EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Jun 14, 2008 7:41:18 GMT -5
Guess I was wrong. I didn't think anyone could out-rant the master.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jun 14, 2008 11:31:55 GMT -5
MCI, it's cool that you hate on Kobe Bryant but some of your references to losing to Phoenix are odd--if Michael Jordan had Smush Parker and Kwame Brown as key starters in Western Conference--he'd have lost too. The better TEAM wins in the NBA. 7 game series means the better team wins. Phoenix was seeded higher then Lakers and should've been. The Suns went on to lose in WCF the year Lakers "blew" that lead-although Bryant was personally responsible for that lead with one of the great playoff performances in Los Angeles and only thing he deserves harsh criticism for in that series is his behavior/performance when Game 7 turned into a blowout. He quit on his team--and no matter how frustrated--you cannot ever do that. Suns that beat a bad Lakers team last season---lost to eventual NBA Champs in a series that they had chance to win.
The other major point I will completely disagree with you is on Shaquille O'Neal. You talk as if O'Neal would've gotten his fat ass in shape for the Lakers. Why would he? He didn't in '02--but was still far superior in terms of conditioning then '03 and '04 when he'd sit out half the season, show up completely out of shape and didn't show a commitment to the team, but wanted things to run through him. Kobe Bryant is selfish, arrogant, etc... but he is 100% committed to the game of basketball--Shaquille O'Neal is when he wants to be and then again--he might rather film a video with Ray-J. What you saw in Miami was O'Neal's pride hurt--with Lakers--would he have gotten into shape and shown commitment? He didn't for 3 straight seasons--and their team was getting worse but he didn't want to adjust his game for Kobe--as Kareem willingly did for Magic/team. Kareem NEVER was out of shape--and he was 100 times the player O'Neal is when it comes to skill/basketball IQ. Shaq could've been the best ever-but he got to point he'd rather use his physical strength/size and not develop his game--and once the athleticism left--he started to fade. The '04 Lakers were beaten in part to his poor conditioning as Detroit ran them out of gym. The Heat with Shaq lost until Riley figured out to use Mourning when it was critical time in 4th quarter and you could see Shaq's decline in those Finals--he was awful in that series with Wade, Mourning, Gary Payton and James Posey outplaying him. Haslem too.
Last season--Shaq and Heat got swept out by Bulls--the Lakers as an 8th seed in Western conference at least won a game against the Suns--the 1 seed. The Suns with Shaq got beaten down by a team Kobe led Lakers took out. How in the hell would Shaq help the Lakers now more then Odom/Gasol--and you know I don't think highly of their toughness.
I can understand the personal comments about Bryant--although I disagree about Jordan's help--having 2 Hall of Fame level players--Rodman for his rebounding/post defense which was always underrated due to his antics, and Pippen. Toni Kukoc was better SF then anyone Lakers have now. Ron Harper was washed up with Lakers more then with Bulls. Bill Cartwright was always a solid offensive player and had a nice back to basket game. Krause surrounded superior slashing/driving players with shooters--be it Paxon, Kerr, Armstrong, Hodges, who all were excellent in that role. Longley, Wennington, Purdue were there for fouls but all 3 of those guys look like Shaq compared to the lack of physical play you get from Gasol and Odom. I've left out Horace Grant--who is superior to any PF the Lakers have now.
