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Post by williambraskyiii on Aug 14, 2008 12:22:03 GMT -5
I did as well.
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PDRHoya99
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Post by PDRHoya99 on Aug 14, 2008 12:22:54 GMT -5
You really didn't read my entire post or you willfully ignored large chunks. It's child abuse to put on 12 and 13 year olds the weight of the nation's medal hopes on the biggest stage in the world- in the Olympics Finals, not merely to have 13 year olds practicing for their day in the sun when they you know, have their period and stuff and they are too fat to gaurantee gold at a hefty 90 pounds. The regimen is basically the same. Go hang out with a crazy old Romanian man at his ranch and practice non-stop. It's deemed strange when people start the sport later than age 5 or 6. Yes there's a good bit of pressure, but given that our oldest gymnast (and an ivy league student) was the one who performed poorest down the stretch I'd say that maybe the younger kids handle it better. I don't know that our coaches said its a stupid rule- but you have to be kidding me if you don't see that even if the rule was dumb as hell the very nature of the problem is one team gets away with breaking the rule (with state help on the documents front) and the others do not. Come on, are you drunk? I ASSURE you the US coaches didn't say it's a stupid rule because it doesn't make a difference, I am sure that if they said it was stupid at all it's because they want an even playing field because their government won't fake passports for them. Agreed they want a level playing field, but then again, given that both Karolyis have been accused of abuse by former gymnasts, perhaps that's not the best idea. You missed the point on the swimming too. What I and others pointed out is that the swimmers are far less prominent these days because the Chinese didn't want to get busted. The Chinese used to be a emerging force in swimming, then it became blindlingly obvious they were all East German Men, and all of the sudden the Big Panda Bear decided swimming wasn'a a priority sport- even though its one of the prestige events of the Games. Easier to fake a passport as swimming testing is legit. Actually if you read up just a few posts you'll see this: The Chinese women's distance team has consistently been dogged by criticism that they're full of steroids (that their coach ascribed to their diet). In the past, they've been pulled wholesale out of various events where drug testing was a concern. Certainly seems like a questioning of their current swimmers to me. Overall the concerns about China seem like such a non-issue. Did they cheat at gymnastics, probably, but in the grand scheme of things I couldn't care less, because all women's gymnastics is a little sick to begin with. Have they cheated at anything else? Not that has been reported. True, they are they winning a lot of medals at sports we aren't particularly competitive in, but couldn't they say the same of us. Clearly their basketball, tennis (yeah James Blake), swimming, beach volleyball and softball teams aren't gonna give us a scare, and at least a couple of those events are equally "made up" for the united states. I see no difference between beach volleyball, which began and is predominantly played in Southern California and badminton (which was AWESOME to watch last night instead of NBC's love of synchro diving).
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PDRHoya99
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Post by PDRHoya99 on Aug 14, 2008 12:25:58 GMT -5
Some coaches also believe that younger gymnasts worry less—making them psychologically less encumbered as well. You can't have it both ways. Is it too much pressure on young girls, or do they have an psychological advantage? You've already argued for both.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 14, 2008 12:29:26 GMT -5
I was wondering when you were going to get to Blake, PDR. I can't believe more isn't being made of this.
What were the chances Blake beats Federer? 1%? .01%?
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Aug 14, 2008 12:38:44 GMT -5
LOL @ her documented age being January 1st 1992. Way to be creative on that forgery Chinese government I agree with thebin. Some people are going to say "oh this is sour grapes, we would have won if our girls had not choked", but to me that's beside the point. The rules are there for a reason, and in gymnastics those few years make a huge difference. 16 is an appropriate age because by that time girls have all gone through puberty, making the playing field even. If you're only 12 or 13 you may not have gone through puberty yet, meaning you can (somewhat) healthily weigh 70 lbs or so like some of the little girls they had out there. Also, the other issue that has been much less talked about in this thread is the "fear factor". I don't know much about gymnastics myself but a friend of mine is a pretty accomplished female gymnast, and from talking to her I know that most mistakes in gymnastics are mental--essentially, they happen when the gymnast has a moment where they fear they are going to fall or get hurt. To do some of the moves that good gymnasts do, you really have to throw caution to the wind, and if you get even a little cautious while executing, you'll fall or make a mistake. And being able to totally forget about injuring yourself is much easier for children, who do not have a fully formed sense of self and probably don't even know the potential consequences of a screwup (ie a broken neck, paralysis). Even though this advantage is not as intuitively obvious as the advantage of smaller stature, it's perhaps more significant, as gymnasts will tell you. To me, the issue isn't even so much that the team cheated and didn't deserve gold medals. Lots of athletes/teams have been busted for cheating in the past, including athletes from the US. It happens sometimes when athletes desperately want to win and is an unfortunate part of sports. So if that's what had happened here, I wouldn't really be too concerned with it. But what happened here isn't that an athlete just cheated, THE GOVERNMENT OF THE COUNTRY was complicit in this and issued false documents. THAT is something you don't see every day. Yea, Marion Jones and other US athletes have doped up in the past, but it's not like they got the juice from the US government. The fact that the Chinese government itself hooked this is so ridiculous I have to laugh at it. They throw some girls out there who look no more than 12 or 13 tops and then give them passports with the birthdate "January 1 1992". It's really as if they think we were born yesterday. The whole thing is like a big "f--- you" to the rest of the world, as if to say "yup, we're better than all you fools, we're winning the medals and there's nothing you can do about it!" And THAT is what's messed up about it.
