SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Jul 26, 2008 8:08:24 GMT -5
I don't follow the Sawx that closely, but what's the story with Manny? As a Yankee fan, there are some guys on the Red Sox for whom one might have respect, Ramirez was never one of them. OF course he puts up great numbers, but he's never seemed like a team guy -- sort of the anti-Varitek. But is this story true that he faked a knee injury to get out of the NY-Boston game last night? Who's fault is it that it's gotten this far out of hand? Francona? Epstein? Ownership? Teammates? No one but Manny? I'd appreciate hearing the perspective of some Boston fans. Shaughnessey from B Globe on Manny:www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2008/07/26/now_hes_a_guaranteed_out/
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jul 26, 2008 13:14:01 GMT -5
I certainly have no "inside info" on Manny or the specifics with regard to last night, but on the grander scale, I have asked the same thing. In fact, it was a discussion on our local sportstalk this past week. I think it was a sort of local follow up to Colin Cowherd's Overrated/Underrated question that he has featured recently. In any case, Manny Ramirez was my suggestion for "underrated." Not that he doesn't get noteriety, but compared to the numbers that he has consistently put up, I don't think he gets the "coverage" that he "deserves." I put them both in quotes, because in fairness, many an athlete has complained about the "coverage" and since "deserves" could imply that the "coverage" is positive, I thought the quotation marks significant.
In any case, I don't know how much his "team" mentality might weigh into it. Maybe he isn't the media friendly type or maybe he is simply a loner. Media tends to follow a story, and maybe he isn't enough of a story. But in my mind, he should be.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jul 26, 2008 17:17:39 GMT -5
This is just Shaughnessey. He's a troll. He has a target on Manny's back and has had one for years and always tries to stir up controversy. This is a veiled reference to a Yankee series many years ago now, where Manny claimed to be sick, but was seen in a bar later that night hanging out with a friend who played for the Yankees. Media (mainly Shaughnessey) made a big deal about it. In the case of this alleged scandal, Shaughnessey is mining the recent tension between management and Manny (which was also media induced) over Manny's perception that he was dealt with dishonestly in the past regarding the waiver wire fiasco. Shaughnessey knows that as soon as there is a little window at which to take pot shots at Manny, there is an opportunity to sell some papers, as Boston has long been divided between Manny lovers and Manny haters. I for one am on Manny's side.
Manny is the greatest hitter since Ted Williams. End of story. You can't dispute his numbers or his preparation or his love for the game. The fact that he doesn't have the same sanctimonious and ridiculous "respect for the game" as demanded by certain members of the media shouldn't take away from his incredible and unparalleled achievements in the modern era. Personally, I think its ridiculous what certain commentators on the sport demand of player decorum. Who really can begrudge a dude throwing his hands up in triumph after a monster blast of a home run? Cocky? Yep. Arrogant? You bet it is. Earned? Yes. We certainly don't think back at the "called shot" and say what an arrogant bastard Ruth was, do we? I think Babe would have seen a lot in common with Manny.
Personally, I've always loved Manny and felt that it was the carefree almost childlike attitude he has towards the game of baseball that certain members of the media despise that actually allowed the Red Sox to succeed. I think to a large degree its an affected attitude he has adopted in order to deal with pressure, a coping mechanism. There is no doubt he is the most prepared and studied hitter in baseball. He tirelessly works on form, coordination, pitch recognition, etc. His offseason regiments are legendary and its always evolving. Hell, this year he discovered yoga and The Secret. Does he goof up? Yes. For example the infamous unnecessary cut-off -- a classic. But, does he make the game a more enjoyable one? Certainly. See his leaping into the stands and high fiving a fan after catching the ball in Baltimore this season.
Manny is a lightening rod for criticism in a media market obsessed with eating its own, except Manny is almost impervious to it. That is his greatest strength. He just keeps hitting. Thus, he takes the pressure off the rest of the team, keeps them relaxed and allows most of the other guys to just fly under the radar. While the media is focusing on what that zanny, disrespectful future hall of famer is doing, guys like Jason Veritek, J.D. Drew, David Ortiz and Coco Crisp can quietly work their way out of slumps or overcome injuries without being under the harshest media scrutiny.