If you were to judge players based on the same point in career--I'd take LeBron James over Jordan and Kobe for his understanding of HOW to play/make others better and he can do more in terms of his size/passing--which Jordan didn't develop until later in his career. James has chance to go down as a superior player then both Bryant and Jordan--if he keeps developing--particularly his jumpshot--but he's already elevated a subpar team to the Finals at an age Jordan wasn't sniffing anything other then playoff exits. Bryant was as responsible as anyone for the Lakers winning the NBA Finals in '00. His performance in Game 4 won that series and was praised by Bird and anyone who watched. He took over the game and dominated play, on the road, without Shaq, and against the most formidable of teams they faced in Finals--Larry Bird coached Pacers--who took Jordan's team to 7 games in '98 ECF without losing a home game to them. So it's not as if he's always been 2nd banana in Playoffs--his play against Kings in Game 7 of '02 WCF won that series. The guy has proven he's 1A--not a #2 sidekick. Leading Lakers to Finals without their 2nd best player is also not too bad. Now--is he stupid when it comes to recognizing the importance of Bynum? Undoubtedly. Is he too self centered/arrogant? Probably--but he's going to be in NBA Finals a lot more and have more rings in the next 5-6 years then Shaq will have Playoff wins--so the decision was simple--go with future and sacrifice a year/2 for 8-10 more of competitive runs to win titles.
I also disagree the past year's Knicks would beat Boston's team now--those Knick teams back then with old rules--sure--but with today's rules--they'd be in penalty within 2 minutes of each quarter and they'd get destroyed at the 2 spots that always gave them fits-SF and SG. Pierce and Allen would do to Knicks what they've done to everyone else. Oakley is one of the more overrated players ever--Bulls dump him and go on to win 6 titles without him and yet he is guy others point to as Ewing's "help". Played hard, great teammate, but limited player. Anthony Mason and John Starks were CBA refugees. Charles Smith--very Gasol/Odom like in terms of toughness. Harper, Rivers, Blackman were over the hill. James Posey is better then every SF Knicks had except for Xavier McDaniel--and I'd take Posey for his shooting from 3. Ewing would be doubled/tripled and games would be decided by the cast I named above--when one team has 3 HOF players--and other has 1--you go with the team with 3 HOF.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Jun 14, 2008 11:35:31 GMT -5
Scottie Pippen who proved, when playing without Jordan, that he would have NEVER been chosen as an all-time Top 50 without being MJ's sidekick and winning six titles as a result.
The Knicks were probably my favorite pro sports team growing up. I blame the Bulls for ruining my childhood. Nonetheless, I have to get Pippen's back on this one.
In 93-94, his first year without MJ, Scottie Pippen was the 3rd best player in the league after Hakeem and David Robinson. He was easily the best player in the Eastern Conference, and the Bulls won 55 games with him as their go to guy (they won 57 with MJ the year before). These same Bulls lost Game 5 of the Eastern Conference SemiFinals on an egregious call on Pippen by Hue Hollins, sending Hubert Davis to the FT line. They won Game 6 in Chicago, which featured Pippen absolutely posterizing Patrick Ewing on a dunk, but eventually fell in 7 games.
Pippen was a beast offensively, and was probably the best defensive player of the era. Perhaps he reached that level of greatness because of MJs influence, but to say he proved he was a rubbish player when playing without MJ does not ring true to me.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jun 14, 2008 11:44:16 GMT -5
Scottie Pippen also appeared in a Conference Final without Jordan--which Michael never did without Pippen. I'm not saying Pippen is better then Jordan--but he was a high level player and proved it on his own merit. That Portland team he was on lost to Lakers in WCF in meltdown fashion--but they did fight back from 3-1 to force a Game 7 and then Bryant and O'Neal took over. Jordan without Pippen might not have won a title. He didn't get to a Finals without Pippen-which is something guys like Bryant and James have already done without their "HOF partner" or without anything worth 2 cents in James case. Can never be proven that Jordan would/wouldn't have--but it is factual that Jordan never did a thing without Pippen while Bryant/James have-and yet we always hear they are not as good. You can't measure something that cannot be proven. I'd take LeBron at same stage of his career over Jordan or Bryant--and it'll be up to him if 10 years from now we have this discussion. At this stage--he's a better player in every aspect and a more dominant physical player. He's Len Bias like in terms of his body--and I thought Bias was at least Jordan's equal, if not potentially better-but we were robbed of that due to his self destruction.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jun 14, 2008 12:46:55 GMT -5
