World Cup

[HoyaSinceBirth]

cambridgehoya said:

nitrorebel said:

First off, Zizzzzzzzzzzzzoooooooooouuuuuuuuuuu!!! Oh my God, what happened?! I have hardly ever rooted harder for a non-Bayern player in a game, and then this?! Interesting take Russky that it may have been a racial comment that set him off. Italian football is full of racist and right-wing pricks in the game. Either way, it's inexcusable, and more than that it's so tragic it happened in the biggest game and his final one at that.

Zidane is one of the all-time greats; he's a Pele, Beckenbauer, Cruyff legend. Oh well, everyone's human, even a legend.

France was the better team, and losing on penalties stinks. Esp. when the miss was so close.

Congrats to the Italians for battling all the adversity and overcoming the lack of talent in midfield and attack with passion and teamwork.

Finally, I'm with RDF on the national team thing. I was happy Germany did well, but I support those teams that are helping football by playing a fun and clean game. Germany and Argentina were those teams for me this World Cup. Now if we're talking clubs... I'll give you a head-butt worse than Zidane's if you say something against Bayern

Five points on the head butt:

1) I loved it.

2) My first instinct was the same as Rusky, it was racially motivated. Team Zissou only goes in for the kill after the Italian player says something. You see a crazed look come over Papa Steve and he sternal cocks the guy. Impressive.

3) It shouldn't have been a red. I'm not saying it wasn't vicious and didn't deserve the red, but the ref on the field didn't see it, nor did the sideline official see DURING the happening. Rather, the stadium replayed the incident on the big screen. At which point the officials called a foul and pulled the card. Regardless of how you feel, soccer does not and has never used video replay. However, it suddenly used it to punish a player in the World Cup finals. This will have interesting implications for future games.

4) Figo headbutted a Dutch player in a similar manner (except he got the guy in the face, incidently he spat on the Dutch guy first) in the round of 16. No one saw it. It was not replayed on the big screen. It was not called. The Dutch didn't even get a free kick. Rather, the Dutch retaliated moments later in play and recieved one of many red cards that afternoon. Figo was not disciplined after the game either. There is no review of game tape during or after games in soccer. Why start now?

5) I loved it. Not since Cantona drop kicked a fan, have I been more enamored with a soccer player's onions. What a way to go out. It would make Vinnie Jones proud.

I defiently agree especially about number 3 my dad was going crazy about that cause it was obvious that no one had seen it happen and that they only red carded him after the fourth official saw it on the replay and told the main ref. which is not allowed to be done in soccer. If it had been seen by the ref or a linesman during the run of play then it's defiently a straight red card but the way in which the card was not given until after the replay was shown in the stadium tells me this is what happened.

[RusskyHoya]

cambridgehoya said:

I echo thebin and SFs statements about cheering for other countries. You are all on double secret probation until you can provide me with photographic or forensic evidence and reliable testimony that you religiously followed the team you are rooting for years with your aging immigrant grandfather.

Until you provide me with said proof, you are a bandwagon fan and I can deride you freely as such.

As an immigrant myself, from a family of immigrants, I can tell you we root even harder (not less) for the US when they play England, because we appreciate how awesome it is to have: TiVo, In n Out Burger and Netflix and be free of: rain, royalty and marmite.

I will now wrap myself in the stars and stripes as I play madden.

I'm sure I can get you a copy of my Soviet birth certificate if you'd like, heh

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

russkyhoya said:

I'm sure I can get you a copy of my Soviet birth certificate if you'd like, heh

Let's be honest about the way the Former Unbreakable Union of Free Republics works, Rusky, you're lucky if they let you into the country let alone send you actual copies of official documents.

[RusskyHoya]

Oh, well of course THEY don't have any documents left, those were all burned/pillaged/sold as toilet paper a long time ago. I still have a copy though...