There seems to be some need in modern sports for all team players to resemble a certain characteristic: stoicism, unselfishness, restraint. Those are all valuable qualities, however you can't have a team made up entirely of those guys. There are other important team friendly roles that every team needs to succeed. Teams are made up of different personalities and its a fallacy that any one is more important to the team than the others. Teams need them all. Certainly, some characteristics and personalities are detrimental to a team -- see Bonds, Barry. However, good team players don't always look like Jason Veritek. Sometimes they look like Manny Ramirez. His relaxed, good natured approach to the game is an important and valuable contribution to the team -- even if that is just making them laugh, showing them how to identify a slider or taking the pressure off them.
Anyways, that's just my two cents.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jul 26, 2008 23:03:20 GMT -5
Manny is just doing his annual "mid season vacation"--which usually coincides with a Sox trip to West Coast. He'll be fine if they let him be--just give him a few games off--they did--and only reason Francona wanted him back sooner--the race in AL East demands it--and as Cambridge said--this is being overanalyzed.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jul 28, 2008 18:42:34 GMT -5
Manny is just doing his annual "mid season vacation" Yeah, this annual event should be put on the calendar along with "Brett Favre retirement/non-retirement talk." It's getting nearly as annoying.
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One
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Post by One on Jul 28, 2008 19:48:01 GMT -5
Is Gammons a "troll" then too?
And speaking of Bonds, Barry, he might have something to say in response to Manny being labeled the greatest hitter since Ted Williams.
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tal1286
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Post by tal1286 on Jul 28, 2008 20:20:11 GMT -5
So might Pujols, Albert.
/cubs fan shaking his head
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Jul 28, 2008 20:30:38 GMT -5
Lots of people seem to be fed up with Manny, and it is probably enough not to pick up his option, but I just don't care so long as he continues to rake. He may not be Bonds, but he is the best hitter I have ever seen on the Red Sox, and he gives this team a better chance to win than anyone they could possibly acquire at this point. He will also end up playing more games this year than anyone other than Pedroia or Youkilis, in spite of his occasional need for days off. They will be hard-pressed to replace his productivity next year, even with $20 million to spend.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jul 28, 2008 20:54:37 GMT -5
Is Gammons a "troll" then too? And speaking of Bonds, Barry, he might have something to say in response to Manny being labeled the greatest hitter since Ted Williams. Frank Thomas has a say as well. Hell, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron and Mickey Mantle.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jul 29, 2008 0:13:51 GMT -5
Is Gammons a "troll" then too? And speaking of Bonds, Barry, he might have something to say in response to Manny being labeled the greatest hitter since Ted Williams. Frank Thomas has a say as well. Hell, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron and Mickey Mantle. Frank Thomas has no business being in the discussion with the people who are mentioned above.
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Buckets
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Post by Buckets on Jul 29, 2008 10:01:07 GMT -5
I'm really unsure why this is getting coverage, and I'm a huge Manny supporter. This is the third trading deadline in four years that Manny has demanded a trade, and the fifth time in as many years that some in the media have declared it the end of Manny's tenure in Boston. No big deal, but as a sportswriter around the trading deadline, you're usually required to manufacture something.
That said, Cambridge made pretty much every point I wanted to make. I'm not sure he is the "end of story" best since Ted Williams but if you look at the guy's numbers he's certainly in the discussion. And the fact that a lot of people don't include him in there means he's underappreciated.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jul 29, 2008 11:12:14 GMT -5
Best part is watching biased Peter Gammons go off on Manny like he always does--basically calling him a selfish guy who doesn't want to win--and then when Manny leads Boston to Playoffs--Gammons will push for him as MVP, etc...if I had to see Fake Donald Southerland do this song/dance every year--I'd keep doing what Manny does-just to get a rise out Fake Donald.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jul 29, 2008 11:46:51 GMT -5
Stan Musial.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jul 29, 2008 12:55:52 GMT -5
OK, I'll bite:
I know he doesn't have the power numbers, but Tony Gwynn is certainly deserving of being on the short list. He was simply one of the hardest hitters to retire. He hit Ryan, Maddux, Johnson etc...