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PDRHoya99
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Post by PDRHoya99 on Aug 14, 2008 12:45:01 GMT -5
I was wondering when you were going to get to Blake, PDR. I can't believe more isn't being made of this. What were the chances Blake beats Federer? 1%? .01%? On a hard court he probably has as decent a shot as anybody, and Roger is having a down year, as well as probably putting too much pressure on himself for a gold (Rog went out in the 2nd round in Athens). That said, it's still a great win, and nice that it sets up a decent chance for another american medal since neither of his semifinal opponents are as comfortable on a hardcourt. Additionally it makes a possible sweep of tennis golds possible since the Bryan brothers are unlikely to be challenged by anyone but the bickering Indian team of Bhupathi and Paes.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Aug 14, 2008 12:45:36 GMT -5
PDR you sure seem to be drinking the China Kool Aid. There is no arguing with someone who is vascilatting between "you can't prove they cheat" and "yeah, they cheated probably, those girls are way under age but so what?" I got no more time for you Mao.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Aug 14, 2008 12:55:54 GMT -5
she should do this to that 12 year old chinese girl...
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Aug 14, 2008 13:02:02 GMT -5
While I'm ranting, here is another analogy for this gymnast lying thing.... Let's say that during the NCAAs last year, 3/5 of Davidson's starting lineup was academically ineligible. And not only were they ineligible, they were complete morons who when asked couldn't spell simple words or do basic addition/subtraction. But right after they flunked out, the president of Davidson university put out a different transcript for Stephen Curry and 2 of his other starters that showed that all 3 men had 4.0 GPAs, and everyone at Davidson said that the players were in excellent academic standing and that it was a non-issue. Then NCAA officials said that the transcripts looked ok, and there was nothing they can do about.
Don't you think Georgetown fans would be royally Editeded off about that, and rightfully so? Wouldn't you be? Yes, you can fairly say "it's sour grapes because if we hadn't choked the game away it wouldn't be an issue", but that's besides the point. Playing with players who are ineligible is direct violation of the rules--rules which are there for a reason.
This is kind of like that (fictional) example, only it's not the president of Davidson University, it's THE GOVERNMENT of an emerging power on the international stage. How ridiculous is it that the government is that desperate to win medals? I hope western media runs with this whole story--certainly Chinese media will be prohibited from doing so. At this point I'd consider it a win if they kept the medals and were totally humiliated in the eyes of the rest of the world.
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PDRHoya99
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Post by PDRHoya99 on Aug 14, 2008 13:02:06 GMT -5
PDR you sure seem to be drinking the China Kool Aid. There is no arguing with someone who is vascilatting between "you can't prove they cheat" and "yeah, they cheated probably, those girls are way under age but so what?" I got no more time for you Mao. Although I don't recall making the point, you probably can't prove they cheat on ages, look how hard it was to catch Danny Almonte, and he was in the US. However I think the point I have been making is that all women's gymnastics is a little sick, and that their cheating seems relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. As for Chinese kool aid, I've never been to the country, and am just a white guy from Ohio living in California, so I'm hardly in the tank for the reds. It just seems foolish to me that people get worked up over women's gymnastics on this board, since it's essentially an athletic contest (aka not a sport) for middle-aged housewives. When the winner is determined by a couple of people in the stands, you are not interesting enough to get worked up about cheating in.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Aug 14, 2008 13:18:54 GMT -5
"you probably can't prove they cheat on ages"
The China state news media reported one of the current girls was thirteen earlier this year before they were officially silenced on the matter.