(And on that note, now you understand the deeper meaning behind the expression "Bumaga vse terpit")

[RDF]

I admit to not liking soccer much--but I do watch the World Cup and International Professional Leagues--because of the quality. Watching United States Soccer is like having a preference for Minor League Baseball compared to Major Leagues and that is fine--but I enjoy the elite players doing their thing and hate the hyped US players who are boring/suck to watch. Now I do admit that maybe I've not given them a chance but a good example of what I mean is how everywhere I looked that little troll man Landon Donovan was prior to World Cup--then I watched him play and he was beyond awful to watch--didn't see why he was even out there--but on the other hand I loved watching McBride play--gave his heart/guts to the game/team. I enjoy how Brazil passes and moves the ball and find it an interesting way of playing--and I'm partial to Pele for his goal in "Victory" helping the allies win! ;D

Anyways--found it enjoyable and I grew up bored with soccer but found myself entertained by entire cup this year. And I'm type of fan who would have watched PGA Tour if Woods was playing good golf and forcing others to raise their game instead of him sinking to the level of tour with "help" of Hank Haney. PGA tour will continue to die in ratings if Woods and others don't elevate the play--they should get together and force him to go back to Butch Harmon because this crap is like old tour--stay in contention and let the other guy out-choke you. Woods is beyond unwatchable now--just painful and tired of hearing "it's almost there" from him each week--Michelle Wie is the A-Rod of female sports to me--too polished and annoying for whatever reason and I just find myself rooting against her and hoping for a Capriati like breakdown. So it was Soccer and enjoyed every game and laughed at faking, flopping and enjoyed drama passion brought by fans.

So I'm type that is learning to like it and yet doesn't find US soccer as appealing.I want to see greatest players/level of play, not bad soccer/sports rewarded.

[AustinHoya03]

rdf said:

Michelle Wie is the A-Rod of female sports to me--too polished and annoying for whatever reason and I just find myself rooting against her and hoping for a Capriati like breakdown.

Can't wait for the nosering mugshot:

Link

[JimmyHoya]

It's tied with Roy's and JW's spin moves for highlight of the year. Awesome in every sense. I'd have kept him on the field just because.

[Nitrorebel]

USE YOUR MOUSE TO DIRECT THE PLAYER,THEN LEFT CLICK FOR THE BLOW


tonaz.altervista.org/zidane.html


Enjoy!

[FLHoya]

cambridgehoya said:

Of course I can't prove anything. But I can point out that the sideline official did not have his flag raised...indicating a foul...and was on the sidelines facing an enormous replay of the incident. Therefore, I would find it hard to believe that his memory wasn't slightly influenced by the giant replay of the incident.

Nah, I don't think the theory stands up.

First of all, who even knows if/when a replay of the headbutt was shown in the Olympiastadion. Further, who knows if the Assistant Referee on that side of the field or the Fourth Official happened to be watching the television, rather than doing their job at that moment (up until the play was stopped, the Assistant Referee would of course be monitoring the field, and given that the injury/action/argument came back to his direction, if he's doing his job he's going to be watching that situation where Materazzi is now on the ground as Elizondo (or whatever his name is) comes back.

Second, the raised flag thing is irrelevant. It may have been the case some years ago that in a situation where the referee had his back turned and was yards up the field, you'd throw the flag up to get his (or, perhaps, the other two officials') attention.

But nowadays, referees in WC matches wear those dopey headsets taped to their cheek for a reason. It's to communicate with their Assistant Referees. This is something FIFA and Co. have been working on in the last decade or so--when I was still refereeing games, I worked the center for a game where we tested "electronic flags". I wore a wireless receiver in my pocket that vibrated when one of the Assistants hit a button on their flag. That was my signal if I missed/ran past an offside call or there was a Zidane-like incident behind the play. It didnt pan out--they were expensive to purchase and it's a bit startling to have a modified doggy shock collar go off in your pocket when you're officiating a match.

The Assistant Referee in the WC Final didn't NEED to "raise his flag" to signal the foul. In that situation, the assistant likely waited until the stoppage of play, knowing Elizondo (or whatever) was going to come back to check on Materazzi, and then communicated with him on the headset to come over for a chat. The chat lasted about two sentences. I did not see the headbut until the replay on TV, but as soon as Elizondo went over to speak with his assistant, I said to the room that something bad was about to go down. And when his arm went towards the back pocket it was all over.

