Hoyas Average Attendance Record in Reach!

[AustinHoya03]

Feb 4, 2008 17:28:04 GMT -5 HeartAttackHoya said:

i couldnt agree more. comparing our attendance to say North Carolina, Kentucky or the Kansas' of college basektball is not a proper indication of fan loyalty. not to mention:

5. no on campus arena

A couple of points on this:

1) If we had a 10k on-campus arena, we'd be nowhere near the record. An on-campus arena doesn't guarantee attendance while limiting capacity.

2) Kansas-Colorado, at CU's home stadium in Boulder, was on my television last weekend. It was a home game for Kansas. In fact, it looked as bad or possibly worse than the invasions we suffered at MCI during the Esherick era. An on-campus arena doesn't guarantee a home-court atmosphere.

We are doing very well at MCI this year, both in terms of atmosphere and actual attendance (not to mention W/L record). Yes, I would still like an on-campus arena (it'd sure be nice to play games like SJU on a Wednesday night there), but the existence of this thread is evidence that it is not currently a pressing issue for the program.

[SFHoya99]

Feb 4, 2008 18:09:46 GMT -5 PDRHoya99 said:

Feb 4, 2008 17:55:01 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Sad, pathetic... whatever. Sad still seems strong for being Top 25 in attendance for anything.

I'd say pathetic is a bit more pejorative a word than just sad, but we're just arguing semantics at that point. Regarless, wouldn't you agree that Patriots fans are a touch sad today despite having the best single season W-L record in their franchise history? If we're not drawing more than 13k this year, when we went to the final four a year earlier and returned practically the entire team, we've effectively found our maximum attendance. Hopefully our contract with the booth isn't dependent on consistently drawing much more than this.

I'd say it is just reality. I don't know if we've hit our absolute cap. We could become the hot ticket for some reason; DC could continue its urban transformation making the average commute shorter; even simpler, we could get a stronger non-conference home schedule. (On the last point, we'll replace Michigan with Memphis and maybe Duke next year -- that will add 500 apiece or so onto the average).

But it's reality. We have 45,000 alums in the area, and including families, that's probably close to 200,000 potential fans. But given the number of Law/Med school grads in there, the number of people who don't like sports, who live more than an hour away, whose spouses aren't sports fans, etc., the conversion rate we have for season tickets -- 5% -- isn't awful, it doesn't seem. (Yes, I realize it is lower than that b/c of non-alum fans).

Should we be drawing more than 12k for a game against Morgan State on a Tuesday?

There's obviously work that can be done, but some components are simply the result of being in a big city -- much bigger than Milwaukee, your brewery tour comments aside -- and being college basketball.

I'm sure there's something to learn from Marquette, but I think setting an attendance record will be a nice accomplishment. Then we can set our sites on Marquette.

[TBird41]

Feb 4, 2008 18:42:20 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

I'd say it is just reality. I don't know if we've hit our absolute cap. We could become the hot ticket for some reason; DC could continue its urban transformation making the average commute shorter; even simpler, we could get a stronger non-conference home schedule. (On the last point, we'll replace Michigan with Memphis and maybe Duke next year -- that will add 500 apiece or so onto the average).

But it's reality. We have 45,000 alums in the area, and including families, that's probably close to 200,000 potential fans. But given the number of Law/Med school grads in there, the number of people who don't like sports, who live more than an hour away, whose spouses aren't sports fans, etc., the conversion rate we have for season tickets -- 5% -- isn't awful, it doesn't seem. (Yes, I realize it is lower than that b/c of non-alum fans).

Should we be drawing more than 12k for a game against Morgan State on a Tuesday?

There's obviously work that can be done, but some components are simply the result of being in a big city -- much bigger than Milwaukee, your brewery tour comments aside -- and being college basketball.

I'm sure there's something to learn from Marquette, but I think setting an attendance record will be a nice accomplishment. Then we can set our sites on Marquette.[/quote]

I highly doubt we've hit our cap if JT3 keeps this program as competitive as it is, because we are going to continue to see growth amongst young alumni and the current young alumni that are becoming "regular" alumni will likely continue to buy tickets. The seniors this year are the first group that were not on campus when Esherick was coach. They are the first group that has had four years of good basketball, and for whom basketball was a fun thing that everyone did. There are thousands of students who spent college going to basketball games, who likely wouldn't have gone during the Esherick Era, and I would bet that they will continue to want to go to basketball games after graduating, which means they'll be purchasing season tickets.