Another former gynmast from either Sydney or Athens is also on record as saying she was 14 at the time of the games.
Of course anyone with common sense can tell that one of the other girls on this year's team isn't even 13.
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PDRHoya99
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Post by PDRHoya99 on Aug 14, 2008 13:24:48 GMT -5
You can probably find as much evidence as you want, I doubt it would be enough to overcome the chinese govts ability to produce evidence to the contrary, so proving it will likely be impossible.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Aug 14, 2008 13:33:09 GMT -5
PDR you sure seem to be drinking the China Kool Aid. There is no arguing with someone who is vascilatting between "you can't prove they cheat" and "yeah, they cheated probably, those girls are way under age but so what?" I got no more time for you Mao. Although I don't recall making the point, you probably can't prove they cheat on ages, look how hard it was to catch Danny Almonte, and he was in the US. However I think the point I have been making is that all women's gymnastics is a little sick, and that their cheating seems relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. As for Chinese kool aid, I've never been to the country, and am just a white guy from Ohio living in California, so I'm hardly in the tank for the reds. It just seems foolish to me that people get worked up over women's gymnastics on this board, since it's essentially an athletic contest (aka not a sport) for middle-aged housewives. When the winner is determined by a couple of people in the stands, you are not interesting enough to get worked up about cheating in. The U.S., from what I heard, screwed up royally. China probably still would have won. What annoys me is the disregard for the rules, and, when they're found out, the 1984-style Ministry of Truth just rewriting the news to conform. And, when the government is complicit in rewriting the rules for one event, you assume that they have no issue rewriting the rules for others.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Aug 14, 2008 13:44:55 GMT -5
You can probably find as much evidence as you want, I doubt it would be enough to overcome the chinese govts ability to produce evidence to the contrary, so proving it will likely be impossible. What does "proving it", made impossible because of the government's complicity, have to do with condeming it? It's already been proved to anyone who doesn't want to be China's fool. But you do evidentally.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Aug 14, 2008 13:56:19 GMT -5
Disappointing stuff Sir Saxa. Their swimming team basically bowed out of intl competition in the 90s because they were busted with a massive a flagrant doping regime. Their gymnasts being 11 or 12 or 13 and not the mandated minimum 16 is no small deal, it's a MASSIVE and illegal advantage to have pre-pubescent girls that weigh nothing. It's also child abuse to force (and that is the size of it) 12 year olds into that kind of pressure. The gymnasts are selected and then removed from the home at the age of 3. They then get to see their parents ONCE A YEAR. There is very little choice involved, but if you want to believe there is, I'm sure they will encourage you to think so. This was all presented on NBC, who has not exactly been highly critical ithus far n fear of offending the golden goose IOC. Diving is impressive for the established events. But half of the events are JOKES. Synch diving was invented out of whole cloth essentially so the Chinese could rack up more medals. What other sports do they target? Sports with very little broad based appeal- the low hanging fruit where they give out 30 medals. Women's weightlifting. Would bet my right arm those little women are all juiced to the hilt. Shooting...in a country where you have no right to own a gun ever. Ping Pong- a game and not a sport but happens to be a passion in China and exactly nowhere else. But baseball (loved in a dozen countries) and softball? THey have to go. US Olympic money is NOTHING in comparison to an autocratic government making gold medals a national priority of the highest order. THat analogy is feeble. Bin.. sorry you found my post disappointing. But, I already acknowledged the Chinese female gymnast ages are phony. The US Olympic committee and the IOC should be the targets of your ire for not pursuing the age issue -- and, maybe as you mentioned, NBC -- although they keep talking about it. I asked if there was other info on cheating. Doping in the '90s? How many US Track & Field Athletes doped in the '90s and since? Marion Jones wasn't alone. Besides, I was asking about current accusations. So the Chinese targeted lesser known sports? So what? They made an effort to put their focus where they had the best chance to win. And it's working. How is that cheating? Baseball and softball are still in. I think it's unfair to eliminate softball, but the Chinese didn't do that and it doesn't take effect until next time. The US has a long standing tradition and support mechanism for developing successful Olympic athletes. We have some enormous advantages. The Chinese spent a lot of money to catch up. They've done well. Good for them. None of that stops me from admiring the many remarkable athletes from all over the world. Actually, I am more surprised at myself for getting into the NBA All Star Olympic team. I wasn't expecting to care. But watching Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Lebron, Chris Paul, and even KOBE today... wow. Now I want to see these guys more.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Aug 14, 2008 14:24:15 GMT -5
Sir Saxa-
I didn't say targeting the lesser sports is cheating. I think it's lame, but not illegal. But it still speaks to how impressed you or I should be with regard to Chinese success atop the medals table, does it not? They didn't target these sports because they love them, they correctly ascertained that they were not the most competitive sports so they could engineer medalists in them. Not exactly the Olympic ideal is it? You seem impressed and are willing to grant them all manner of benefit of the doubt for their medals success. I am not.
