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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Apr 26, 2011 15:26:18 GMT -5
I can't speak for others, but I have not mentioned racism in this thread. I would classify some of the political discourse on the right as involving racially-motivated commentary, particularly the birthers. Do I think they want to do what folks decades ago did, if that is what is defined as racism? No. Do I think there are some vestiges of old thinking in what they're pushing today? Absolutely, and I think it needs to be called out. I happen to think one does not simply get off the hook by asking whether something is racist, as defined in old ways, and simply saying, well it is not that bad, so it can't be bad.
Where I always end up on this kind of stuff is that I ask myself whether certain dialogue is necessary. Is it necessary for protestors to call Barney Frank a derogatory term? Is it necessary to play certain purported satire songs on the radio that refer to the President in a certain way? Is it necessary to raise questions about his citizenship in light of settled law, state procedure, and the history of this kind of thing?
If this is a matter of the Constitution, take it up in the courts with Orly Taitz. For whatever reason, we don't see that happening, and I find it telling. Still, I recognize that it is the right of these creatures to raise these points and pseudo-arguments, and the cost of their nonsense is paid by the rest of us who have to listen to it.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Apr 26, 2011 15:33:42 GMT -5
For the record, my intention is not to deny the possibility of racism. My intention is to challenge the certainty of racism.
I'd have to go back to read some posts to see if I may have not represented my opinions in that manner. But I am too tired and it's getting too close to the Bruins-Canadiens game.
(I do not discount the possibility that this impending playoff game has me entirely too much on edge. If utterly despising and detesting all things associated with Montreal -- except their strippers -- means that I am a racist, well I'm afraid I must plead guilty 100%).
I do not apologize for what my intentions are. But to any extent I have not been clear, or I have not represented the above as transparently as I would like to, well then I do apologize for that.
But I will continue to challenge the certainty with which so many seem to ascribe racism to others. This is one of the ugliest charges/offenses - if not the ugliest - in modern society, short of actual physical violence, and I think it needs to be weighed far more carefully before being leveled.
Sorry for the distraction: let's get back to the main thread subject.
Topic: Ron Paul supporters. Nutbars, or just young people who are drunk? Discuss. ;D
(I like Ron Paul, actually, as a Congressman. I don't want him to be President though, mainly because while I share many of his libertarian instincts, I think he is just plain naive or worse as far as foreign policy goes.)
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Apr 26, 2011 15:37:06 GMT -5
I have not read the entire thread, but I don't think anybody is ascribing certainty of racism. We know the charge is ugly, but be clear about who is making it, or what racism is in the first place because it is just as awful to say someone is calling another a racist when no such comment has been made. I think you have been careful, but I'm not sure the motives of all in our politics are as well-intentioned.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Apr 27, 2011 8:29:42 GMT -5
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Apr 27, 2011 8:59:17 GMT -5
Well done, Mr. President. Looking at the actual birth certificate just released I just wonder why he didn't release this much, much earlier. Nothing on it that could even embarrass the president. Guess he read the polls and decided now he had to release it, but, for whatever reason, you have now put this to rest. Again, well done.
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Post by showcase on Apr 27, 2011 9:42:10 GMT -5
You think this little document is going to placate the rabid birther masses? Sure, it might peel off some of the periphery, but the true believers have become too invested over the past 3 years to give up now.
My prediction is that birther 2.0 will drop inside of 48 hours.
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ksf42001
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Post by ksf42001 on Apr 27, 2011 9:48:34 GMT -5
Original FoxNews.com headline: "White House Releases What it Says Is President Obama's Long-Form Birth Certificate" Well played Fox, well played...
Also, I think it's a really sad day for America that it's come to this. How the collective ignorance of this country required the president do something to show them how stupid they are.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Apr 27, 2011 9:53:15 GMT -5
Well done, Mr. President. Looking at the actual birth certificate just released I just wonder why he didn't release this much, much earlier. Nothing on it that could even embarrass the president. Guess he read the polls and decided now he had to release it, but, for whatever reason, you have now put this to rest. Again, well done. Isn't that something - the next conspiracy is that the poll numbers drove this. Frankly, this is another example of conservatives getting something dead wrong and embarassingly so. Fortunately, this little mistake did not cost the country trillions of dollars, 8 million jobs, or thousands of lives. |
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TC
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Post by TC on Apr 27, 2011 9:59:37 GMT -5
Both Palin and Trump now seem to think they deserve some sort of credit for this. This isn't an achievement - this is like a toddler throwing a tantrum in a store over a piece of candy and causing such a scene that intervention was needed - congratulations, you managed to force the issue and demand the attention of grown ups over something childish. That's not what people look for in a leader.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Apr 27, 2011 10:16:44 GMT -5
Good for the President for releasing the information.
Bad for the President that he keeps the lid on his college records.
Good for the country that no one really cares (besides the usual carnival barkers).
Better for the country that we are a day closer to 1/20/13.
