What "should" be illegal?

[kchoya]

Aug 12, 2008 11:55:06 GMT -5 strummer8526 said:

Aug 12, 2008 11:33:05 GMT -5 kchoya said:

2. recreational marijuana use - illegal

7. open containers of alcohol by persons of age, not in a vehicle - legal and should be legal in vehicles too for non-drivers

Happy to see someone else on the no recreational pot team.

Personally, I would love to drink in the car while someone else is driving, but I could see that leading to a TON of accidents. I just imagine my drunk-ass friends all over the car getting boozy. I don't know about that one. Do other countries allow non-drivers to drink in cars?

Montana did until about 3 or 4 years ago, until the Feds forced them to change.

[HoyaSinceBirth]

I think smoking should be illegal in all public enclosed areas including bars. The problem is if you ban smoking and a smoker wants to come in they still can they just can't smoke inside. Where as if you allow smoking and a non smoker ( who is sensitive to the smoke or doesn't want to get second hand smoke) then they can't come in. If you allow smoking you're restricting people's ability to enter a public place, whereas banning smoking doesn't restrict a smoking persons ability to enter a public place. They just can't light up when there. I think there should be designated public areas for people to smoke. I hate it when there's a pack of smokers right outside the entrances of buildings and you have to wlk through them while they blow smoke in your face. I suppose it wouldn't be a problem if people were more considerate but half the time walking down the street past a smoker they blow smoke right in your face. I don't think you should ban smoking outdoors since the effects of second hand smoke are not a big risk outdoors. and of course you should be free to do something like that in your own home if you so choose, but it would be better for your family's health if you smoked outdoors still.

[thebin]

It always amazes me how many people who think of themselves as libertarian reflexively think prostitution should be illegal just because.

I want to ask you people who think all forms of prostitution should be illegal if you think pornography should be illegal?

[Boz]

I think loud music also should be banned in all bars and clubs. If I go into the Black Cat, I have no choice but to subject myself to decibel levels that might damage my ears. All musicians should play quietly, with no amplified sound. All DJ's should be allowed to spin only podcasts that people can listen to on headphones if they wish.

I also think no restaurant should be allowed to cook with butter or any saturated fats, no red meats and no dairy. If I work in a restaurant kitchen, tasting food is part of my job, and I would have no choice but to taste food that is not good for my health, and I would have to do it every day that I go into work. It shouldn't be up to the restaurant what foods they would like have on their menu; for the safety of all chefs, line cooks and restaurant workers, everything unhealthy should just be banned.



(Sorry, I couldn't resist anymore)

[kchoya]

Aug 12, 2008 12:59:40 GMT -5 Boz said:

I think loud music also should be banned in all bars and clubs. If I go into the Black Cat, I have no choice but to subject myself to decibel levels that might damage my ears. All musicians should play quietly, with no amplified sound. All DJ's should be allowed to spin only podcasts that people can listen to on headphones if they wish.

I also think no restaurant should be allowed to cook with butter or any saturated fats, no red meats and no dairy. If I work in a restaurant kitchen, tasting food is part of my job, and I would have no choice but to taste food that is not good for my health, and I would have to do it every day that I go into work. It shouldn't be up to the restaurant what foods they would like have on their menu; for the safety of all chefs, line cooks and restaurant workers, everything unhealthy should just be banned.



(Sorry, I couldn't resist anymore)

We're going down that road:

LOS ANGELES — California, a national trendsetter in all matters edible, became the first state to ban trans fats in restaurants when Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger signed a bill Friday to phase out their use.

Who gets to decide what types of fats are acceptable, and which kinds are not?

[vcjack]

Aug 12, 2008 12:43:38 GMT -5 HoyaSinceBirth said:

I think smoking should be illegal in all public enclosed areas including bars. The problem is if you ban smoking and a smoker wants to come in they still can they just can't smoke inside. Where as if you allow smoking and a non smoker ( who is sensitive to the smoke or doesn't want to get second hand smoke) then they can't come in. If you allow smoking you're restricting people's ability to enter a public place, whereas banning smoking doesn't restrict a smoking persons ability to enter a public place. They just can't light up when there. I think there should be designated public areas for people to smoke. I hate it when there's a pack of smokers right outside the entrances of buildings and you have to wlk through them while they blow smoke in your face. I suppose it wouldn't be a problem if people were more considerate but half the time walking down the street past a smoker they blow smoke right in your face. I don't think you should ban smoking outdoors since the effects of second hand smoke are not a big risk outdoors. and of course you should be free to do something like that in your own home if you so choose, but it would be better for your family's health if you smoked outdoors still.

