fatthew
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Post by fatthew on Mar 23, 2008 23:14:48 GMT -5
One missed call that really, really Editeded me off though. Down two with about six minutes to play, Wright put up a three and Curry very clearly slapped him on the wrist on the release. No call. It would have been Curry's fifth. The shot misses, of course, and Curry nails a three on the other end. G'town down five and never gets back in it. That one really Editeded me off too. The shot was clearly altered and even the heads of the Stephen Curry fan club(the commetators) pointed it out That was a case of all the media attention working against us. If the refs make that call, and we go on to win, the storyline is "refs bail out Hoyas again." The refs don't want their judgment questioned in the national media. Regardless of whether or not it was the correct call, no way they call that foul. Beyond that I'm not going to comment on the officiating for this game, partly because I didn't see most of the second half (thanks, CBS). But, generally, the officiating has been awful this season, all over the country. I wonder about the average age of the refs in the NCAA. 3 guys in their 40s-50s chasing around 10 18-22 year old kids? I think, in alot of cases, the game just moves too fast for these guys. I realize that this may only be part of the problem. Unfortunately, whatever the problem with the refs is, the NCAA seems to have little to no interest in remedying it.
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lurkerhoya
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Post by lurkerhoya on Mar 24, 2008 2:08:38 GMT -5
1. I had similar thoughts as HappyHoya.
Roy does the right thing and comes back. In arguably the biggest game of his career (as it pertains to his NBA prospects, every "last" game is his biggest game), the games he came back to play instead of being a top-15 pick (?), the refs "let" him play 15 minutes. It's no wonder guys go one and done.
You essentially play for a $6 billion behemoth that could really care less about you. And today that showed. If I told Greg Monroe if he comes back for a second year, he'll play in a game that may cost him several million dollars because some official has an axe to grind, what do you think he'll do?
As to the other implications, who knows. What I do know is that it is highly suspicious if you ask me. A ref can try and influence a game by calling fouls, but ultimately someone still has to make free throws. You can foul a player out of the game, but the other team still needs to make plays. What we saw today was systematically removing the ball from our hands. The only to win a basketball game is to outscore the other team. The only way a ref can directly impact that and the outcome of the game is to make calls that actually keep one team from scoring. Anything else really leaves it to chance still. At least 9 times, the refs actually took the ball from us without a shot and gave it to Davidson. Something reeks....
2. Yeah, we blew a 17 point lead. Would we have blown a 24 point lead? How about 27?
I think people want to focus on one play or a series of things that we did wrong. We didn't get Roy the ball, we took bad threes, etc. The officiating in this game systematically changed the game. I think back to the 'Nova game which was marked by one bad call going our way. I remember sitting in Verizon watching that game and the officiating was horrible all around. Both teams were absolutely jobbed and what you saw was simply the last crappy call in a series of bad calls go our way.
What we saw tonight, in my opinion, was quite the opposite. It was a series of calls all against us. And they changed the course of the game, little by little, even while we were ahead. (Remeber the SI article this week about Dean Smith's compliment about not changing tactics? Kind of hard to do that with what happened today) Up 17, down 2, it doesn't really matter, we had a damn effective gameplan and some players who could run it to precision. I don't know exactly how you're supposed to adjust and keep from doing all of the things that you know will win you a game simply because the refs have decided that the other team is too inferior for you to keep doing them.
How do you set a weakside screen when half of the time you do it you get whistled for a foul 20 feet from the play? How do you post up when the guy hanging from you like a jungle gym is not only allowed to do it, but rewarded for it? When it comes down to crunchtime and you need a run-stopping basket, how do you go to your bread and butter when the risk is not only a turnover that you can't afford, but losing your All-American center? Similarly, how do you get J-Wall open off of one of those nice high screens for a 3 ball when it's clear that if he gets too open, you'll hear a whistle and suddenly go from a game-changing 3 to giving them 2 game-changing free throws?
THAT is the cumulative effect of those calls. There is no one moment, no one play to point at and say what a horrible call. Frankly, if that was the case, I'd say we should win in those situations since one call does not decide a game. 12-15 total, and 9 of a certain kind designed to dismantle any semblance of what this team does best, yeah, I will point a finger at that and say shame on the officiating.
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
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Post by lichoya68 on Mar 24, 2008 2:15:14 GMT -5
SEE THE LINK ON THE POST GAME ARTICLES TO THE BOSWELL ARTICLE I THINK ITS PRETTY FAIR ADN BALANCED GO HOYAS IS IT NOVEMBER YET
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 24, 2008 3:51:48 GMT -5
CBS switched in the Northeast, so I didn't see most of the second half, but from what I saw of it an from what I saw in the first half, those officials were terrible. Forget the calls on Roy for a second - I have never seen a more blatant miss than Macklin's wide open dunk inside. He goes up for the dunk and the defender has his hand on his ball hand while he is dunking - the defender's hand is *nowhere* near the ball.
