SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jul 29, 2008 19:22:36 GMT -5
I love Manny; he's in the discussion. But it isn't cut and dry. Manny has also played in some nice hitter's parks, and other players have a claim.
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FewFAC
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by FewFAC on Jul 29, 2008 21:02:15 GMT -5
The one thing that stands out to me among the stats is the walk-k ratio, and to go 22 seasons and compile a 2-1 ratio is astounding and speaks of a different type of plate discipline that makes it easy to compare Frank to some of the greats. I get that. But in reality, the argument is similar to the other awful argument I hear getting thrown around a lot, you know, the one where Griffey Jr. would have bested Bonds home run record had he been healthy.
I don't really think Manny is trying to make a play to get out of Boston to go "home" and play in NYC, but Boston would be retarded to not do whatever it took to make him stay. Without Manny, you could probably write off both WS titles and the Red Sox are still in the same discussion as the Cubs. As soon as Manny leaves, Boston will officially be rebuilding. And I'd bet every team in baseball would be in contact with his agent to cut a deal.
I really don't understand why Boston would be split on Manny, and I really don't understand "purists" who claim Manny is any less than what he is because of his character given the litany of characters throughout baseball history any more than I understood why Ripken Jr.'s consecutive games played was "good for baseball" when his numbers toward the end made a rather compelling case otherwise. If you're attuned to baseball for the human interest angle, there's always Oprah. Or Tyra. But the game is about performance, and Manny's doesn't lie.
ETA: I know Stan's BB-K ratio was 2:1 and Frank's was closer to 1:1, but I think you understand my point.
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Boz
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123 Fireballs!
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Post by Boz on Jul 30, 2008 9:34:21 GMT -5
Is there a Godwin's Law for online baseball discussions?
"As a baseball discussion grows longer, the probability of reduction to a statistical analysis approaches one."
I think this has to exist already, no?
(but if it doesn't, I call dibs: Boz's Law of Statgeekery) ;D
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jul 31, 2008 11:46:29 GMT -5
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jul 31, 2008 14:36:56 GMT -5
I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but the hot rumors are a 3 way deal involving Manny, the Pirates and the Marlins. Additionally, I think the trade deadline is today at 4pm. I could be wrong, but I think that is what I heard.
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Buckets
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Post by Buckets on Jul 31, 2008 15:26:12 GMT -5
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Jul 31, 2008 15:45:22 GMT -5
Sorry it had to end this way, but both sides managed to paint themselves into a corner, and Bay at least keeps them competitive this year, especially when you factor in improved defense and baserunning.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jul 31, 2008 15:49:42 GMT -5
Sorry it had to end this way, but both sides managed to paint themselves into a corner, and Bay at least keeps them competitive this year, especially when you factor in improved defense and baserunning. Boras gets paid this way too. Update - from ESPN.com: sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3513383
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Jack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Jack on Jul 31, 2008 15:52:48 GMT -5
There goes the greatest hitter I ever saw in a Red Sox uniform.
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Post by strummer8526 on Jul 31, 2008 15:57:27 GMT -5
I don't know a ton about Bay, so maybe this is not appropriate, but as a Yankee fan, I'm thrilled. The numbers say that Bay is a somewhat comparable replacement in certain respects. And he's certainly a fine ballplayer. But he's been in Pittsburgh playing for a team where WVU player fights are bigger news than the team. When the New York lights are shining down on the batters box, Manny has shown he can hurt us. It will be interesting to see if my happiness is justified.
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Buckets
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Post by Buckets on Jul 31, 2008 16:38:32 GMT -5
Which begs the question, which Sox player in recent memory has really struggled under these mythical New York lights, which are for some unexplained reason harder to play under than other lights?
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Jack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Jack on Jul 31, 2008 16:42:08 GMT -5
Which begs the question, which Sox player in recent memory has really struggled under these mythical New York lights, which are for some unexplained reason harder to play under than other lights? "Mystique and aura? Those are dancers at a nightclub."