MCI, it's cool that you hate on Kobe Bryant . Gotta stop right there. I can't get into these back and forths even though I have a lot more stuff in my arsenal about Kobe. This argumnet will go on forever because you aren't going to concede or give me the last word anyway and a s aresult it could turn into a Editeding contest between us. So let me sum it up like this. I do respect your opinion and, yes, I don't like Kobe Bryant. But I have tremendous respect for his game. Hey, I didn't like Christian Laettner but I feel he is a top 20 all-time college great. I hated Jordan much worse. I've actually rooted for Kobe and the Lakers in a few series; I NEVER rooted for MJ and the Bulls. But if I can give Jordan all the respect I did in my previous post doesn't that mean I am capable of at least seeing how exceptional a player he is? And if I am capable of seeing that in the hated Jordan why would I be incapable of seeing that in Kobe? The fact is I am all too aware of Kobe's greatness. I just don't put him at the level that others do. If I had not been banned from Maryland Scout a year ago I would be ripping up people in a recent thread over there who think its an insult to suggest Jabbar may have been the greatest player of all time. That opinion could be wrong but how is that a ridiculous argument? Jabbar was one of the top five most dominant players ever in the three major levels of basketball: high school, college and pros. Jordan can only make the claim for the pro level. Jabbar therefore may be better and certainly faced better teams when he was in the NBA. So by pointing this out I'm letting everyone know that I don't drink the Jordan Kool-aid. Just the opposite in fact. Nonetheless I have enough objectivity to still think Jordan is way above Bryant. Its not hating or disrespect or bashing. Its just an opinion I have based on all I've seen, read and heard over the years. To me its an insult when guys put Kobe in the top five of all-time NOW and don't even give mention to Bill Russell. Only in hoops do we disregard any player that was playing more than a generation ago. I won't. Russell won 11 championships, and was league MVP five times. He is also arguably the best defensive player ever. But talk radio nation and internet experts don't think he is worthy of inclusion but Kobe, who has never been the best player on a team that has won anything major, is already being put on that pedestal by these same folks? That's a disgrace IMO. I have more respect for the legacy and history of the game than those people. In five years get back to me about Kobe's ultimate place amongst the greats. Right now he is not in my top fifteen. Just saying.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jun 14, 2008 13:47:56 GMT -5
I don't care whether you like Bryant or not--but I do find the Shaq and Phoenix arguments to be pretty absurd. I agree with you on Jabbar and I'm not one who considers Jordan to be the best player of all time--as you know--so there is a lot more we agree on then disagree--although I just find that Phoenix and Lakers better with Shaq now to be way out there.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jun 14, 2008 14:08:45 GMT -5
. I have more respect for the legacy and history of the game than those people. In five years get back to me about Kobe's ultimate place amongst the greats. Right now he is not in my top fifteen. Just saying. Agreed. So many people dismiss the players of the past as somehow incapable of today's game when, in some cases, they were clearly superior. Of the top 40 NBA players all time, how many would be from this decade? That's not the say this year's Lakers and Celtics aren't great in their own right, but they clearly trail the shadows of their respective teams' past.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jun 14, 2008 14:52:39 GMT -5
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moe09
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Post by moe09 on Jun 15, 2008 12:01:05 GMT -5
As much as I enjoy discussing the merits of Jabbar being the best basketball player of all time, perhaps we could move this thread back to the NBA Finals? Being out of the country it's hard to get good news on the Finals, and I hate seeing an update on here and end up having to read about the Celtics dance team...
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jun 15, 2008 13:34:34 GMT -5
As much as I enjoy discussing the merits of Jabbar being the best basketball player of all time, perhaps we could move this thread back to the NBA Finals? Being out of the country it's hard to get good news on the Finals, and I hate seeing an update on here and end up having to read about the Celtics dance team... You're not that clever, moe. First of all most of the thread has been about the NBA Finals. Second of all my conversation regarding Kobe, Jabbar and Jordan is over. Unlike you folks clowing off in the Yates thread no one had to respectfully clue me in that I had lost track of what the thread was about in the first place. Oh, and another thing. My off-topic still had to do with basketball, NBA history and one of the participants of these NBA Finals. Your little laughter over there about Krispy Kreme and skiing has nothing to do with Yates. Better luck next time though.