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Mar 24, 2008 8:10:58 GMT -5
I also missed most of the second half, and you can bet I was Editeded at the horrendous officiating in that half, regardless of us being up ten.
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 24, 2008 9:42:02 GMT -5
The only other game I've been so worked up about the officiating was the 1994 Big East Final against Providence. And I think these guys were worse than Ted Valentine's crew.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 24, 2008 10:02:30 GMT -5
I was yelling at the refs in the first half when we were up by double digits, so does that mean I'm allowed to criticize them for sucking something major in the second half too?
Yes, we had a lot of TOs. Yes, we missed a lot of FTs. Both had an impact on the game. However, I don't see how anyone can deny: (1) the way the refs called the game had a huge negative impact against GU; (2) there were several horrible calls/no-calls that went against Georgetown; and (3) the refs were horribly inconsistent in how they called the game.
That first foul on Roy was total BS. I understand what Pakcer was saying was the reason for the call, but in the replay I saw no contact by Roy on the shooter's elbow. Yet when Curry did the same thing to Wright in the second half, no call on what would have been Curry's fifth. You think that would have a difference having Curry out the last few minutes of the game? Maybe just a little? Same thing with that crap call on Rivers closing out on Curry on what turned out to be a four point play.
And for the 153rd time, if it's not a foul for Roy to fight for position against a 7-footer, it shouldn't be a foul just because the guy guarding him has his head in Roy's armpit. I can hear it now - "Roy should have adjusted to the way the refs called the game, blah blah blah." Really? How's he supposed to do that? The only way he could have adjusted would have been to stop fighting for position, which would have lead to even more criticism that Roy does a bad job of getting position down low.
One last one, which TC points out - where Ticket dunks the ball and the reply clearly shows him getting hit on the wrist. If it had been the other way around, I'm sure GU would have been called for the foul.
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Post by jimbones on Mar 24, 2008 10:37:56 GMT -5
I don't care if it sounds like sour grapes. The ref's decided the outcome of this game. The 4th foul on Roy was a joke and then CBS doesn't have the guts to show the replay. I agree with most of the posters that the calls have to go both ways if your going to call touch fouls. Jon Wallace got busted in the mouth towards the end of the game and that didn't get called. Just so frustrated Hibbard couldn't get more floor time during the past several games.
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Post by Coast2CoastHoya on Mar 24, 2008 10:41:07 GMT -5
Some thoughts.
1. From the Verizon Center (where I watched all 6 games this wkd through binoculars from the 400s) it looked like the refs were pulling for upsets as much as the fans. This was glaringly true in the Duke-Belmont game. It seemed like the better-seeded teams were getting graded on a different curve than the worse-seeded teams.
2. In both Gtown games I felt like the officiating was one-sided, but as a blindly loyal fan, didn't want to make any judgments based on that, because it's usually untrue and unneccessary to even think about. Yesterday, thinking like I was in point 1 above (objective, just wanting to see good basketball) I couldn't help but think that the refs were adding another hurdle for a better-seeded team to overcome (in addition to a hostile crowd and an adrenaline-fueled-and-upset-minded opponent).
3. I watched almost every single game CBS broadcast over the past four days, sometimes more than one at a time (had the local feed and the HD feed going at points throughout the first two rounds). I just can't get over the feeling that the refs, collectively (but not in a conspiracy-theory kind of way) were being tougher in the better-seeded teams all weekend. Skinny short guys should have the same treatment from the officials as big tall strong guys. I just didn't see games called that way.
4. 8-17. We go 13-17 we win. Free throw shooting was an achilles heel for us all year and bit us hard in the ass yesterday.
5. 24-30. They go 19-30 and we win. The bigger point is that they got to the line 30 times in a 40 minute game despite shooting 28 threes and 38% from the field overall.
So I hope the "commenting on officiating is for losers" crowd doens't think I'm just being a homer. I thought that better-seeds got a raw deal all weekend long.
All that said, none of this changes the outcome of the game. Next season starts today.
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Mar 24, 2008 10:41:46 GMT -5
Did anyone see what happened on Freeman's two off the ball offensive fouls? I'm not sure he had any all year, then 2 today while trying to post up. No replays, so I never got a great look.
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Post by happyhoya1979 on Mar 24, 2008 11:00:12 GMT -5
WIth the swirl of controversy that is rapidly engulfing what is now being called in many circles the "Great Davidson Fix of 2008", the NCAA needs to act immediately and remove the Davidson-Georgetown officiating team of O'Neill, Jannsen and Simmons from any further 2008 tournamnent games. The integrity of the Sport is on the line.
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Oh My!
