RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Sept 14, 2008 10:44:41 GMT -5
I actually do think the Davidson game has an effect on recruiting--not so much because we lost the game, but because of the way we lost. Make no mistake about it, the main "knock" on Georgetown is our system. Everybody out there who has an interest in seeing these high school players go somewhere other than Georgetown is pointing to our system and saying "Do you really want to play in that?" They tell kids that Georgetown stifles their athleticism, doesn't let them get out into the open court and run. Slows the game down, doesn't let anybody display their natural ability, doesn't let any player put up a lot of points. Things like that.
And the Davidson game in a lot of ways showcased some of the weak points in our offense. Davidson had nobody who could handle Roy in the post, yet he was out above the 3 point line trying to run the offense. Davidson had nowhere near the caliber of athletes that we have, but we lost because we didn't exploit our superior athletes, instead trying to stick to the slow it down, grind it out style offense.
I'm not saying that I totally agree with these criticisms or that there is no refuting them. But the criticisms of our offense are out there, and there are kids who are buying it. People on these boards are too logical sometimes. The kids we're trying to sway here are mostly starting their junior year of high school, ie 16 year olds, and they've got tons of people in their ears. When they see a game like Davidson and see us against a team that we should be dominating athletically, but instead we're struggling in our slowdown offense, they think "that's stupid, why don't they run on these guys?" or "why don't they just get the ball to hibbert down low?" and things like that. It plays right into all the negative things that people are telling them about Georgetown. Reminds me of politics to some extent--while we can sit around here and come up with very logical rebuttals to these types of criticisms, most people just believe the talking points and take things at face value.
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blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Sept 14, 2008 11:00:26 GMT -5
thx for the intervention danmcq. I'm actually quite entertained when someone gets on hoyatalk in the middle of the night and starts lobbing insults at other posters. you learn a lot about people.
as for rbh's post... what he said! too many losses like the davidson loss will impact recruiting....period.
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Post by arlingtonhoya05 on Sept 14, 2008 11:17:50 GMT -5
Hairston and Thornton commit to duke, they both strongly considered the hoyas...not good. Hairston is fantastic
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Sept 14, 2008 11:30:30 GMT -5
as for rbh's post... what he said! too many losses like the davidson loss will impact recruiting....period. Well, sure. But at this point, how many losses do we have like the Davidson loss? I can't really think of too many. Yes, there are games we lost that we should have won, but I don't think Davidson constitutes a "trend" that opposing coaches can really point to with any amount of credibility. They're going to point out the things RBH said about the Georgetown system, but they'd be pointing those things out whether we won or lost that one game. Put it another way. Duke lost in the second round last year, in the first round the year before that. I think their recruiting survived it.
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Sept 14, 2008 11:54:15 GMT -5
I don't think the Davidson game will affect things too much. As Boz said, Duke also lost in the first round.
As far as our system goes, I think the system is a plus for players who fit into it well. The sorts of kids who are turned off by our system are more likely to be the kinds of kids who wouldn't be good fits. If a kid wants to play in a run and gun offense, he will be turned off by the way we play, but he also probably wouldn't be the best player for us if he came. On the flip side, a player who's perfect for us is likely to find our system to be a big plus. I think Greg Monroe fits into that latter category.
All that said, I don't think the system drove off these two guys. In the end you win some and you lose some. It would be great if every recruit we wanted came to Georgetown, but that will never happen. Let's be excited about the guys who are coming to Georgetown.
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AvantGuardHoya
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Post by AvantGuardHoya on Sept 14, 2008 12:00:24 GMT -5
I find the dismissal of Davidson sorely lacking in insight. Just because they don't play in a major conference and don't have the highly recruited athletes, didn't mean they didn't have a good team and couldn't play w/us. They did.
A number of CBB analysts picked them to beat us, not because they thought our offensive system sucked, but because they thought the Davidson team was legitimate and had a shot.
Yes, I'd loved to have beaten them, but it seems that people forget they won 23 straight before besting us, then proceeded to defeat Wisconsin and then were edged by the eventual national champion. They were a good team. Stop making like they were the little sisters of the poor.
Most of the year we managed to squeeze out wins. We generally did not dominate teams and were pretty well handled by a few squads. IMHO, that we fell to Davidson should not be viewed as an embarrassment.
Regarding the impact of the loss on recruiting, I side w/RDF. If it's that big a factor, I wonder why such talent as Hollis Thompson and DaShonte Riley cast their lot w/the Hoyas. Seems to me we'll get good players regardless.
