SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Aug 14, 2008 8:55:34 GMT -5
Agree! 3 medals for hoops, 8 for crew, and two for equestrian -- 1 for the rider, 1 for the horse!
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Aug 14, 2008 9:06:14 GMT -5
Yeah, China has the gold medal count locked up. As mentioned, they targeted this a long time ago. Costas was even talking about it - program with a name like Program 151 or something, which was aimed at sports where more than one medal could be won. The 151 (or whatever the number was), was the number of these types of medals that are available and being targeted.
I used to care more about the medal count, but it has gotten so out of hand that it is just about meaningless. Tough to respect a system like China's, which seems to be a throwback to the old East German and Soviet machines. They are training robots, not athletes, in many cases.
That's why I love US and Australian swimming -- these athletes are awesome and they just seem to love what they are doing.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Aug 14, 2008 9:13:16 GMT -5
I don't agree with the negative China remarks. OK, the gymnasts weren't 16. But they were awesome.
Other than that, have the Chinese been accused of anything illegal? Doping? whatever?
Their divers are awesome, swimmers coming on, men gymnasts are great... Hey, they have over a billion people... gotta be some good athletes there.
The US has spent enormous money on sports for decades, including college schollies, NIKE $, US Olympic Cmte, etc. Watching China develop their sports program at light speed is pretty damn impressive.
BTW, also impressive today? USA Basketball. I did not expect to like this team. But Dwayne Wade was awesome today, and so were Bosh, Lebron and even Kobe.
Kidd had 3 fouls in the first minute or two. Chris Paul was terrific.
IF they keep playing like they did today, gold is in the bank!
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Aug 14, 2008 9:28:46 GMT -5
I don't agree with the negative China remarks. OK, the gymnasts weren't 16. But they were awesome. Other than that, have the Chinese been accused of anything illegal? Doping? whatever? Their divers are awesome, swimmers coming on, men gymnasts are great... Hey, they have over a billion people... gotta be some good athletes there. The US has spent enormous money on sports for decades, including college schollies, NIKE $, US Olympic Cmte, etc. Watching China develop their sports program at light speed is pretty damn impressive. BTW, also impressive today? USA Basketball. I did not expect to like this team. But Dwayne Wade was awesome today, and so were Bosh, Lebron and even Kobe. Kidd had 3 fouls in the first minute or two. Chris Paul was terrific. IF they keep playing like they did today, gold is in the bank! The gymnasts were awesome because they were smaller. To quote "Bring It On", "In cheerleading we throw people into the air. And fat people don't go as high. ". So China busted one rule they didn't like. The Chinese women's distance team has consistently been dogged by criticism that they're full of steroids (that their coach ascribed to their diet). In the past, they've been pulled wholesale out of various events where drug testing was a concern. China's also famous for pulling kids out of homes and training them a la the East Germans for the glory of the motherland. At least here, you have to have some whacky stage mom making the decision.
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Post by strummer8526 on Aug 14, 2008 9:49:52 GMT -5
Yeah I care about the medal count too. If this Olympics was intended by the Chinese government to present them in a favorable light to the rest of the world, it has failed in my book. I don't trust a thing they do. They fake their singers. They cheat in AT LEAST one sport (women's gymnastics). They digitally manipulate their fireworks. FIREWORKS! Simply ridiculous.
Thank god for Michael Phelps, though. He's carrying our medal count. He seems bit more like a real frat guy than someone I would hang out with, but he's shown some excellent character and humility. And he's the most dominant athlete I've ever seen in any sport. I enjoyed when he got presented his gold medal for the relay, and THEN went down to the second place platform and shook the French team's hands. Yes, he shook their hands...but he also made sure he had that gold on his neck first.
Back to the Chinese, I get torn. These athletes have been essentially forced by their government to bust their asses their entire lives for this. So it's impossible to hold anything against the Chinese athletes. They're remarkable and gifted. But the way China has created the machine, it's impossible to be happy for them as a nation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2008 9:55:32 GMT -5
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Post by williambraskyiii on Aug 14, 2008 9:55:51 GMT -5
dude if you take a look at the Chinese women swimmers, a lot of them appear to be East German redux...not natural. You look at natalie coughlin who is ripped and in great shape, but still looks like a woman. I mean come on, it is silly. And don't get me started on the pre-teen gymnasts...those girls are so young and stunted they look like goblins that I check under my bed for before I go to sleep at night. If Deng Lin Lin jumped out of my closet in the middle of the night, I would have a heart attack.
Chris Bosh is really growing on me...he is a great player, but also seems to be among the most gregarious and press-savvy on the team. He cracks me up.