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Post by Oh My! on Mar 24, 2008 11:55:42 GMT -5
WIth the swirl of controversy that is rapidly engulfing what is now being called in many circles the "Great Davidson Fix of 2008", the NCAA needs to act immediately and remove the Davidson-Georgetown officiating team of O'Neill, Jannsen and Simmons from any further 2008 tournamnent games. The integrity of the Sport is on the line. I'll throw my 2 cents in here behind some editing of the above post. The last names of the 2nd & 3rd officials are: Janssen & Sirmons, respectively. Maybe it would have been interesting to see Bill Simmons ref yesterday's game. Saying nothing about the job they did, I would like to let everyone know that Janssen & Sirmons are Big East officials. I do not believe that O'Neill is, but I am positive that Janssen did our Pitt game on 1/14 and our Cincinnati game on 2/23 and Sirmons did our Jacksonville game in December. Even though it was a noon-conference game, it was a Big East assignment. So, to say anything about our lack of familiarity with the officials is pretty much a stretch. Some of the more appropriate comments are the ones that mention that the physical play that is let go in the Big East is often considered a "Must" call in the NCAA Tournament. Everyone makes a big issue out of how the officials are trying to advance in the tournament, just like the teams. I, for one, am curious to see which, if any, of these 3 guys receives assignment(s) for next weekend.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Mar 24, 2008 12:53:59 GMT -5
Hoyas missed FT's that could've won game, they had a 17 pt lead, and 20 turnovers to 4 for Davidson--that is what kills you more then anything in any game.
My thing with officials for CinderFELLA teams--they don't want them to win-but they make sure they stay in "contact". For instance--everyone and their brother could see Vernon Macklin was fouled on his dunk in 1st Half-he got slapped across both arms-and nothing is called. Fine--that is how game is going to be called. Well Richards drives and hurls himself into defender on other end--and whistle is blown for FT's. Why? You can figure it out. If that was a Davidson kid who made the dunk--and was hit--you think they would've played on? Of course not.
The biggest change in sports is officiating. Instead of games being officiated-you see guys having to "adjust to officials"--which is true--but shouldn't be. A foul is a foul-no matter if a team is better/less talented, etc.. a game shouldn't be "kept in contact"--and they do this in the blowout games as well--in EVERY sport. If you are not as good--tough. If a team gets beat by 500--so be it--they weren't good enough--but don't change the way it's officiated to keep them in contact--because that is not how the job is detailed.
Do I think Georgetown lost due to officiating? No. Do I think officials helped Davidson stay a bit closer then First half score should've been? Undoubtedly. People in America love the underdog-so it gets ignored--but as a fan who despises the underdog and wants the best teams playing or at least having the underdog EARN their wins--I get tired of seeing whistles help the less talented and punish the more talented--no matter what sport, college officiating does this and taints the games. It might not result in losses for teams--but it might change a 40 point loss to only 15--as the team gets easy points with clock stopped and then if they start hitting shots--you see what can happen.
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Post by jarninwashere on Mar 24, 2008 13:03:50 GMT -5
I've refrained from commenting on officiating in the G'town game because I have an obvious bias and I don't want to sound like I'm whining, but did anyone see the Memphis game? I counted at least 2 or 3 times when Dorsey et al. had the ball in the lane and lowered their shoulder into the Miss guy blowing him out of the way for an easy basket AND A FOUL ON THE MISS DEFENDER! Just curious whether I was the only one who saw it that way.
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Mar 24, 2008 19:43:31 GMT -5
the officiating was a joke today, and makes me bitter about being a college hoops fan in the first place Actually, the research I have read on high performers suggests that they maintain their confidence by not believing that their failures were caused by themselves.
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Mar 24, 2008 21:39:12 GMT -5
Look I believe that a #2 seed with a 17 point lead with less than 20 minutes remainin should win unless refs don't allow them to cross half court on offense or defense. But in looking at these 3 refs two of them had officiated over 70 games this year. The 3rd only had done 1 NCAA before the Davidson game, yet the average fouls called per game was 37 fouls. Two of the refs O'Neill and Jammison had highs of 55+ fouls in one game. These guys are living proof of the study done by a university whose name I can't recall that says refs try to make the game competitive for TV purposes by calling more fouls on the favorite team.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 24, 2008 21:41:50 GMT -5
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Mar 24, 2008 21:44:03 GMT -5
They got railroaded, no doubt. But, the problem is also that TAMU didn't make foul shots. We'll never know how that game should have ended. I just am not sure that they win/tie if the ref blows the whistle at that point in the game.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 24, 2008 21:45:54 GMT -5
Agree regarding the FT issue. However, the A&M example shows the 'favoritism' by officials is not limited to 'willing' the underdog to win.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Mar 24, 2008 21:57:36 GMT -5
Agree. It more likely has to do with CBS/CBB not wanting to see TAMU, WKU, WVU, or XU in San Antonio and the fact that UCLA was playing at home.
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