I also recall when GU didn't have quite the profile it now enjoys. We blew a 14 point halftime lead to Iowa and missed out on a chance to go to the Final Four. On the heels of that loss we somehow managed sign Patrick Ewing and you know the rest.
Wake up and smell the roses, guys. We may not get every top kid we want, but we appear to be well situated to bring in quality recruits.
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Sept 14, 2008 12:45:30 GMT -5
I'd agree that specific games have an impact, but if Davidson was "the game" that opposing coaches are using to dis us, then why did these guys pick Duke who had a terrible tournament and plenty of bad loses over the years?
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blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Sept 14, 2008 13:42:01 GMT -5
just to be clear...I don't think hairston and thorton selected duke because of the davidson loss. my guess is that they would have gone with duke either way. that said, eventhough davidson was a very good team, losses like the davidson loss...where the hoyas had a total melt down... can't be good for for recruiting. to say it has absolutely NO IMPACT is silly.
hollis, who is a perfect fit for our system, actually committed shortly after we were in the FF....not after the davidson loss. in the end, the more success we have with the system...the more players will likely want to be part of the system. the more we struggle with it and the more davidson like melt downs we have...the more challenging for recruiting.
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vagrant
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Post by vagrant on Sept 14, 2008 15:07:58 GMT -5
The difference between an early Duke loss and an early GU loss is that Duke does not have to prove their system. We are in the process of proving ours. As RB says our loss to Davidson can be used as fodder against our system. I don't think many will say that Duke can not win the big ones.
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chep3
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Post by chep3 on Sept 14, 2008 16:28:24 GMT -5
So now that two of the kids we had very high on our list are out, who are we now prioritizing? And what are our chances at these kids?
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DanMcQ
Moderator
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Post by DanMcQ on Sept 14, 2008 19:25:08 GMT -5
So now that two of the kids we had very high on our list are out, who are we now prioritizing? And what are our chances at these kids? There is a pretty good summary three pages back: hoyatalk2.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=16927All the more reason to look at the first 2-3 pages of this forum since threads cycle off pretty rapidly (and by extension, why the moderators lock and/or move some redundant threads or threads that would be better placed in other forums here).
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Sept 14, 2008 19:42:12 GMT -5
The level of panic and stupidity on this board regarding recruiting has reached an all time high this weekend. Where were some of you "Fans" when this program was a laughing stock? Just wondering. I've been a Hoya fan through thick and thin--and losing 2 good players to Duke isn't going to "hurt" the program. If 1 loss mattered--why doesn't III point out how Duke got PUNKED by WVU on a neutral site--while the Hoyas dismantled that same team in the BET on a neutral site? Do you see how you can keep playing this game?
The talk of the "system" is a joke. I'd rather lose 2 recruits, and have a Final Four appearance, 2 BE titles, 1 BET Title in back to back BET Finals Appearances--and send 3 kids to NBA--including a guy who went in 2nd Round (PE JR) that was less regarded then anyone at Duke--and yet was drafted higher then anyone from their program. Hibbert and Green are millionaires--and due to the SYSTEM which forced them to develop their game while at Georgetown.
The National Champions needed a defensive stop to beat Davidson in the Regional Final--yet Georgetown needs to re-evaluate everything they do-because Josh Hairston and Tyler Thornton chose Duke. UNREAL how some thinking is. Are they great talents? No doubt--but a PROGRAM is built on more then 1 game, more then 1 recruit, more then measuring yourself and questioning everything just because fans were disappointed at losing an NCAA game.
Some of you people don't watch with clear eyes--you let your heart influence what you see. Want to know why Georgetown didn't run? Because the beloved guard that this board defended all year--couldn't protect the basketball enough and wasn't effective in that type of game. Great coaches do what their teams are capable of--and if people really looked at Georgetown's team last year--it was a year they overachieved in many ways and overcame poor play from some key players for over half of the Big East season. You can't run if you can't keep the ball--you can't run if you have a limited bench, and you would hear just as much criticism of Georgetown if they ran and ignored Hibbert--when at times they were a better team--see Davidson game. So which is it--they didn't use Roy right or they should've sat him? They didn't do what exactly that would've made some of you guys happy?
