DNC 2008 Thread

[Boz]

Aug 26, 2008 13:26:56 GMT -5 EasyEd said:

Bill Clinton's initial say thehill.com/campaign-2008/bill-clinton-in-denver-again-undercuts-obama-2008-08-26.html

One interpretation of Bill Clinton's remarks:

"This is the worst-looking hat I ever saw. When you buy a hat like this, I bet you get a free bowl of soup. Oh. It looks good on you though."

;D

[Elvado]

I reiterate my belief that John McCain's two surest votes in the election outside his wife and himself will be cast in Chappaqua, NY.

[rosslynhoya]

For the benefit of those who don't follow links on message boards:

He said: "Suppose you're a voter, and you've got candidate X and candidate Y. Candidate X agrees with you on everything, but you don't think that candidate can deliver on anything at all. Candidate Y you agree with on about half the issues, but he can deliver. Which candidate are you going to vote for?"

Then, perhaps mindful of how his off-the-cuff remarks might be taken, Clinton added after a pause: "This has nothing to do with what's going on now."

[Boz]

Well, if nothing else, the DNC has sparked quite a civil war over at MSNBC.

Joe Scarborough vs. ....well, pretty much everyone else.

Entertaining stuff. ;D


Though, cynic that I am, it's entirely possible that that whole dustup was scripted too, so MSNBC could prove that they're not as liberal as Fox is conservative. I doubt it, everyone looked pretty genuinely Editeded at each other, but it's possible.

[jerseyhoya34]

Aug 26, 2008 15:09:35 GMT -5 Elvado said:

I reiterate my belief that John McCain's two surest votes in the election outside his wife and himself will be cast in Chappaqua, NY.

This may be the first time that we've agreed, vado. Bill and Hillary are vindictive and mean politicians. Hillary has to be careful because I think the chunk of Obama voters who would not vote for her is larger than her bloc of dead-enders.

[AustinHoya03]

David Brooks thinks this convention is full of idiots:

www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/opinion/26brooks.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

I'm no fan of Hillary, but damn ...

That may have breathed a lot of life into Obama's campaign.

Side note: Fox News is so dour now, its hilarious. The have the McCain Campaign statement on the bottom , a William Ayers story that has been known for weeks on the crawler, and Fred Barnes parroting the McCain press release and claiming it as analysis.

[jerseyhoya34]

Aug 26, 2008 22:21:57 GMT -5 StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) said:

I'm no fan of Hillary, but damn ...

That may have breathed a lot of life into Obama's campaign.

Side note: Fox News is so dour now, its hilarious. The have the McCain Campaign statement on the bottom , a William Ayers story that has been known for weeks on the crawler, and Fred Barnes parroting the McCain press release and claiming it as analysis.

I am not sure how much life it will breathe and appreciate HRC's effort tonight, but the time has long since passed for that speech to be made. She dragged this on, knew what she was doing, and did it in the name of a headlining spot in the convention.

I am hoping that the Dems go negative tomorrow with the Bill Clinton and Biden speeches. It is time to go to the woodshed and define McCain more clearly as Bush's twin on policy and Cheney's twin on character in office. No territory should be off-limits.

[RBHoya]

I don't usually do the political threads here, but IMO Elvado is totally right about Hilary. No way does she really want Barack to win. She's definitely going through the motions and trying to convince everyone that she's a good and loyal democrat, but she doesn't really want him to win. Why would she? If he loses she seems to be REALLY well-positioned in 2012. A lot of people will be saying, "We should have picked her the first time." And especially if McCain struggled to turn around many things in his first term, she'd have to be a big favorite.

If you were her, why would you want Obama to win? She (and all politicians) pays a lot of lip service to wanting change for the American people and all that. But really, they don't care, it's not as if they're the ones struggling with unemployment or high gas prices or fighting on the front lines. They're up in their mansions and livin large. And just like any other person, the Clintons care about themselves first and everybody else second (not an indictment of them, because everybody is that way). If you are Hilary would you rather see Barack win and then have to wait 8 more years to make another run at it, when you're old and youve lost a lot of your steam? Or would you rather watch McCain battle a democratic congress and catch flack for something largely out of his control (the economy... presidents role in the economy are way overblown imho), all the while holding your head up high while the unspoken consensus continues to be "we should have picked her the first time."