I understand why people sensitive to smoke would not want smokers around, but bars/resturants are private property. If Otto's Biker Bar wants to let people smoke because every patron smokes, they should be able to let them. If that means putting up a warning sign to let people know that its a smoking bar (kind of like how bars have to do for people with peanut allegies) then ok but they should have the choice as a private business

[kchoya]

Aug 12, 2008 12:48:51 GMT -5 thebin said:

It always amazes me how many people who think of themselves as libertarian reflexively think prostitution should be illegal just because.

I want to ask you people who think all forms of prostitution should be illegal if you think pornography should be illegal?

Prostitution - illegal
porno - status quo

[EasyEd]

I think it should be illegal to sell alcohol in bars because many people become alcoholics. If they want to drink alcohol they should go outside their own homes so the smell inside does not tempt other family members who may be flirting with alcoholism.

[HoyaSinceBirth]

I agree that a lot of it is very hypocritical. Why ban smoking when you allow alcohol. well this is the status quo that the majority has agreed upon.

And half the time i agree with you Vcjack. that they should be able to have Smoking and non smoking resturants/bars. (The whole smoking and non smoking sections doesn't work unless the two areas are seperated by a glass wall or something.) but the other half the time i stand by my argument that you're putting people's health at risk by allowing smoking in confined spaces like that. and to some extent you do have to protect people from themselves. hence things like helmet laws ( there to protect a brain that's functioning so poorly that it's not trying to protect itself)

It just seems like to me the majority of people don't want smoking inside restaurants/bars and when these cities voted on these laws they passed. If you don't like it move to somewhere that allows smoking.


Basically it comes down to this I'm in the majority and we don't want to have to deal with smoke so suck it up and wait till you're outside to light up so I'm happy. XP

[vcjack]

"It just seems like to me the majority of people don't want smoking inside restaurants/bars and when these cities voted on these laws they passed. If you don't like it move to somewhere that allows smoking."

Can't do that in a state like Illinois that bans smoking in ALL resturants and bars

[HoyaSinceBirth]

you know there are other states. and then other coutries. You can smoke all you want in Europe.

[vcjack]

Aug 12, 2008 14:10:23 GMT -5 HoyaSinceBirth said:

you know there are other states. and then other coutries. You can smoke all you want in Europe.

Can you eat foi gras in Europe? Because you can't do that either in Illinois

[hifigator]

OK, so of those who have given input, there is all of one person who is in favor of the types of blanket smoking bans that are becoming all too common. I haven't written down every vote, but from memory, we are all for regulated medicinal marijuana use. We are roughly split on prostitution. We are slightly against recreational marijuana. We are strongly in favor of legal gambling, both casino style and sports betting. The tinting issue is a bit surprising to me as I would think it would be a little more split but we are almost universally in favor of restrictive laws on that issue. And I think we are pretty much unanimously against the "harder" drugs.

Incidentally, I think the harder drug question is relatively simple. The way I see it, they are really prescription drugs. They aren't naturally occuring, at least in their normal state. They are basically a laboratory created compound, so I think they should be treated as such. And as of now, they are. With no medicinal value, they are essentially illegal prescription drugs.

Lastly, someone mentioned helmet laws. I have mixed emotions on this one. On one hand if you are in an accident, there is little doubt that you are more protected when wearing a helmet. You are less likely to die; and if you live, your injuries are much likely to be less severe when wearing a helmet. And injuries could place a burden on society in the form of unpaid medical bills and the sort. Just how much impact should that have on the issue and does that or should that trump individual freedoms?

I think the best argument I have heard against helmet laws came from my dad. He was an officer in the Florida ABATE group. For those who aren't familiar, ABATE stands for Association of Bikers Against Totalitarian Enforcement. It is basically a fancy name for the anti-helmet law group. In any case, his point was this:

Suppose you take all drivers and put a big helmet on them. What would happen to the calibre of driving? Almost certainly it would deteriorate. There would almost certainly be more accidents. Helmets are not only uncomfortable and cumbersome, but they restrict vision and hearing. You also tend to have a sort of tunnel vision type of behavior. The point is that you are automatically less aware of the goings on around you. Studies have also shown that you tend to drive faster wearing a helmet than without. In light of these facts, I find it hard to support a measure that will necessarily "cause" more accidents. I think that Florida has the law pretty much right. Minors must wear helmets. Adults must show a certain level of insurance coverage for the priviledge of not wearing a helmet. I think that is a pretty good compromise.