Give me the results of the "system" and give me the players Georgetown has signed and has committed. Hollis Thompson can flourish in ANY system--he's not a "system" player--he's a kid who is going to be a great player at Georgetown. Yet some of you guys want Ryan Kelly--who has no game--he's not athletic, he's not strong, he's a hard worker who can't defend anyone-and you could typecast as a "system" guy--as in John Wall systematically makes him look 10 times better then he is--he moved from borderline top 125 player to top 10 by some--and his game is made up of.....garbage baskets, dunks, and some goofy post moves that work against mediocre players. If you choose to WATCH HIM PLAY instead of going off others opinions-maybe you would see it. Then again-maybe none of you could ever see it.
Tell you what happened around here--sentimentality took precdent over the ability to evaluate talent and a team. Half this site goes ape when you make a critical analysis of certain players--yet they don't have the ability to figure out how that player is best utilized. If you learn what it takes to win--which is to find which style of play gives your team best chance--you do it. That is sign of a GREAT COACH--not good--GREAT--and fact III won Big East with a team who gave away possessions at an alarming rate,--was without their most gifted guard for entire regular season in conference play--and lost when Hibbert was in foul trouble and against a team who went to Elite 8 and played a better game against National Champs then the "mighty" University of North Carolina did--btw the same team who Georgetown dropped 96 pts on the year before--with a top 5 pick--who wasn't there a year later. But why ask for perspective--when you can focus on bull****?
Again--Hairston is a great talent--but he's not going to decide the fate of CBB. There is a Greg Monroe on the current team. I'd take him over Hairston. There will be more kids who WANT To come--believe it or not--some people actually like how Georgetown plays and it attracts them-but why would anyone want to win games, develop their game to point they go in the First Round when you can listen to outside influences and negativity about Georgetown?
Just disgusted with the negativity over losing 2 big time players. It's going to happen again in future, but so will landing top players--it's more important to get people who WANT to come and believe in the program--then kids who don't--but guess that is too hard to understand. Hell--let's lose games and watch bad guard play--throwing ball out of bounds, bad shots, no ability to create offense, no ability to get offense off defense, and no winning-but man do we run and "let guys play". You want to see Georgetown run--simple--see if they protect ball/make good decisions and can rebound/get stops. Do that--and they'll run all game long. Did that happen last year?
Well--can't wait for next group to visit--because half this site will whine the minute they see who "else is on him" and resign the fact that Georgetown has no shot. You know--Hoyas and their "system" can't compete against big boys. Nobody will get drafted in that system--they don't get awards or numbers. Nobody can win against big time teams playing that. Players and TALENT influence how you play--and doesn't matter how much talent you have--if guys cant' execute--or don't want to play together.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Sept 14, 2008 20:11:06 GMT -5
I don't know RDF, I think you are tilting at windmills here. The reaction around here seems pretty subdued, and the issue that is being "discussed" is whether the Davidson loss has an impact on recruiting. Although some posters may say it is "silly" to say it has no impact, you and I obviously disagree.
As far as the other points about the system - I think RB was making a valid point that our competition and possibly some recruits may be bashing the system. I am sure there is some validity there, but I agree with the counter that they are bashing the system whether we win or lose the Davidson game, so I still don't think a single loss like the one to Davidson has an impact on recruiting.
For whatever reason, it seems like Hairston cooled on the Hoyas. Who know, it may be as simple as he wanted to be closer to his extended family so they can catch the games. It doesn't matter since, as RDF pointed out, the Hoyas are fine and will be fine. Now that the Hoyas are established, the success of the program is not dependent on locking up a specific recruit or two. Let's see how JTIII does with the rest of the talent 2010 class...
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Sept 14, 2008 20:11:16 GMT -5
thx for the intervention danmcq. I'm actually quite entertained when someone gets on hoyatalk in the middle of the night and starts lobbing insults at other posters. you learn a lot about people. as for rbh's post... what he said! too many losses like the davidson loss will impact recruiting....period. So which is it--"too many losses like...." or "loss to Davidson"? If you are entertained--then why did you act like you were MANstrating when something wasn't directed at you personally--it was directed at anyone who thinks recruiting is effected by one game. If that is NOT you--not speaking to you. Make up your mind--dont' whine like a female dog if you think something is "entertaining" or act like you find it entertaining--I could care less. My comments weren't directed at anyone in general--it was directed at those who are a certain viewpoint on recruiting and have no idea how things work in college recruiting. You keep winning championships in Big East and making NCAA tournament--you'll get good players. I'd rather be losing to Davidson in 2nd Round as a 2 seed then watching at home and wondering if Esherick is going to have Georgetown in Patriot League, after not qualifying for the BET Tournament, but that is my own opinion. Some want Ryan Kelly--yet they haven't seen him play. They love his ranking-but he might not be as good as the 90th kid who is in '10 class-but it would make the recruiting "ranking" look good. If you get guys who believe in what you do and want to be at Georgetown--you'll win a lot of games and compete for championships. You get guys who listen to what other influences say--be it other programs, AAU clowns/pimps, peers, etc....then you don't want them anyway. NCAA play isn't easy--you get one shot--you play on "neutral" sites--(Raleigh game was a ROAD game imo) and if you lose--you can get labeled as a failure. Last time I checked--the program was coming off a Final Four in the Head Coach's 3rd season which is not something that happens everywhere. Ask Florida-their LEAST regarded group of recruits came in and won back to back National Titles while the more hyped players sucked and helped UF get reputation as a program that "couldn't win come March". It's about knocking on the door enough that you eventually kick it down--but last time I checked-you don't get to the NCAA's by losing games--which is what stupid coaches do and stupid programs do when playing "uptempo"--even though they are outmanned and the style of play isn't condusive for them to win.