[DFW HOYA]

Feb 4, 2008 18:02:36 GMT -5 PDRHoya99 said:

3. Immeasureably more alumni in area - Again, difficult to measure, but since they draw from all over the midwest, I'm guessing they have a similar alumni exodus to Chicago as we do to NYC.

New York is not as large an alumni base as it once was. Outside of Manhattan, the alumni numbers have dropped in relative terms over the years. But then again, it's no longer the leading source of students, either.

The #1 state? California.

And owing to population trends, the second most populous state needs to move up the ladder from #11. Some geographic (and political) diversity wouldn't hurt the campus landscape either.

The attendance article is a bit misleading--attendance was not much different between Reggie Willians' years and that of Kevin Braswell. Both eras suffered from spotty attendance.

1983-84: 8,386
1984-85: 10,883
1985-86: 9,159
1986-87: 8,717

1998-99: 8,750
1999-00: 7,758
2000-01: 8,695
2001-02: 8,194

[PDRHoya99]

Feb 4, 2008 20:17:28 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

New York is not as large an alumni base as it once was. Outside of Manhattan, the alumni numbers have dropped in relative terms over the years.

So our numbers are dropping off in upstate and western NY? I'm not sure that isn't just the effect of employment demographics in general. I can't imagine Buffalo is having much population growth right now. It's probably safe to assume that most of the young alumni who are likely targets for regular trips down to DC to attend games are more likely to live in Manhattan than anywhere else in the empire state.

But then again, it's no longer the leading source of students, either.

The #1 state? California.

But where are those students ending up? I'm guessing we're exporting roughly the same amount of students to LA/SF as we were a decade ago, and that a good chunk of the west coasters are converting to spend at least a few years in DC or NYC.

[DFW HOYA]

Without getting too much into demographics, the relative number of students from NY (including NYC) is down slightly while California applications are way up.

Alumni wise, the base is becoming more spread out nationally and while Wall Street still attracts the under 30 alumni, a lot of others are settling in places like suburban Maryland, Florida, and California.

As population trends continue, California, Texas, Florida, and Georgia figure to gain alumni, while NJ, Pennsylvania, and Massachusetts will experience declines, if for no other reason that the number of students moving home won't be there.

[theexorcist]

Wow. Demographic trends. I love this board.

Anyway. The majority of schools on the list are located in mid-major metropolitan areas where there are no pro sports. The three exceptions are Maryland, Marquette, and Vandy. Entertainment dollars that could be spent on the Wizards or Caps (thank you, $40 tickets on Saturday night) aren't spent on Georgetown. D.C. also has full entertainment options that a city like Nashville doesn't have. Really - there are only so many things to do for a first date in Memphis, so even a game against Southern Miss starts to sound good.

Personally, as long as GU makes money, I don't care where they stand.

[vcjack]

As a followup all those fans in the Bradley Center sure were quiet tonight, a beatdown will do that to even the "best" of crowds

[lichoya68]

forget all the BULLoneyand lets just FILL THE BOOTH AND BREAK THE RECORD. HECK THE HALL GAVE US A GAME AND SO WILL THE BULLS TOMMARROW YUP NO GIMMES IN THE BIG EAST HOPE THE STUDS REALIZE THAT GO HOYAS filll the booth and break the record YES ITS FEBRUARY AND NO GIMMES IN THE BIG EAST ;D ;D ;D

[rosslynhoya]

If we set an attendance record this season, I demand, nay, STRONGLY demand that we get an additional banner hoisted aloft the rafters of the Phone Booth alongside our Final Four banner in order to proclaim the attendence accomplishment until the end the time.

Barring that, all of the other gold stars, smiley faces, and attendance awards need to be removed immediately. They're a disgrace to the dignity of sports.

[CAHoya07]

Forgive me if this is already posted elsewhere (I know it's on the front page), but today's Washington Post has an article on increased attendance at Georgetown home games in recent years. RBHoya has some quotes.

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/04/AR2008020403215.html

[TrueHoyaBlue]

One bemusing note about the attendance figures, and record... get rid of the game in McDonough, and (even if it's replacement is an 8K attendance figure downtown for the Radford game--roughly equivalent to the Jacksonville attendance), average home attendance rises by at least 300 per game.