As far as I'm concerned, the Clintons are pulling for McCain and its a no-brainer. They just have to toe a fine line right now, they need to convince people that they are team players and that they really care about "Americans" more than themselves. But as Jersey said, they're shrewd politicians and I expect they'll pull it off. Not sure which way the election will go, but you can bet the Clintons are trying to do just enough to look like good Dems but not enough to win the election.

I think tonight was a good example of that. It was a good speech and people who want to believe that the Democrats aren't that divided and are going to make it work (like Olberman and his female counterpart on MSNBC) are going to praise it. But I wasn't overwhelmed by what she said about Obama. She didn't come out and say that he's ready or suggest that he understand the blue collar crowd (the same people whose votes she was getting and that Barack desperately needs). She just sort of said the same stuff as most others and put it into a speech that was nice from an oratory standpoint. If she had said anything less about Barack people would have said she's not doing enough/being a bad democrat, if she had done more she might have actually addressed the major problems Baracks having right now. So I'd say her speech was just right. If you turn on MSNBC Olberman's drooling about it, and if you turn on FoxNews they're all saying it was extremely minimal. Personally, I didn't think it was enough to really give Barack a huge boost with the group he needs. Whether or not he can make enough headway with that group on his own in the next few weeks is the big question.

[GIGAFAN99]

You know why I like the Clintons? Because they win. The Dems haven't quite gotten this concept. It's really the winning that matters because if you don't, you're not president.

As for the Obama supporters who won't vote for her, that's quite alright because she knows his supporters are made up of people who don't vote. That goes along with the "winning" thing. Know your audience Democrats. Hillary showed she knew it tonight. Mark Warner showed why he doesn't know it and why nobody knows him. But I'm sure Obama's supporters loved his speech.

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

Aug 26, 2008 23:26:41 GMT -5 @jerseyhoya34 said:

the time has long since passed for that speech to be made.

I really don't thing that's true.

If you are a completely-engaged Clinton fan who still hasn't been won over by Obama, its probably too late - you will be fighting on your own Japanese island until 2012 or 2016. Many of them are older female voters who tend to see Hillary as a symbol of equal rights that they haven't really realized. The train wreck interview with the dead-ender CNN found was instructive, those primary voters will just adjust their perception of reality to their recalcitrant beliefs. They will at best stay out of the election because their symbol is gone. For those people, this speech may have come too late, but it never would have changed some of their minds.

If you are like the vast majority of voters, a low-information voter who stopped paying attention to the campaigns in May/June, didn't attach the same significance to Hillary as a symbol, but preferred her to Obama - you are just tuning into the election again after disconnecting from the political news cycle in the summer and watching the Olympics. To those voters, there's no point in having this speech occur in July or early August when they wouldn't be paying attention. Sure Hillary got a big speaking engagement on all the networks, but wouldn't you rather know for sure that the low-information voters will see Hillary endorse Obama?

[strummer8526]

Aug 27, 2008 1:29:32 GMT -5 StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) said:

Aug 26, 2008 23:26:41 GMT -5 @jerseyhoya34 said:

the time has long since passed for that speech to be made.

If you are a completely-engaged Clinton fan who still hasn't been won over by Obama, its probably too late - you will be fighting on your own Japanese island until 2012 or 2016. Many of them are older female voters who tend to see Hillary as a symbol of equal rights that they haven't really realized. The train wreck interview with the dead-ender CNN found was instructive, those primary voters will just adjust their perception of reality to their recalcitrant beliefs. They will at best stay out of the election because their symbol is gone. For those people, this speech may have come too late, but it never would have changed some of their minds.