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moe09
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Post by moe09 on Jun 15, 2008 14:51:13 GMT -5
Just had to bust your balls a little bit.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jun 15, 2008 15:05:48 GMT -5
LeBron better in every aspect? When did he start playing defense?
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jun 15, 2008 23:46:59 GMT -5
That's KG just doing what KG does come $ time. What a FEMALE DOG with game on line and this nonsense about him "wanting it too much"--I guess Nick Anderson wanted it too much back in his NBA Finals appearance.
I will say--watching Lakers somehow win a Kenny Mauer officiated game is absolutely astounding. He and Bavetta--the levels of corruptness have no ends in NBA. ;D
Gasol/Garnett in paint battles is like watching a less physical WNBA game-I think--because I wouldn't know what a WNBA game looks like--but I assume they have girls that tickle fight more then these two do. Flopping is at a high premium between the European Gasol and the Planet No Balls Garnett--but it's at least good comedy.
So while those of us who know his game have to laugh at:
1. KG changed the "culture" of Boston 2. He's so intense he needs to sleep--he doesn't sleep enough... 3. He cares so much.....
This guy is a Black Tyler Hansbrough in the media eyes. Garnett is a great player who is one of the all time gutless wonders in the 4th quarter. He likely will get his ring and in Boston the focus will be upon the 3 things listed above--but anyone who builds a franchise around this guy would suffer early exit fate. Let's put it this way--if Lakers are within 2 pts under 2 minutes in Game 6--I'd double off everyone and force KG to shoot/foul him. We'd be looking at Game 7. If Gasol would've helped when Allen whipped Vujuacic the other night--the ball would've gone to KG on the wing and that game would've still been up for grabs. There is nobody on the planet hoping/assuming Game 6 will be a blowout more then KG--and for the value of entertainment--let it come down to a possession--and let's see if we get a Game 7. ;D Maybe he and Gasol and Odom can have a pillow fight in the paint to see who wins?
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jun 16, 2008 1:48:00 GMT -5
LeBron better in every aspect? When did he start playing defense? At the same age--Jordan didn't play any defense either--nor did he get the rebounds James could/impact a game rebounding. The thing that seperates LeBron at the same age as Jordan/Kobe--his ability to elevate his team/teammates--who are beyond mediocre--that is an awful crew he has played alongside. He wasn't the ball handler or passer James was at that time in his career either.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jun 16, 2008 2:23:56 GMT -5
LeBron better in every aspect? When did he start playing defense? At the same age--Jordan didn't play any defense either--nor did he get the rebounds James could/impact a game rebounding. The thing that seperates LeBron at the same age as Jordan/Kobe--his ability to elevate his team/teammates--who are beyond mediocre--that is an awful crew he has played alongside. He wasn't the ball handler or passer James was at that time in his career either. I concur with much of this. It amazes me that guys on Sports Talk Radio Nation can dismiss James as being overrated. Those folks obviously hate the NBA and everyone who currently plays in it....except for the Black Tyler Hansbrough. Talk about a choke at the line.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Jun 16, 2008 6:11:50 GMT -5
nice of bryant to trot out his wife and kids during every timeout to give them a kiss to show the fans how great a dad he is on fathers day. another reason to hate that edited. he's the biggest phony in sports.
how many times is this idiot going to throw out the 'if someone told us all we had to do is win x number of games' crap line. watching this edited, along with fellow editedsfarmar and vujacic act like 3 year old girls on the court makes me feel like i'm watching a wnba game. i can't wait for boston to end this series so these crybaby bunch of editeds can go away for the summer.