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jul 29, 2008 13:41:42 GMT -5
OK, I'll bite: I know he doesn't have the power numbers, but Tony Gwynn is certainly deserving of being on the short list. He was simply one of the hardest hitters to retire. He hit Ryan, Maddux, Johnson etc... No doubt--and always was amazed to see how far UP in the batters box he stood--he almost erased the front line while most guys try and "cheat" with back line.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jul 29, 2008 15:43:26 GMT -5
Frank Thomas and Albert Pujols have very similar production. Thomas isn't near the defender Albert is, but he isn't really any different than Manny.
Thomas' end legacy will be quieter because of injuries, and yes, he's somewhat of a whiner, but the crap about him walking too much says way more about the incompetent management of his teams than him. Players like Manny, Bonds and others all have the exact same approach at the plate, but only Frank's management was dumb enough to call him out on it.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jul 29, 2008 15:49:51 GMT -5
OK, I'll bite: I know he doesn't have the power numbers, but Tony Gwynn is certainly deserving of being on the short list. He was simply one of the hardest hitters to retire. He hit Ryan, Maddux, Johnson etc... No doubt--and always was amazed to see how far UP in the batters box he stood--he almost erased the front line while most guys try and "cheat" with back line. I just looked at Gwynn's stats and man, you're right--he was really hard to retire. Career OBP of .388, only one season with an OBP under .350, six seasons with an OBP over .400, and a career high of . 454. Of course, Frank Thomas had a career OBP of .420, a mark Tony Gwynn only surpassed twice in his career and he had five seasons where his OBP was .454 or better.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jul 29, 2008 18:32:00 GMT -5
I love Gwynn. Don't think he belongs in the Ted Williams echelon, because, hey, power does matter.
That said, let's not forget that a player like Manny or Frank Thomas or even Bonds, who had careers begin or primarily be constituted in 1994 on have entirely different standards than Gwynn, who started in 1983 and had a lot of injury-shortened seasons when the numbers started getting inflated for various reasons.
If Gwynn could have kept the weight off, he'd had made a run at 4,000 hits IMO. He lost a lot of games to nagging injuries, but when he retired, he could still hit.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jul 29, 2008 18:43:14 GMT -5
Manny is a combination of power and average. That's what puts him above all active batters. His consistency is absurd. The other batters suggested are intriguing, but not quite up to snuff. And I know you aren't insinuating that Manny ever juiced, SF, that is just crazy talk.
Frank Thomas? Manny has played three less season and has basically the same if not better stats.
Albert Pujols? He's on his way, but only played half as long and has health issues, so who knows if he'll achieve his potential.
Stan Musial? Different era, but a good comparison. Although, Stan has 6 years of more stats than Manny. So add about 850 hits, 150 home runs, 650 RBIs and...well, Manny starts to make some distance on Stan.
Tony Gwyn? No power. Period.
Manny Ramirez: 16 seasons 2318 hits 510 home runs 1672 RBIs 1628 Ks 1175 BBs 4377 total bases .313 career batting average .409 career on base percentage .590 career slugging percentage
Frank Thomas: 19 seasons 2448 hits 520 home runs 1701 RBIs 1373 Ks 1654 BBs 4525 total bases .302 career batting average .420 career on base percentage .558 career slugging percentage
Albert Pujols: 8 seasons 1461 hits 302 home runs 924 RBIs 487 Ks 659 BBs 2714 total bases .333 career batting average .423 career on base percentage .619 career slugging percentage
Stan Musial: 22 seasons 3630 hits 475 home runs 1951 RBIs 696 Ks 1599 BBs 6134 total bases .331 career batting average .417 career on base percentage .559 career slugging percentage
Tony Gwyn: 20 seasons 3141 hits 135 home runs 1138 RBIs 434 Ks 790 BBs 4259 total bases .338 career batting average .388 career on base percentage .459 career slugging percentage
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jul 29, 2008 19:19:28 GMT -5
Frank Thomas? Manny has played three less season and has basically the same if not better stats. I don't have the stats handy, but I would guess the Big Hurt has spent considerably more time on the DL than Manny during his career.
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