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Aug 14, 2008 10:43:21 GMT -5
dude if you take a look at the Chinese women swimmers, a lot of them appear to be East German redux...not natural. You look at natalie coughlin who is ripped and in great shape, but still looks like a woman. I mean come on, it is silly. And don't get me started on the pre-teen gymnasts...those girls are so young and stunted they look like goblins that I check under my bed for before I go to sleep at night. If Deng Lin Lin jumped out of my closet in the middle of the night, I would have a heart attack. Chris Bosh is really growing on me...he is a great player, but also seems to be among the most gregarious and press-savvy on the team. He cracks me up. Didn't the Chinese swimmers get kicked out of either the Barcelona or Atlanta games for using male/transgender athletes?
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Aug 14, 2008 11:06:26 GMT -5
I don't agree with the negative China remarks. OK, the gymnasts weren't 16. But they were awesome. Other than that, have the Chinese been accused of anything illegal? Doping? whatever? Their divers are awesome, swimmers coming on, men gymnasts are great... Hey, they have over a billion people... gotta be some good athletes there. The US has spent enormous money on sports for decades, including college schollies, NIKE $, US Olympic Cmte, etc. Watching China develop their sports program at light speed is pretty damn impressive. BTW, also impressive today? USA Basketball. I did not expect to like this team. But Dwayne Wade was awesome today, and so were Bosh, Lebron and even Kobe. Kidd had 3 fouls in the first minute or two. Chris Paul was terrific. IF they keep playing like they did today, gold is in the bank! Disappointing stuff Sir Saxa. Their swimming team basically bowed out of intl competition in the 90s because they were busted with a massive a flagrant doping regime. Their gymnasts being 11 or 12 or 13 and not the mandated minimum 16 is no small deal, it's a MASSIVE and illegal advantage to have pre-pubescent girls that weigh nothing. It's also child abuse to force (and that is the size of it) 12 year olds into that kind of pressure. The gymnasts are selected and then removed from the home at the age of 3. They then get to see their parents ONCE A YEAR. There is very little choice involved, but if you want to believe there is, I'm sure they will encourage you to think so. This was all presented on NBC, who has not exactly been highly critical ithus far n fear of offending the golden goose IOC. Diving is impressive for the established events. But half of the events are JOKES. Synch diving was invented out of whole cloth essentially so the Chinese could rack up more medals. What other sports do they target? Sports with very little broad based appeal- the low hanging fruit where they give out 30 medals. Women's weightlifting. Would bet my right arm those little women are all juiced to the hilt. Shooting...in a country where you have no right to own a gun ever. Ping Pong- a game and not a sport but happens to be a passion in China and exactly nowhere else. But baseball (loved in a dozen countries) and softball? THey have to go. US Olympic money is NOTHING in comparison to an autocratic government making gold medals a national priority of the highest order. THat analogy is feeble.
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PDRHoya99
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Post by PDRHoya99 on Aug 14, 2008 11:35:17 GMT -5
Their gymnasts being 11 or 12 or 13 and not the mandated minimum 16 is no small deal, it's a MASSIVE and illegal advantage to have pre-pubescent girls that weigh nothing. It's also child abuse to force (and that is the size of it) 12 year olds into that kind of pressure. The gymnasts are selected and then removed from the home at the age of 3. They then get to see their parents ONCE A YEAR. There is very little choice involved, but if you want to believe there is, I'm sure they will encourage you to think so. This was all presented on NBC, who has not exactly been highly critical ithus far n fear of offending the golden goose IOC. Come on, isn't all womens gymnastics child abuse. Do you realize when the 16 year olds on our team started? I doubt they were really old enough to decide for themselves if they wanted to be constantly training either. Yes, their gymnasts were likely too young, but our coaching staff pretty much admits that it's a stupid rule to begin with and they'd like to see it done away with. I'll start considering their medals tainted as soon as I see a lineup of US 13 year olds that would have gone instead of the group we sent. As for their swimmers, I haven't exactly seen them cleaning up in the medal count. The currently have 1 gold, 3 silvers and a bronze compared to our 7 golds, 5 silvers and 8 bronze. If they're doping there then they'd best start doing a better job of it.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 14, 2008 11:41:53 GMT -5
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 14, 2008 11:48:22 GMT -5
There's simply no way a market based system will keep up with a government run system in medal count, all other things being equal.
In our system, our athletes aggregate at popular sports, whether for monetary reasons or just social dynamics. In London, the three sports where the majority of American male athletes go will have 1 gold medal.
In a nationalized system, China can move around it's athletes to maximize the medal count. Even if they didn't target sports with many medals and where there was no competition, they'd still win more by moving their excess athletes in their most popular sports (like basketball) to other areas. Have enough forwards on the basketball team? Time to learn volleyball.