Lest I be misconstrued and demonized here, 1/20/13 should bring to a close all of the anti-Obama mania which is best demostrated in the birth certificate issue. Win or lose, his qualifications will be of no moment come 1/20/13.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Apr 27, 2011 10:36:00 GMT -5
Well done, Mr. President. Looking at the actual birth certificate just released I just wonder why he didn't release this much, much earlier. Nothing on it that could even embarrass the president. Guess he read the polls and decided now he had to release it, but, for whatever reason, you have now put this to rest. Again, well done. Isn't that something - the next conspiracy is that the poll numbers drove this. Frankly, this is another example of conservatives getting something dead wrong and embarassingly so. Fortunately, this little mistake did not cost the country trillions of dollars, 8 million jobs, or thousands of lives. Most conservatives long ago abandoned this issue. Please don't tie it to conservatives unless you'd like liberals shackled to some utterly nasty things. |
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Apr 27, 2011 10:42:46 GMT -5
I think my favorite comment on this whole issue came from Jim Treacher (paraphrase):
"How do I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Barack Obama was born in the United States? Because Hillary Clinton is not the President."
;D
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ksf42001
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Post by ksf42001 on Apr 27, 2011 10:45:06 GMT -5
Isn't that something - the next conspiracy is that the poll numbers drove this. Frankly, this is another example of conservatives getting something dead wrong and embarassingly so. Fortunately, this little mistake did not cost the country trillions of dollars, 8 million jobs, or thousands of lives. Most conservatives long ago abandoned this issue. Please don't tie it to conservatives unless you'd like liberals shackled to some utterly nasty things. Do you mean conservative politicians or conservatives in general? Since polling made it pretty clear that most conservatives in general didn't think it was a dead issue. |
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Apr 27, 2011 10:52:56 GMT -5
Most conservatives long ago abandoned this issue. That may be true, but 45% of Republicans, and 45% of Tea Partiers didn't abandon it long ago. |
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Apr 27, 2011 10:54:11 GMT -5
Exactly, ksf. I'd have more respect for them if they just took responsibility for something...err anything. At least they can go to bed tonight comfortable that Barack Obama is as American as they are.
A February poll put the number at 51% among Republican primary voters, but perhaps February was long ago.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Apr 27, 2011 10:57:54 GMT -5
While I hope we will never again have to discuss this issue, I do think Obama was more than a little petulant about it today.
I don't mind that he holds people who believe this sort of thing in contempt. I pretty much do too.
But Mr. President, your birth certificate was NOT the "dominant" news story this week. It was not even CLOSE to being the dominant news story. It wasn't even in the same zip code as the dominant news story, which was, remains, and will remain for the foreseeable future: the economy.
So let's not pretend you were "forced" into anything here.
But, I suppose, other people have been playing politics with your citizenship, so I guess you can too. But just a reminder: for most of us, it's not really about you. (Not about you as a person, anyway; it's most definitely about you, at least in part, as a policymaker).
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Apr 27, 2011 11:02:28 GMT -5
Self-involved much Mr. Obama? Since you probably don't have to fill your own tank as you zip off to another golf match, I'm paying over $4.00 a gallon for gas, more than I paid when "Big Oil's" bagmen occupied the White House. That's the big story in my house.
To paraphrase W, "you're doing a hell of a job..."
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Apr 27, 2011 11:06:20 GMT -5
For the record, my intention is not to deny the possibility of racism. My intention is to challenge the certainty of racism. I'd have to go back to read some posts to see if I may have not represented my opinions in that manner. But I am too tired and it's getting too close to the Bruins-Canadiens game. (I do not discount the possibility that this impending playoff game has me entirely too much on edge. If utterly despising and detesting all things associated with Montreal -- except their strippers -- means that I am a racist, well I'm afraid I must plead guilty 100%). I do not apologize for what my intentions are. But to any extent I have not been clear, or I have not represented the above as transparently as I would like to, well then I do apologize for that. But I will continue to challenge the certainty with which so many seem to ascribe racism to others. This is one of the ugliest charges/offenses - if not the ugliest - in modern society, short of actual physical violence, and I think it needs to be weighed far more carefully before being leveled. Sorry for the distraction: let's get back to the main thread subject. Topic: Ron Paul supporters. Nutbars, or just young people who are drunk? Discuss. ;D (I like Ron Paul, actually, as a Congressman. I don't want him to be President though, mainly because while I share many of his libertarian instincts, I think he is just plain naive or worse as far as foreign policy goes.) Ok, let's clear the air here. There are two different statements: A. What you said/did was racist. B. You are a racist. A is a legitimate complaint, B can only be known if you're a mind reader. That said, I'm tired of conservatives reacting to A as if B was asked. I am also tired of the notion that racism is no longer problem, but being accused of racism is a rank injustice that is the #1 problem facing America. |
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ksf42001
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Post by ksf42001 on Apr 27, 2011 11:27:55 GMT -5
Self-involved much Mr. Obama? Since you probably don't have to fill your own tank as you zip off to another golf match, I'm paying over $4.00 a gallon for gas, more than I paid when "Big Oil's" bagmen occupied the White House. That's the big story in my house. To paraphrase W, "you're doing a hell of a job..." I think you completely overestimate the role the president has in terms of gas prices. Also, while you may be paying more for gas right now then right before the bubble bust, there's still another 35 cents to go for the nation as a whole. The one thing I've been curious about, but haven't seen an explanation for, is why gas prices are so high this time compared to oil prices. Oil is still 40% below its 2008 peak, but gas is a little less than 10% below its 2008 peak. Has anyone seen an explanation for that difference? |
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Apr 27, 2011 11:32:15 GMT -5
Of course I overestimate the role the President has in regard to gas prices. Just not as much as our current President did when lambasting his predecessor for high gas prices. Throw in that Mr. Obama routinely suggested that Bush/Cheney were "Big Oil" henchmen, and you see just what a donkey he looks like for doing it.
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