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Post by strummer8526 on Jul 31, 2008 16:45:33 GMT -5
Which begs the question, which Sox player in recent memory has really struggled under these mythical New York lights, which are for some unexplained reason harder to play under than other lights? The Boston lights are the same. Are you really trying to tell me that there's no difference between playing in New York or Boston during a pennant race as opposed to 15 games below .500 in Pittsburgh? Really? There's no difference between those two situations? Or did you just not understand what I was saying?
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Aug 2, 2008 0:42:27 GMT -5
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Aug 2, 2008 12:23:51 GMT -5
I'm reminded of the old show with Art Linkletter, "Kids Say the Darndest Things."
My son, who's a big Red Sox fan for some reason that still escapes me, said yesterday morning that "this is a terrible trade for the Red Sox." He obviously was ignoring any clubhouse issues as well as Manny's hefty contract and also the fact that they probably weren't going to pick up his contract at the end of the year anyway. But still, in a very simplistic way, they had one of the best hitters of all-time and now they don't. Nothing against Bay, but apples to apples there is no comparison. Then my younger daughter, who doesn't follow baseball at all, except from going to a dozen Gator games a year or so, said that the "Pirates cleaned up, because they got all those players." Again, that ignores many factors, but in a similarly simplistic way, she makes a good point. The more good players you have -- and let's face it they are all at least "good" at this level -- the better your chances.
I didn't really think much about what they said at the time, but looking back I find it very amusing and was, as I said before, reminded that "Kids say the darndest things."
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 4, 2008 16:46:58 GMT -5
This will help the Sox more in 2009 than 2008...
I think they backed themselves into a corner.
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FewFAC
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Post by FewFAC on Aug 5, 2008 0:10:19 GMT -5
This will help the Sox more in 2009 than 2008... I think they backed themselves into a corner. I'm waiting to see the proof. Much as I understand this move from a Moneyball perspective for the Sox, it screams of curse to me.
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Jack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Jack on Aug 5, 2008 10:33:11 GMT -5
This will help the Sox more in 2009 than 2008... I think they backed themselves into a corner. I'm waiting to see the proof. Much as I understand this move from a Moneyball perspective for the Sox, it screams of curse to me. Huh? Moneyball? Curse? Neither of those now drastically overused book titles have anything to do with this move. Manny (and his agent) decided Manny could get a 4 yr/$100M deal after this year and did not want the Sox to pick up his options. The Sox did not want to give up the right to pick up those options they had already paid for. Both sides said bad things about the other, and Manny apparently went on strike for a few days. In the end, the Sox had enough and knew they needed a productive LF for both this year and next year, and made the best deal they could in a marketplace where everyone knew they were motivated sellers. Bay comes with an affordable contract for next year and gives the Sox a chance to make the playoffs and hope their pitching can carry them this year. They probably could have handled the contract situation better and they certainly could have avoided leaking all their problems to Gammons and Shaughnessy, but at least there is still reason for hope this year, and I don't know that there would have been if Manny was still around.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 5, 2008 10:44:46 GMT -5
Manny would have come around -- he always comes around. The guy wasn't going to intentionally tank in the playoffs.
The whole "giving up" thing was leaked INTENTIONALLY for PR reasons. The front office was simply tired of dealing with him and basically called him a quitter so the fans wouldn't bitch about the trade so much.
That said, I don't know if you see any difference between Bay and Manny until the playoffs.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Aug 5, 2008 12:35:11 GMT -5
Manny would have come around -- he always comes around. The guy wasn't going to intentionally tank in the playoffs. The whole "giving up" thing was leaked INTENTIONALLY for PR reasons. The front office was simply tired of dealing with him and basically called him a quitter so the fans wouldn't bitch about the trade so much. That said, I don't know if you see any difference between Bay and Manny until the playoffs. Agreed on all counts. Still, I don't really blame management for being tired of his act and ready to move on at this stage of his career, much as I am sure he will continue to rake in Chazev Ravine and probably carry the Dodgers to the playoffs.
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