It does raise an interesting question to those who whole-heartedly promote and on-campus arena. If we get to the point where we are averaging 13K+ in attendance at the Verizon Center, does the financial argument for an on-campus arena hold any weight at all? (edit: If we get to the point where we're averaging 15K per game, does that change the answer?)

EDIT: DFW, just curious, is there a reason that games at McDonough that exceed 2,700 fans are not considered sellouts on the listing at hoyabasketball.com?

[SFHoya99]

Feb 5, 2008 12:11:39 GMT -5 TrueHoyaBlue said:

One bemusing note about the attendance figures, and record... get rid of the game in McDonough, and (even if it's replacement is an 8K attendance figure downtown for the Radford game--roughly equivalent to the Jacksonville attendance), average home attendance rises by at least 300 per game.

It does raise an interesting question to those who whole-heartedly promote and on-campus arena. If we get to the point where we are averaging 13K+ in attendance at the Verizon Center, does the financial argument for an on-campus arena hold any weight at all?

I think the Financial argument hinges on your opinion of substitution effect in fund-raising.

In other words, how incremental is fund-raising for an on-campus arena versus a practice facility or raising for a scholarship endowment or coach's salary or a new science building?

Because a $25-$30MM investment is likely going to take a long time to pay out, especially since you'd likely have to get rid of season-ticket holders and lose their HHC "seat licenses" as well. Student attendance would likely go to 4k and in a 7 to 8k arena, you're dropping over half the non-student season ticket holders.

If you could raise $30MM regardless of the goal, it might be better spent investing that money and funding other costs -- coach's salaries ($25MM endowment means $1.25MM a year at 5%), scholarships, practice facility (cost of keeping coaches around).

So there's the issue -- it would be hard to raise $30MM for those things. How much more do you get by making an arena the goal (over a practice facility/small gym for Radford games)? I dunno.

The bigger issue is hwo much you value having the games on campus for the students' benefit. It'd be great, but at the cost of 6,000 alumni/fan seats? Seems to me that Verizon is pretty close to campus and that the real goal for an arena on campus should be for other sports/concerts/other gatherings.

Facilities will make a much bigger impact with non-revenue sports than it will with basketball, I think. But BBall can get the money.

[theexorcist]

There remains a few big arguments for an on-campus arena.

1. Home court advantage. Sellouts being equal, fewer people means fewer people getting tickets later, which usually translates into a more passionate crowd. McDonough was more passionate for the Radford game than it was for, say, UConn.

2. Other gatherings. There's nothing on campus for any pan-university event. I would also like some Hoyas in my lifetime to see a good concert with a big name on campus.

3. Donations. This one is huge. Right now, I can donate a relatively small amount of money and get relatively good lower bowl seats. Or I can buy tickets early in the upper deck for the good games. A need to donate more (Carolina and Duke rank in the tens of thousands for season tickets), horribly capitalist though it is, can increase donations and to GU.

[SFHoya99]

That donations increase will be offset by the fact that you cut your season ticket holder base in half, if not more, because no one is proposing a 12k on campus arena.

[PDRHoya99]

Feb 5, 2008 12:35:41 GMT -5 theexorcist said:

2. Other gatherings. There's nothing on campus for any pan-university event. I would also like some Hoyas in my lifetime to see a good concert with a big name on campus.

Who exactly do we think is suddenly going to play an on campus concert?

Is U2 or the Police gonna divert their Washington date at a venue like Verizon to play a show on campus? At 8k or so seats you have a really awkwardly sized venue that there are fewer and fewer bands to fill. You are too big for the 9:30 club/blackcat act, but too small for the Verizon/RFK. Maybe you're in competition with the sheds in VA or MD (Merriweather Post, Wolftrap or Nissan), but most of those shows occur in the summer months when students aren't around anyway. [dating myself]When I was on the hilltop the folks up the road at American only managed maybe a Better than Ezra or Weezer show. Somehow I'm guessing neither would meet your standard for a "big name", but maybe I'm wrong.[/dating myself] Yes, you might be able to get a mid level band hoping to make the leap, or some kind of package show where a couple bands are on the bill, but I'm fairly certain the cost would have to be heavily subsidized to generate student interest. At best you're only talking once or twice a year, and even then you're probably losing money since the facility won't really be equipped to deal with those kinds of events, so stage/lighting/sound rentals will eat into any potential profits. It seems foolish in a town like DC where there are no shortage of music venues that this would be a strong argument for an on campus facility. If you go to school in Iowa you need your school to pull in an on campus show because bands aren't stopping otherwise (except in election years). DC has no such issues.