I thought Hillary's best little section was when she said, "Were you in it for me? Or were you in it for my positions?" That "dead-ender" as you called her (I would probably go with something even more harsh) was clearly in it for Hillary and has no concept of the substantive issues. If that interviewee had said, "I don't know if I will vote because Obama has not convinced me that he believes in the same policies Hillary does," then fine. I respect that. But to cry and say, "You know that was a presidential speech. She's just so great" is crap. When you look at issues, it should be a no-brainer that Hillary supporters vote for Obama.

[hilltopper2000]

I'm sure Bill and Hill want Obama to lose. But I honestly don't think she could win in 2012 following an Obama defeat. If Obama loses, she'll be dead to many many Democrats, because they will blame her kamikaze run in the primary and subsequent tepid support (as well as her immature, self-indulgent followers) for his defeat. Hillary lost to a better politician; it happens; grow up. All primary losers in my lifetime came around and supported the candidate of the party with far more enthusiasm than she and Bill have been able to muster.

[Deleted]

Hillary didn't get me all that fired up - but Brian Schweitzer? Now there's a guy I want to have a beer or twelve with...

I'm also glad that I don't live in Montana. I don't want my governor to be that wacky.

[Boz]

Hillary made a great speech and presented an impassioned case why a Democrat needs to be elected President.

She just didn't really make a strong case that said Democrat should be Barack Obama (except for the fact that he is the nominee).

I expect this will be her strategy through the fall. She will talk about her issues and the need for Democratic leadership, and then sum up by saying "...so vote for Barack Obama." (well, mnore or less; I expect her to say it a little better than that).

This is not even really a criticism. I don't necessarily think it's Hillary's job to make the case for Barack Obama. That's Barack Obama's job.

I think we'll get a lot of the same from Bill tonight. He'll talk about his record, his successes, and the "failures" of the last eight years. And he will tie all of that eloquently into why we should vote for Barack Obama. But he won't be extolling the virtues of Obama himself.

[EasyEd]

Once again, Robert Samuelson has a lot to say about both parties.

"What we have here -- to borrow a line from the old movie "Cool Hand Luke" -- is a failure to communicate. By all rights, we should be having a fierce debate over the role of government. What should it do, for whom and why? What can we afford? Who should pay? These questions would suggest a campaign that seriously engages the future. Instead, we have a bidding war between candidates to see who can promise the most appealing package of new spending programs and tax cuts."

" The most exhaustive examination of the McCain and Obama budget proposals I've found comes from the Tax Policy Center, sponsored jointly by the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution. It's discouraging reading. Though details differ, neither plan would realistically limit spending or eliminate deficits."

"Proposals aren't necessarily intended to be adopted. They're selected to win applause and please voters -- just as quarterbacks, in fantasy football, are selected for their accuracy. In November, one candidate will win this game. But the country as a whole may lose."

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/26/AR2008082603130.html

[Coast2CoastHoya]

Well said, ed. Failure to address some of our nation's long term economic problems could overshadow nearly any other policy differences the candidates might have.

The GAO has had some interesting things to say on the subject of the USA's long-term federal budget outlook: www.gao.gov/new.items/d07983r.pdf
www.gao.gov/new.items/d08411t.pdf

[hifigator]

Ambassador wrote:

... and Cheney's twin on character in office.

That is just utter hogwash. Are you really that desperate already?


As for Hillary, I thought that she did a very good job. Some have said that she didn't praise Obama specifically enough. I guess I could see that if you are a fence sitter that is truly undecided, but overall, I thought she did a very good job, and remember I don't like her at all.

[jerseyhoya34]

Aug 27, 2008 11:58:20 GMT -5 hifigator said:

Ambassador wrote:

... and Cheney's twin on character in office.

That is just utter hogwash. Are you really that desperate already?


As for Hillary, I thought that she did a very good job. Some have said that she didn't praise Obama specifically enough. I guess I could see that if you are a fence sitter that is truly undecided, but overall, I thought she did a very good job, and remember I don't like her at all.

I merely said that Dems should aim to define McCain as being Cheney's twin on character. That does not mean it is true, just as the Republican attacks on John Kerry's military service and honors were not empirically correct.

[Bando]

Clinton moved to end the roll call and nominate Obama by acclimation. Clearly, she's tearing this convention apart.