So actually, it's entirely possible that the officiating crew showed textbook teamwork in handling the red card situation.

(EDIT: I should say, if anyone has a link to an article/account that proves the "video replay" version of events, I'd be interested to read that. That would be weird if it went down like that.)

[jerseyhoya34]

This may steer the discussion off-topic, but I think a few things need to be said about things other than Zidane after this game...

1. I think the French coach made a critical mistake by subbing Henry out. I realize that he probably could not have run the field due to his leg cramps, but France needed firepower in their PK lineup, and it is doubtful in my eyes that he would not have been able to take a PK.
a. I realize that France would have been a man down for the 2nd overtime, but, at the same time, you have to assess your chances in PK's and see that you're going to have trouble with or without Zidane because Barthez is porous at best in goal.
b. As it turns out the Henry-Trezeguet substitution was the difference. Of course, this is ex post facto evidence. At the same time, I had seen Trezeguet play before, and he seemed to have a knack for "just missing" and didn't seem like the finisher that one needs on a WC championship team.

2. I haven't seen a Euro league game before, but Henry struck me as an overrated player during the Cup. I'd describe his game as "too dainty" and in need of more aggression and physicality. That said, you need to be able to strike the ball and place it to take a PK, and he seemed pretty good at that when he had clear opportunities.

[Nitrorebel]

news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2006/teams/france/5164616.stm

FIFA saying it was NOT video replay that led to red card. We'll see - sure looked like it.

Jerz, just a note on Trezeguet. For about 6-8 years now, Trezeguet has been one of the best strikers in Europe. He averages something like 20 goals in the Serie A, which is absolutely phenomenal. The only reason he wasn't starting - which I think was a huge mistake - was because His Highness Henry wanted to be up front alone like with Arsenal. Trezeguet is also an excellent penalty-taker. The sub was not a problem at all.

However, I agree with you to an extent on Henry. He needs his team to cater to him 100%. That's why he doesn't want a top guy like Trezeguet around him. That's also why he does so well with Arsenal, where he is worshiped and the whole system is cut out to serve his strengths. He did miserably at Juve, and he never got an assist from Zizou for France until the Brazil goal because there he has superstars that too want the ball, and he's just another top player, but not the focal point. Basically, he's a bit of a Kobe in my mind. He's very talented obviously and an excellent player, but the English press hype him beyond who he is. I'll take Shevchenko or Eto'o or Adriano over Henry. And let's not forget the outrageous dive against Puyol that led to the goal against Spain. He's not the innocent he likes to act he is.

[FLHoya]

nitrorebel said:

Jerz, just a note on Trezeguet. For about 6-8 years now, Trezeguet has been one of the best strikers in Europe. He averages something like 20 goals in the Serie A, which is absolutely phenomenal. The only reason he wasn't starting - which I think was a huge mistake - was because His Highness Henry wanted to be up front alone like with Arsenal. Trezeguet is also an excellent penalty-taker. The sub was not a problem at all.

Of course the other side note on Trezeguet...his "knack for just missing" includes...scoring the Golden Goal that won Euro 2000 against Italy.

I own a bunch of soccer jerseys I've acquired over the years. But the only one where I chose to get a specific player's jersey rather than a generic was a Trezeguet jersey I bought in Italy in December 2000--so a few months after his Euro 2000 winner. It was a Juventus jersey and I haaaaaaaaaate Juventus (they can go get relegated to Serie Q for all a care), so clearly there's some Trezeguet-fandom on my part that made up for it.

That statement by FIFA also notes that it was the Fourth Official who alerted Elizondo to the headbutt.

I still don't understand how the mere fact that there was a delay in giving out the red card is leading to the "instant replay" conspiracy theory (okay, I DO see how, but I don't "get it"). Of course there's going to be a delay--the guy who has to give the card didn't see it and has to discuss it with the Fourth Official. Nothing about how that incident was handled struck me as unusual at the time--maybe it's b/c I've experienced similar ones as a former official.

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Sport/2006/07_Luglio/10/pop_zidane.shtml

Have fun. Its occupied me for at least 20 minutes now.

[Joe Hoya]

My two cents, since I somehow have not commented on the World Cup at all...