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Just Cos
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Eat 'em up Hoyas
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Post by Just Cos on Sept 14, 2008 20:14:47 GMT -5
RDF, I know ranting is your style, but this time you're definitely overreacting. Watch that blood pressure buddy.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Sept 14, 2008 20:36:27 GMT -5
So now that hairston is our of the picture we should put the full court press on Roscoe smith SF in the 10 class. The main competition is UNC?
Now that thorton is gone do we target starks or atkins? anyone have an opinion?
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blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Sept 14, 2008 22:29:19 GMT -5
Geez RDF... What happened to dropping the subject because there was "no need to continue to discuss anything further"? I think everyone is ready to move on.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Sept 14, 2008 22:48:11 GMT -5
So now that hairston is our of the picture we should put the full court press on Roscoe smith SF in the 10 class. The main competition is UNC? Now that thorton is gone do we target starks or atkins? anyone have an opinion? Smith IMO is even better than Hairston, IMO the top guy we're on in 2010 (not sure about Josh Smith or Barnes). He and his family have kept details of his recruitment very quiet, but he's got a ridiculous list of offers, just about every top program in America has offered him, literally. UNC fans would have you believe he grew up a UNC fan and that they lead, but he hasnt said that in any of his rivals interviews so thats just hearsay for now. If we land him, Hairston will be totally forgotten, but I'm not getting my hopes up at least until he gives a final 5 and we're in it or gives some kind of hint that we are a leader. And as for filling the 4 spot that Hairston would have filled, I still think Ryan Kelly MIGHT be an option in 2009. Not sure where his head is at but to me he makes perfect sense for us. Strong face up game, good student, hard worker, likely 4 year guy. Yes he is very under weight right now for the Big East 4 spot, but a lot of high school big guys are too thin. We'd be lucky because we can stash him behind Sims/Vaughn for 2 years and let him gradually adjust to the physicality of the Big East and also add some size in the weight room, and then have him take a starting role by his junior year. I know his game has been discussed here ad nauseum and the loudest voices seem to suggest that he's "an ACC player, not a Big East player" but I totally disagree and would be really happy if we landed him this fall. And I know a lot of other people who know what he brings to the table feel the same way. As for guards I think there are lots of options that will get explored in 2010, and not just the guys from the area. But I've heard lots of good things about Starks, he seems like a good fit for our system and was at (I think, or at least invited to) Midnight Madness last year, so I think he's probably pretty high on the priority list.
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FewFAC
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Post by FewFAC on Sept 15, 2008 1:55:19 GMT -5
This is just gonna make beating Duke on the court all the more sweeter.
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balla
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Post by balla on Sept 15, 2008 2:29:14 GMT -5
Now this is some funny stuff to read, one of the boards resident stealth trolls(dhall) floats the davidson game and people go flying. Here is the deal with hairston and thornton, it is about a crack dealer turned aau guru(pimp). That is the bottom line. Like I said in the other thread, congrats to Keith Stephens for taking over Nike's local AAU program. Because the script is about to get flipped. rdf/B&G, since you are 2 of my fav posters... just hug it out. We all have our faults. B&G gets a little over the top when there is bad recruiting news, and I have to ignore rdf for a few days after a Gtown loss(yikes). Then again the board would be boring without the occasional family feud. Hey MCI, Weeds is about to jump the Shark so we will have to find another show to argue about. I'm thinking House, great show. But I can't watch it on a full stomach ;D
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