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moe09
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Post by moe09 on Jun 16, 2008 8:18:14 GMT -5
Pillow fight in the paint, RDF? Whoa, whoa, whoa, I don't want anybody getting injured...
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jun 16, 2008 10:28:44 GMT -5
LeBron better in every aspect? When did he start playing defense? At the same age--Jordan didn't play any defense either--nor did he get the rebounds James could/impact a game rebounding. The thing that seperates LeBron at the same age as Jordan/Kobe--his ability to elevate his team/teammates--who are beyond mediocre--that is an awful crew he has played alongside. He wasn't the ball handler or passer James was at that time in his career either. Really? LeBron was 23 this year. At 24, Jordan won Defensive Player of the Year. Also, I think the fact that Jordan never faced zone defenses is more than outweighed by the different hand-checking rules now. Kobe going against the "tough" D of Boston this series is nothing like going against the Bad Boys and others early in Jordan's career. Finally, we agree Garnett. Does this guy have any moves? He gets his baskets because he's a freak of an athlete for a 7-footer and is simply able to go around guys or get his shot off over other big men. Definitely not someone I want with the ball down the stretch.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jun 16, 2008 10:58:03 GMT -5
KG has moves--his reverse pivot, switch pivot feet 3 times fadeaway is the staple. Or the "holy crap--it's a big time in game who passed me the EXPLETIVE BALL" hot potato move where anyone could receive the ball from him--be it PJ Brown, Tony Allen, Tony Stark, Doc Rivers, Dr. Seuss, Mark Wahlberg, Ray Allen, Bill Simmons--we can go on and on--but his moves late in a game are endless.
If you are going to get on Kobe Bryant for his kids--which is annoying--you have to mention the obnoxious Eddie House kid who started this nonsense.
Vujacic would've been docked some money if NBA had the flopping rule in effect last night--that jump ball "dive" he took was sickening. I'd also add Paul Pierce flop when Walton slipped near midcourt and the KG and Gasol "battles". KG diving after he got a rebound off balance and Gasol always checking his face and acts like he's been stabbed after a play/whining.
Also--it was nice of NBA to bring in Ken Mauer --who has now done 2 Finals games and will be on call if needed for a Game 7 for Celts. Lakers should try and get Devean George back for the Minnesota connection. That would help. Bavetta who looks like the bad guy from Poltergeist II--the old, creepy, preacher.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jun 16, 2008 11:13:18 GMT -5
KG has moves--his reverse pivot, switch pivot feet 3 times fadeaway is the staple. Or the "holy crap--it's a big time in game who passed me the EXPLETIVE BALL" hot potato move where anyone could receive the ball from him--be it PJ Brown, Tony Allen, Tony Stark, Doc Rivers, Dr. Seuss, Mark Wahlberg, Ray Allen, Bill Simmons--we can go on and on--but his moves late in a game are endless. If you are going to get on Kobe Bryant for his kids--which is annoying--you have to mention the obnoxious Eddie House kid who started this nonsense. Vujacic would've been docked some money if NBA had the flopping rule in effect last night--that jump ball "dive" he took was sickening. I'd also add Paul Pierce flop when Walton slipped near midcourt and the KG and Gasol "battles". KG diving after he got a rebound off balance and Gasol always checking his face and acts like he's been stabbed after a play/whining. Also--it was nice of NBA to bring in Ken Mauer --who has now done 2 Finals games and will be on call if needed for a Game 7 for Celts. Lakers should try and get Devean George back for the Minnesota connection. That would help. Bavetta who looks like the bad guy from Poltergeist II--the old, creepy, preacher. Nature versus nurture? Genetic versus environment. What's the deal with Euros and South American's flopping? Is there a special soccer gene that makes them do it (and then whine incessantly about it afterwards?). If I went into one of the clubs in DC where all the Europeans hung out and carried a basketball with me and bumped into someone, would it be like one of those domino setups where the first person flops and so on and so on until they're all on the ground?
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