I categorically dismiss the notion that ire should be directed at the US team and IOC. It should be directed forcefully of course at the offending organizations rather than the victims or dupes thereof. This is a strange blame America/IOC first reaction. Why are the Chinese not responsible for their actions? Why are you so eager to let this despicable regime off the hook for colluding to cheat the rest of the world's 16-20 year old women out of a fair gymnastics competition? What is it that makes it so easy for you to pretend that the Chinese government is the benign force that they want you to believe in spite of mountains of evidence to the contrary? You would (correctly) never give so much benefit of the doubt to American govt groups. Can you really see no fundamental difference between individual athletes doping )and getting caught!) and state collusion that we know will not be caught because the state has produced fake but unimpeachable exonerating documents?
We can agree to one thing. I've become surprisingly taken with these NBA stars wearing the red white and blue. And man those whites are sharp.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Aug 14, 2008 14:57:57 GMT -5
Disappointing stuff Sir Saxa. Their swimming team basically bowed out of intl competition in the 90s because they were busted with a massive a flagrant doping regime. Their gymnasts being 11 or 12 or 13 and not the mandated minimum 16 is no small deal, it's a MASSIVE and illegal advantage to have pre-pubescent girls that weigh nothing. It's also child abuse to force (and that is the size of it) 12 year olds into that kind of pressure. The gymnasts are selected and then removed from the home at the age of 3. They then get to see their parents ONCE A YEAR. There is very little choice involved, but if you want to believe there is, I'm sure they will encourage you to think so. This was all presented on NBC, who has not exactly been highly critical ithus far n fear of offending the golden goose IOC. Diving is impressive for the established events. But half of the events are JOKES. Synch diving was invented out of whole cloth essentially so the Chinese could rack up more medals. What other sports do they target? Sports with very little broad based appeal- the low hanging fruit where they give out 30 medals. Women's weightlifting. Would bet my right arm those little women are all juiced to the hilt. Shooting...in a country where you have no right to own a gun ever. Ping Pong- a game and not a sport but happens to be a passion in China and exactly nowhere else. But baseball (loved in a dozen countries) and softball? THey have to go. US Olympic money is NOTHING in comparison to an autocratic government making gold medals a national priority of the highest order. THat analogy is feeble. Bin.. sorry you found my post disappointing. But, I already acknowledged the Chinese female gymnast ages are phony. The US Olympic committee and the IOC should be the targets of your ire for not pursuing the age issue -- and, maybe as you mentioned, NBC -- although they keep talking about it. I asked if there was other info on cheating. Doping in the '90s? How many US Track & Field Athletes doped in the '90s and since? Marion Jones wasn't alone. Besides, I was asking about current accusations. So the Chinese targeted lesser known sports? So what? They made an effort to put their focus where they had the best chance to win. And it's working. How is that cheating? Baseball and softball are still in. I think it's unfair to eliminate softball, but the Chinese didn't do that and it doesn't take effect until next time. The US has a long standing tradition and support mechanism for developing successful Olympic athletes. We have some enormous advantages. The Chinese spent a lot of money to catch up. They've done well. Good for them. None of that stops me from admiring the many remarkable athletes from all over the world. Actually, I am more surprised at myself for getting into the NBA All Star Olympic team. I wasn't expecting to care. But watching Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Lebron, Chris Paul, and even KOBE today... wow. Now I want to see these guys more. As mentioned already, the IOC is the one that should be pursuing this. The USOC shouldn't have to complain that someone's cheating - the NCAA doesn't start working when Alabama complains about Auburn. The doping is a fair point, and the US, especially track stars, turned a few Olympics into a farce. My best point - they weren't encouraged by the federation to do so. I think that makes a world of difference. I have no issues with the Chinese targeting lesser-known sports - Singapore is a country whose Olympic strategy is just to win a medal, and has allocated resources appropriately. China wants to win the medal count, and made a conscious decision. Good for them. But their government altered passports. They cheated. Blatantly. The adding of new sports and the deletion of old really doesn't seem to be against the US. The Winter Games are one case where all the new sports seemed designed for the US. Baseball's problem has usually been that major leaguers don't play, which annoyed the Olympics.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Aug 14, 2008 15:05:21 GMT -5
