina Republican Primary. Without getting into a tiff about whether it was or not $2 M and frankly I don't care, this quote is from the I hope even handed enough web site PolitiFact It's certainly true that the Obama campaign has spent some amount of money opposing an array of lawsuits brought by people who claim that Obama has failed to produce a legitimate birth certificate and is therefore ineligible to serve as president. But has the president spent $2 million?I think it is fair to say he went to some length (however you define length ) in keeping the long form private. It was in his interest but not fair to say he did nothing. www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/apr/12/donald-trump/donald-trump-claims-obama-has-spent-2-million-lega/ |
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TC
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Post by TC on Apr 27, 2011 14:27:46 GMT -5
I think it is fair to say he went to some length (however you define length ) in keeping the long form private. It was in his interest but not fair to say he did nothing. Unless my understanding is wrong : - none of those lawsuits were to keep the long form private - many of those lawsuits attacked the legitimacy of the Presidency surrounding this issue, but not in ways that the long form birth certificate would have addressed comprehensively. For example Orly Taitz's Kenyan documents, her interpretation of "natural born citizen" as two parents who are citizens, etc |
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Post by hoyawatcher on Apr 27, 2011 14:51:50 GMT -5
I'm just a little simple minded birther but in my simple world if you want to address lawsuits you are not "American Born" you release your full birth certificate. If you want to sue that both parents have to be natural born citizens before you are then I don't know what to say other than that is an entirely different suit and universe.
FWIW outside of my simple little world I am pretty sure that some of these legal fees were for opposing FOI requests for the long form but I am not going to take the time to parse that out with a link.
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HoyaNyr320
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Post by HoyaNyr320 on Apr 27, 2011 15:11:52 GMT -5
I'm just a little simple minded birther but in my simple world if you want to address lawsuits you are not "American Born" you release your full birth certificate. If you want to sue that both parents have to be natural born citizens before you are then I don't know what to say other than that is an entirely different suit and universe. FWIW outside of my simple little world I am pretty sure that some of these legal fees were for opposing FOI requests for the long form but I am not going to take the time to parse that out with a link. Yes, you do live in a simple world. Any FOIA request would be submitted to the State of Hawaii. It's up to the State of Hawaii to defend denials of these requests, not President Obama. If I petitioned the state you were born in for a "long form" copy of your birth certification, do you think you would need to pay legal fees to prevent them from releasing it? Of course not... they simply wouldn't release it! The $2 million number was the amount of legal fees for all campaign wind-down efforts, nothing to do with silly birther lawsuits from people who either a) don't want to believe Obama was born in this country for some reason (which of course has nothing to do with race  ) or b) don't agree with the Hawaii legislature, who decided that their State Dept. of Health should adopt modern technology and use Certifications of Live Birth as their official proof of birth document rather than having to dig into a vault any time someone needed to apply for a Passport. I'm gonna go out on a limb that we have more birthers that fall into category a) than b) |
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Apr 27, 2011 15:13:42 GMT -5
I'm just a little simple minded birther but in my simple world if you want to address lawsuits you are not "American Born" you release your full birth certificate. If you want to sue that both parents have to be natural born citizens before you are then I don't know what to say other than that is an entirely different suit and universe. FWIW outside of my simple little world I am pretty sure that some of these legal fees were for opposing FOI requests for the long form but I am not going to take the time to parse that out with a link. On an inevitability scale from 1 to 100 on posts that had to follow this one, I give this about a 96.5: ;D |
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TC
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Post by TC on Apr 27, 2011 15:19:54 GMT -5
I'm just a little simple minded birther but in my simple world if you want to address lawsuits you are not "American Born" you release your full birth certificate. The best way to respond to a purely political attack is usually not to give in. I don't dispute the idea that he did this because the whole birther thing began to be a distraction but the idea that he has been jumping through hoops (vs just inaction) to keep his long form birth certificate private is fairly ridiculous. The long form birth certificate has never been a sincere issue for the people pursuing this - look at Orly Taitz today, she has already said she thinks the whole thing is a fraud with the most dog-whistly of dog-whistle reasons. |
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TC
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Post by TC on Apr 28, 2011 11:05:59 GMT -5
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Apr 28, 2011 11:18:59 GMT -5
Corsi also authored a swift-boat book, which perhaps says enough about him and his love of the country and those who serve it, to say nothing of the birthers and birther-curious voters on the right.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Apr 28, 2011 12:15:46 GMT -5
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HoyaNyr320
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Post by HoyaNyr320 on Apr 28, 2011 12:33:34 GMT -5
"As Obama acknowledged, he won’t ever satisfy a certain 'segment of people.' For racial and other sinister reasons, they are determined to view him as illegitimate." Agreed. |
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TC
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Post by TC on Apr 28, 2011 12:40:44 GMT -5
Let's look at Dana Milbank's latest columns, before yesterday's announcement :
April 12 : Obama's Birth Secret revealed, about how the birther conspiracy has gone mainstream
April 13 : article on Paul Ryan budget
April 19 : article on Republican candidates, talks about birther issue
April 20 : article on Obama and Facebook, talks about birther question
April 21 : article on Breitbart, talks about birther issue
April 26 : article on Obama "lost in thought" blah blah blah too heady
So of his last 6 articles, 4 have touched on birtherism, and the last is sort of a meta column that could considered criticism of him not addressing it. None have been on Afghanistan.
The better critique would be how the media swept the defense changeup to Page 17, not in how Obama addressed something that Milbank has been writing about all month long.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Apr 28, 2011 13:00:36 GMT -5
Corsi also authored a swift-boat book, which perhaps says enough about him and his love of the country and those who serve it, to say nothing of the birthers and birther-curious voters on the right. No, what does it say about his love of his country or those who serve it? Seems like you're saying that if you criticize a veteran, you don't love your country or those who served in the military. |
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) is that this has given Trump a bump and some credibility. Personally I kind of enjoy his performances at time but would rather have someone else and other issues in the limelight.
) or b) don't agree with the Hawaii legislature, who decided that their State Dept. of Health should adopt modern technology and use Certifications of Live Birth as their official proof of birth document rather than having to dig into a vault any time someone needed to apply for a Passport.