My grandfather's parents came over on the boat from Italy, so I'm a mutt who's one-quarter Italian, making me more Italian than anything except for one: American. I rooted like crazy for the USA against those diving, cheating, flopping, whining nancyboys from Italy and was quite disappointed when we didn't win. After the elimination of Team USA, I casually supported Argentina solely because I predicted they would win the whole thing (and being more right in my predictions than my dad and sister is one of the most important things in my life . It was hard because the team I wanted to win was out. Once the team I thought would win was out as well, and Italy was facing Zee Germans...well that was an easy one (with Pops and Sis taking the home team to win the Cup, I was doing The Airplane around the house after the goal in the 119th in the semifinal and ended up missing the second one). And then, as an American...how could I root for France?

I'm rationalizing on why and how I whored myself out, but the point is I only took up the cause of my bloodline after my true squad was sent packing.

As an aside, any chance we'll have a Premiership thread going in a few weeks? I decided to start following English football, and for whatever reason, maybe because Claudio Reyna is on the team, maybe because they're overshadowed by the other team in town, or maybe because the Gallagher brothers like the team, I decided to be a Manchester City supporter. I think I may be an idiot, but whatever. I know some people are supporters of Premier League teams, so I guess I was wondering if maybe there would be a thread where I could learn some stuff without really trying.

Second aside, in the aforementioned family prediction contest, I went 8-0 in the Round of 16...then promptly went 1-3 in the quarters.

Third aside: Zidane was probably insanely provoked by Matterazzi, who probably deserved something...but bro, you're the best player in the world, probably of your entire generation, captain and leader of a team ten minutes away from penalties in a World Cup Final...bite your lip, run upfield, then knife his tires in the parking lot or something. Total boneheaded mistake by Zizou, and I think the most enduring image of this Cup is the one of Zidane walking past the trophy, head bowed, into the locker room.

By the way, in case you didn't know or no one told you...that was Zinedine Zidane's last match.

[VelvetElvis]

Didn't see this anywhere in the thread and I don't know how reliable the source is, but here is one account of what was said as stated on the daily mail website...Not that it justifies anything that happened:

"First defender Marco Materazzi spoke in Italian - a language understood by Zidane who once played for Italian side Juventus - grabbed his opponent and told him 'hold on, wait, that one's not for a n***** like you.'

and then:

....as the players walked forward Materazzi said: 'We all know you are the son of a terrorist whore.'

Then, just before the headbutt, he was seen saying,: 'So just f*** off.'

tinyurl.com/qfk7l

[afirth]

soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=373706&cc=5901


"Materazzi, 32, told Gazetta dello Sport: 'I held his shirt for a few seconds only, then he turned to me and talked to me, jeering.

'He looked at me with a huge arrogance and said, `If you really want my shirt I'll give it to you afterwards'. I replied with an insult, that's true.'

Materazzi has not elaborated on what he did say, but one report suggested he responded with: `I'd rather take the shirt off your wife'.

He has denied, however, some of the more vile insults referring to his wife or sister or calling him a terrorist.

'It was one of those insults you're told dozens of times and that you often let fall on a pitch,' Materazzi said.

'I did not call him a terrorist. I am not a cultured person and I don't even know what an Islamist terrorist is.'"


rumors have been circulating that Zidane will give his side of the story in the next couple of days. although the statement "I dont even know what an Islamist terrorist is" has to be one of the funniest lies I've heard in a long time.

[nodak89]

cam said:

I think that if you're an American soccer fan, you NEED to have a second team to root for to stay interested. If that's a result of your heritage, so be it. If it's Brazil or Argentina because you like their style, that's fine by me. I'd love for soccer to have a greater following in the US, so if that's what does it for you, I have no problem with that.

Amen. Like Joe Hoya, I am a mutt that is second most Italian. I'm half Filipino, but that is kinda irrelevant in the FIFA universe. Next after Italian comes German.

I studied Deutsch and spoke it with my grandfather. Deutschland is my second favorite non-American team.

I may be 50% Filipino, 25% Italian, and 12.5% German
but I am 100% American.

USA is first, but once they are out---Azzurri! and Schwarz und Weiss!