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Post by strummer8526 on Aug 14, 2008 11:50:19 GMT -5
That is a completely backwards way to look at it. I'll start considering their medal LEGITIMATE when I see a lineup of Chinese 16 year olds that would have gone instead of the babies they sent out there the other night.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Aug 14, 2008 11:55:20 GMT -5
Their gymnasts being 11 or 12 or 13 and not the mandated minimum 16 is no small deal, it's a MASSIVE and illegal advantage to have pre-pubescent girls that weigh nothing. It's also child abuse to force (and that is the size of it) 12 year olds into that kind of pressure. The gymnasts are selected and then removed from the home at the age of 3. They then get to see their parents ONCE A YEAR. There is very little choice involved, but if you want to believe there is, I'm sure they will encourage you to think so. This was all presented on NBC, who has not exactly been highly critical ithus far n fear of offending the golden goose IOC. Come on, isn't all womens gymnastics child abuse. Do you realize when the 16 year olds on our team started? I doubt they were really old enough to decide for themselves if they wanted to be constantly training either. Yes, their gymnasts were likely too young, but our coaching staff pretty much admits that it's a stupid rule to begin with and they'd like to see it done away with. I'll start considering their medals tainted as soon as I see a lineup of US 13 year olds that would have gone instead of the group we sent. As for their swimmers, I haven't exactly seen them cleaning up in the medal count. The currently have 1 gold, 3 silvers and a bronze compared to our 7 golds, 5 silvers and 8 bronze. If they're doping there then they'd best start doing a better job of it. You really didn't read my entire post or you willfully ignored large chunks. It's child abuse to put on 12 and 13 year olds the weight of the nation's medal hopes on the biggest stage in the world- in the Olympics Finals, not merely to have 13 year olds practicing for their day in the sun when they you know, have their period and stuff and they are too fat to gaurantee gold at a hefty 90 pounds. I don't know that our coaches said its a stupid rule- but you have to be kidding me if you don't see that even if the rule was dumb as hell the very nature of the problem is one team gets away with breaking the rule (with state help on the documents front) and the others do not. Come on, are you drunk? I ASSURE you the US coaches didn't say it's a stupid rule because it doesn't make a difference, I am sure that if they said it was stupid at all it's because they want an even playing field because their government won't fake passports for them. You missed the point on the swimming too. What I and others pointed out is that the swimmers are far less prominent these days because the Chinese didn't want to get busted. The Chinese used to be a emerging force in swimming, then it became blindlingly obvious they were all East German Men, and all of the sudden the Big Panda Bear decided swimming wasn'a a priority sport- even though its one of the prestige events of the Games. Easier to fake a passport as swimming testing is legit.
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PDRHoya99
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Post by PDRHoya99 on Aug 14, 2008 11:57:17 GMT -5
Their gymnasts being 11 or 12 or 13 and not the mandated minimum 16 is no small deal, it's a MASSIVE and illegal advantage to have pre-pubescent girls that weigh nothing. It's not like we're putting up a bunch of heifers into these events. Shawn Johnson is 4'9" and just under 84lbs! We lost the gold because Alicia Sacramone the bed in two events down the stretch.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Aug 14, 2008 11:59:33 GMT -5
Their gymnasts being 11 or 12 or 13 and not the mandated minimum 16 is no small deal, it's a MASSIVE and illegal advantage to have pre-pubescent girls that weigh nothing. It's not like we're putting up a bunch of heifers into these events. Shawn Johnson is 4'9" and just under 84lbs! We lost the gold because Alicia Sacramone Edited the bed in two events down the stretch. You don't have a clue what kind of advantages are conferred by being 12 instead of 16, but alas gynastics experts do...hence the rule- made because a regime like China would have their children (kidnapped from the home at age 3) ready to sweep all the golds if they didn't make the rule.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Aug 14, 2008 12:02:00 GMT -5
Why do younger gymnasts have an advantage? They're lighter. The best gymnasts must be short and muscular with low body fat, which gives them a high strength-to-weight ratio and a greater ability to lift themselves into the air. Girls reach their ideal ratio before puberty; after that point, between ages 14 and 18, they gain weight and have difficulty keeping up their strength. Some coaches also believe that younger gymnasts worry less—making them psychologically less encumbered as well. www.slate.com/default.aspx?id=3944&qt=explainer+china+gymnasts
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Aug 14, 2008 12:05:14 GMT -5
Their gymnasts being 11 or 12 or 13 and not the mandated minimum 16 is no small deal, it's a MASSIVE and illegal advantage to have pre-pubescent girls that weigh nothing. It's not like we're putting up a bunch of heifers into these events. Shawn Johnson is 4'9" and just under 84lbs! We lost the gold because Alicia Sacramone Edited the bed in two events down the stretch. Did you notice that Alicia Sacramone has a sizable chest? It oddly contrasted with the Chinese stick who was still losing baby teeth.
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Post by strummer8526 on Aug 14, 2008 12:18:16 GMT -5
Did you notice that Alicia Sacramone has a sizable chest? Yes. Yes I did.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Aug 14, 2008 12:20:26 GMT -5
It's not like we're putting up a bunch of heifers into these events. Shawn Johnson is 4'9" and just under 84lbs! We lost the gold because Alicia Sacramone Edited the bed in two events down the stretch. Did you notice that Alicia Sacramone has a sizable chest? It oddly contrasted with the Chinese stick who was still losing baby teeth. I must admit that I notice the overall attractiveness of Ms. Sacramone. My wife won't allow me to say more.
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