Sir Saxa- I didn't say targeting the lesser sports is cheating. I think it's lame, but not illegal. But it still speaks to how impressed you or I should be with regard to Chinese success atop the medals table, does it not? They didn't target these sports because they love them, they correctly ascertained that they were not the most competitive sports so they could engineer medalists in them. Not exactly the Olympic ideal is it? You seem impressed and are willing to grant them all manner of benefit of the doubt for their medals success. I am not. I categorically dismiss the notion that ire should be directed at the US team and IOC. It should be directed forcefully of course at the offending organizations rather than the victims or dupes thereof. This is a strange blame America/IOC first reaction. Why are the Chinese not responsible for their actions? Why are you so eager to let this despicable regime off the hook for colluding to cheat the rest of the world's 16-20 year old women out of a fair gymnastics competition? What is it that makes it so easy for you to pretend that the Chinese government is the benign force that they want you to believe in spite of mountains of evidence to the contrary? You would (correctly) never give so much benefit of the doubt to American govt groups. Can you really see no fundamental difference between individual athletes doping )and getting caught!) and state collusion that we know will not be caught because the state has produced fake but unimpeachable exonerating documents? We can agree to one thing. I've become surprisingly taken with these NBA stars wearing the red white and blue. And man those whites are sharp. Bin, I think you are misinterpreting some of my comments (or I didn't make them clear and precise enough) and you are suggesting I hold opinions that I never stated. I did not intend to suggest anyone (not even I) should let the Chinese govt. off the hook on the age issue. I mentioned the IOC and the US Olympic Committee as organizations that should be aggressively demanding compliance. They don't seem to be doing that. Therefore, they share the responsibility. That doesn't make China innocent. As for the "lame" nature of the events... that's what I don't care about. When I see the medal counts, it really isn't a big deal to me. And if they won in "lesser" sports, so what. It was a smart strategy, pursued effectively. "Why are you so eager to let this despicable regime off the hook for colluding to cheat"That's taking my comments far beyond what I actually wrote. Did the Chinese govt. collude in the doping of the '90s? Probably. Did MLB know their players were doping? Did the Tour de France organizers know bike riders were doping? Did the US Olympic Committee know, suspect, doping? Is there a history of the USOC making favorable rulings to allow certain suspected athletes to continue participating? Does shutting your eyes to something you know is happening make you more innocent than actively colluding? Maybe. But that isn't a clear, B&W distinction. Does granting citizenship on an accelerated basis to athletes from other countries make you an Olympic cheater? rule bender? less than 100% pure? All of this has to do with the excessive focus on National Olympic performance instead of on individual athletes -- the true Olympic ideal to which you referred. Bu still, the swimming team doping you cited took place in the '90s. It was wrong. They got caught. Is it still happening? That was my question, not an attempt to allow anyone off the hook. Back to our area of agreement. I never thought I would find myself getting so taken with the NBA all star team. Maybe losing in '04 and '06 was the best thing to happen. These guys really seem to care. Given more time together as a team, I don't think there's any question they would win. But the team play advantage that other nations have (Arg. Sp, Ger, et al) offsets some of the athletic advantage our guys have. If the US team puts team first throughout the games, they'll win and look great doing it. That play today in the 2nd Qtr when Wade poked the ball away as Greece approached halfcourt, then ran it down at full speed, grabbing it with two hands just before he went out of bounds and firing a pinpoint pass to Kobe on the run for the dunk?!?!!? That was great!
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DrumsGoBang
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Post by DrumsGoBang on Aug 14, 2008 15:26:49 GMT -5
Why isn't there a blood test for age like there is for everything else. I am a superhero since my parents were exposed to radioactivity on their secret mission to Mars, so my blood has a measureable half-life isotopes, but what about normal people?
I think the US should call "Shenanigans" on China and demand a gold.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Aug 14, 2008 15:31:37 GMT -5
Why isn't there a blood test for age like there is for everything else. I am a superhero since my parents were exposed to radioactivity on their secret mission to Mars, so my blood has a measureable half-life isotopes, but what about normal people? I think the US should call "Shenanigans" on China and demand a gold. Well I'm sure you could carbon date people and get to within a a few hundred years of their birthdate if that would help.
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