[Cambridge]

Feb 4, 2008 20:17:28 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Feb 4, 2008 18:02:36 GMT -5 PDRHoya99 said:

3. Immeasureably more alumni in area - Again, difficult to measure, but since they draw from all over the midwest, I'm guessing they have a similar alumni exodus to Chicago as we do to NYC.

New York is not as large an alumni base as it once was. Outside of Manhattan, the alumni numbers have dropped in relative terms over the years. But then again, it's no longer the leading source of students, either.

The #1 state? California.

And owing to population trends, the second most populous state needs to move up the ladder from #11. Some geographic (and political) diversity wouldn't hurt the campus landscape either.

The attendance article is a bit misleading--attendance was not much different between Reggie Willians' years and that of Kevin Braswell. Both eras suffered from spotty attendance.

1983-84: 8,386
1984-85: 10,883
1985-86: 9,159
1986-87: 8,717

1998-99: 8,750
1999-00: 7,758
2000-01: 8,695
2001-02: 8,194

Argument #1334135135 why we should have at least one game in CA every goddamned year.

[theexorcist]

I would have taken Better than Ezra (just turned on "This Time of Year") or Weezer. It's just that Georgetown was (at least when I was there) relatively isolated from D.C. in general, and Merriweather and Wolf Trap are $30 for a show (and difficult to get to). The competition would really be Bender and the Smith Center. It wouldn't be bad. I agree that this is a "hey, it's not a bad thing" argument and isn't a crux.

The donations increase might not be offset. In essence, you would determine the market value of season tickets. 8,000 seat arena, 4,000 seats for students, 500 for "others" (other team's allotment, player tickets, etc.). That leaves 3,500 spaces for "donation-based" seats. I don't know how many members the HHC has, but that floor might not be the membership level because someone giving $100 for average seats at Verizon might want to give $500 for a seat rather than not get one at all.

There's two other items I forgot to mention. One is the upgrading of other facilities. Women's basketball and volleyball play in a facility that compares poorly to high-level high school gyms. Upgrading the facilities might make it slightly easier to land recruits in those sports, leading them to become more successful, leading the Hoya to deign to cover them.

But the biggest issue is freedom. Remember all the complaints about Verizon piping in NBA music and the band not being able to play? Gone. All the complaints about a wimpy schedule because the only people able to play when the Caps and Wizards aren't in town? Gone. The inability to host College Game Day and have ESPN talking heads shriek on campus because the Caps are playing the Atlanta Thrashers that night? Gone.

[PDRHoya99]

Feb 5, 2008 14:07:32 GMT -5 Cambridge said:

Argument #1334135135 why we should have at least one game in CA every goddamned year.

I'm still waiting for the game that was supposed to be played here for Ashanti and Brandon. A little love for the west coast against fellow jesuits LMU or USF wouldn't hurt the schedule much (their RPIs suck this year, but playing in the WCC they at least get decent competition so they have to potential to have a higher RPI when they're winning).

Feb 5, 2008 14:22:10 GMT -5 theexorcist said:

The inability to ... have ESPN talking heads shriek on campus...? Gone.

This is a positive? Are you arguing for or against an on campus venue?

[hoyatables]

Feb 4, 2008 17:28:04 GMT -5 HeartAttackHoya said:

Feb 4, 2008 16:59:39 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

It's not sad if we "only" hit the Top 25, considering how many of those programs have:

1. 2-5x our student base
2. 2-5x our alumni base
3. Immeasureably more alumni in area
4. Lack of other local entertainment options

i couldnt agree more. comparing our attendance to say North Carolina, Kentucky or the Kansas' of college basektball is not a proper indication of fan loyalty. not to mention:

5. no on campus arena

I don't understand. How would an on-campus arena that holds less than 10,000 (there's no way you could fit anything larger on the GU campus) help us to to increase our average attendance?