As an aside: you can now ride on I-10, all the way from Jacksonville Beach to the California state line legally without wearing a helmet, except for that little 30 or 40 mile stretch of Alabama.

[vcjack]

I don't think bikers should wear helmets, organ transplants have to come from somewhere people!

[kchoya]

Aug 12, 2008 14:38:02 GMT -5 vcjack said:

I don't think bikers should wear helmets, organ transplants have to come from somewhere people!

My wife is a surgeon. She calls them donor-cycles.

[thebin]

Aug 12, 2008 13:05:18 GMT -5 kchoya said:

Aug 12, 2008 12:48:51 GMT -5 thebin said:

It always amazes me how many people who think of themselves as libertarian reflexively think prostitution should be illegal just because.

I want to ask you people who think all forms of prostitution should be illegal if you think pornography should be illegal?

Prostitution - illegal
porno - status quo

That is in no way an answer, it's an utter evasion. The whole point of my question is to avoid issuing a worthles "status quo" platitude and tell me if YOU THINK porn should be illegal, not confirm to me that it is. Because there is no way a sane man can actually believe that porn should be legal and prostitution illegal at the same time. So I always like to know which it is with people who think it should be illegal to do something with another consenting adult for the purposes of commerce. Do you think they should both be legal or both illegal. I am with the former camp. Both legal.

You are refusing to answer the question I guess. Why reply at all then?

[Deleted]

Aug 12, 2008 14:10:23 GMT -5 HoyaSinceBirth said:

you know there are other states. and then other coutries. You can smoke all you want in Europe.

Not entirely true. Western (or, according to Donald Rumsfeld, "Old") Europe's jumping on the no-smoking bandwagon. Italy definitely (I was just there), I've heard Ireland, and I'm pretty sure Germany and France as well...that's just off the top of my head.

Eastern Europe's still mostly a free-for-all as far as I can tell.

[HoyaSinceBirth]

Aug 12, 2008 14:28:32 GMT -5 hifigator said:

Suppose you take all drivers and put a big helmet on them. What would happen to the calibre of driving? Almost certainly it would deteriorate. There would almost certainly be more accidents. Helmets are not only uncomfortable and cumbersome, but they restrict vision and hearing. You also tend to have a sort of tunnel vision type of behavior. The point is that you are automatically less aware of the goings on around you. Studies have also shown that you tend to drive faster wearing a helmet than without. In light of these facts, I find it hard to support a measure that will necessarily "cause" more accidents.

anyone who thinks wearing helmets will cause more accidents is an idiot. there i said it.

Really the caliber would obviously deteriorate if people wore helmets? I'd like to see a study proving that.

also there are plenty of helmets that do not restrict hearing or vision . You spout bull like it's absolute fact you're automatically less aware of your situation wearing a helmet? helmets will necessarily cause more accidents?! I've never once heard anyone blame an accident on a helmet. You can't seriously believe these things.

I understand the whole personal freedom thing but we don't allow people the freedom to do whatever you want.

I also feel that a person who isn't responsible to take care of their own safety is much more likely to act recklessly on the roads. I doubt the validity of such a study that says people with helmets drive faster because it is almost definitely a self reported study which raises questions about it's accuracy. Like you really remember how fast you were going every time you road with or with out a helmet. More likely they felt safer with the helmet so assumed they went faster then because it would be safer to do so. but it's likely they went just as fast with out a helmet but assumed they went slower since it would be more dangerous. Also correlation does not prove causation and the correlation probably works the other way more likely than not. People who naturally drive faster buy and wear helmets to protect themselves.

[thebin]

Aug 12, 2008 14:10:23 GMT -5 HoyaSinceBirth said:

you know there are other states. and then other coutries. You can smoke all you want in Europe.

Not true, Most of western Europe has followed our lead. You cannot smoke even in Dublin bars or Paris cafes now. I can't take a straight libertarian line on smoking because unlike two people engaging in sex for money, a person smoking in a restaurant actually bothers me. I'm not even talking about second hand cancer- it is just extremely unpleasant to be around. So it doesn't fit neatly into the libertarian "if it doesn't bother other people it should be fine" framework. Although I am torn because I also feel the bar owner should decided and the patrons either frequent the establisment or not.

[JohnJacquesLayup]

I'm for any smoking ban so I don't have to continue to hear the lady in the cubicle next to me hack up a lung every day. Jebus.