PS With regards to the 3rd place match...
Oli Kahn! Oli Kahn! Oli Kahn!

[Cambridge]

joehoya said:

My two cents, since I somehow have not commented on the World Cup at all...

My grandfather's parents came over on the boat from Italy, so I'm a mutt who's one-quarter Italian, making me more Italian than anything except for one: American. I rooted like crazy for the USA against those diving, cheating, flopping, whining nancyboys from Italy and was quite disappointed when we didn't win. After the elimination of Team USA, I casually supported Argentina solely because I predicted they would win the whole thing (and being more right in my predictions than my dad and sister is one of the most important things in my life . It was hard because the team I wanted to win was out. Once the team I thought would win was out as well, and Italy was facing Zee Germans...well that was an easy one (with Pops and Sis taking the home team to win the Cup, I was doing The Airplane around the house after the goal in the 119th in the semifinal and ended up missing the second one). And then, as an American...how could I root for France?

I'm rationalizing on why and how I whored myself out, but the point is I only took up the cause of my bloodline after my true squad was sent packing.

As an aside, any chance we'll have a Premiership thread going in a few weeks? I decided to start following English football, and for whatever reason, maybe because Claudio Reyna is on the team, maybe because they're overshadowed by the other team in town, or maybe because the Gallagher brothers like the team, I decided to be a Manchester City supporter. I think I may be an idiot, but whatever. I know some people are supporters of Premier League teams, so I guess I was wondering if maybe there would be a thread where I could learn some stuff without really trying.

Second aside, in the aforementioned family prediction contest, I went 8-0 in the Round of 16...then promptly went 1-3 in the quarters.

Third aside: Zidane was probably insanely provoked by Matterazzi, who probably deserved something...but bro, you're the best player in the world, probably of your entire generation, captain and leader of a team ten minutes away from penalties in a World Cup Final...bite your lip, run upfield, then knife his tires in the parking lot or something. Total boneheaded mistake by Zizou, and I think the most enduring image of this Cup is the one of Zidane walking past the trophy, head bowed, into the locker room.

By the way, in case you didn't know or no one told you...that was Zinedine Zidane's last match.

Well played Joe. I commend your patriotism and fervor.

As for the Premier League, I am a fourth generation Liverpool supporter. That is nothing to brag about.

Oh, and I hold a soft spot in my heart for Queen's Park Rangers...strange childhood affinity.

More importantly, I HATE: Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea.

This last part, hate, is probably the most effective and authentic means to follow the premiership. The entire league is often hinged on nationwide schadenfreude. So I figure, choose a few teams and players who you really hate...and then root against them. Eventually, you will take a shine to those who cause the hated pain and suffering.

[VelvetElvis]

afirthionado said:

soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=373706&cc=5901


"Materazzi, 32, told Gazetta dello Sport: 'I held his shirt for a few seconds only, then he turned to me and talked to me, jeering.

'He looked at me with a huge arrogance and said, `If you really want my shirt I'll give it to you afterwards'. I replied with an insult, that's true.'

Materazzi has not elaborated on what he did say, but one report suggested he responded with: `I'd rather take the shirt off your wife'.

He has denied, however, some of the more vile insults referring to his wife or sister or calling him a terrorist.

'It was one of those insults you're told dozens of times and that you often let fall on a pitch,' Materazzi said.

'I did not call him a terrorist. I am not a cultured person and I don't even know what an Islamist terrorist is.'"


rumors have been circulating that Zidane will give his side of the story in the next couple of days. although the statement "I dont even know what an Islamist terrorist is" has to be one of the funniest lies I've heard in a long time.

So...the only people in Italia who know what the term terrorist means are the cultured? I guess they teach you that during the intermissions of all of those Operas that they attend

beautiful music, beautiful music...THIS IS JIHAD...beautiful music, beautiful music....THIS IS FATWA

Besides, isn't this guy's dad a famous coach?

I would have pulled the italian's pants down in front of the whole world. THAT would have been funny!

[Boz]

Well, who wouldn't want to take the shirt off of Zidane's wife. . .

tinyurl.com/zzvvn