FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Oct 4, 2005 21:22:03 GMT -5
Ugh, you know TBS hasn't even used that "America's Team" slogan for years. I never liked it. Personally, I'd be just fine with the Braves being "that team who St Pete, me, and a couple rednecks like who can't fill their own stadium in the playoffs but just won a second World Series". One of these years it's gonna pan out again.
Be Proud. Be Brave.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Oct 5, 2005 9:33:08 GMT -5
perhaps b/c their stadium isn't the size of a handicapped bathroom stall... seriously, though, whatsup with not being able to sell out world series games atlanta? in 1999 we almost drove to Atlanta to watch the Yankees play in game 3 - plenty of seats were available. Was that post about the Braves being America's team serious? They can't even fill their own stadium.
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Joe Hoya
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Post by Joe Hoya on Oct 5, 2005 18:49:07 GMT -5
Braves 11-0 - perfect sweep. Oops. Remind me again who exactly is going to pitch for them when their starters tire?
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Oct 5, 2005 21:43:21 GMT -5
Braves 11-0 - perfect sweep. Oops. Remind me again who exactly is going to pitch for them when their starters tire? A minor set back - there is no harm in going 11-1. I can't be perfect everytime and neither can the Braves. Don't worry America's Team will right the ship under the leadership of the greatest manager in baseball history and the greatest pitching coach in baseball history.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Oct 5, 2005 22:43:57 GMT -5
Oops. Remind me again who exactly is going to pitch for them when their starters tire? A minor set back - there is no harm in going 11-1. I can't be perfect everytime and neither can the Braves. Don't worry America's Team will right the ship under the leadership of the greatest manager in baseball history and the greatest pitching coach in baseball history. Yeah, I mean, once Reitsma gets his postseason ERA back under 100, we're golden. When Joey Devine NOT giving up a grand slam in a relief appearance is a cause for celebration...hey, at least it's better than Dan Kolb. So tomorrow if the Braves LDS pattern of the past few years holds, will be tense 45 minute 8th and 9th inning game with clutch hit from unexpected source (LaRoche and Furcal having provided the drama in the last two), which will clear the way for Jorge Sosa to go about 1 2/3 on Saturday and get striped, Farnesworth to pitch out of some ridiculous bases loaded jam to win Game 4, and like 25,000 people show up for Game 5 when the Braves try to rewrite the script.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Oct 6, 2005 0:39:01 GMT -5
A-Rotten strikes again--"Mr. Clutch" kills this team with his mediocre, gutless performances and once again he comes up small and his defense goes to hell in a big game.
For someone who craved the "big stage" he sure comes up like a puke. It's a lot different beating on teams you should like Baltimore/Toronto then it is when you face the tough/big games. A-Rotten has owned Angels in his career and he comes up with nothing more than a huge error and base running blunder--you NEVER run on a 1-2 count and he gets thrown out. But he's the "best" so what can we say? I hope this goon gets booed out of Yankee Stadium come Friday Night and can't wait for his latest choke job. Yankees will never win a Title with this clown on their team.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Oct 6, 2005 9:30:45 GMT -5
RDF, as stated before, your opinion on this matter was completely invalidated when you claimed that having Soriano on this team instead of A-Rod would have no bearing on the standings. You clearly hate the guy, and that's fine, but I have a hard time taking anything you say on the matter seriously when you want to swap him out for Soriano. He had a bad game. Awful game. But what about the rest of the team? Derek Jeter went 0 for 5 with 2 Ks. Only one hit with runners in scoring position. There was a lot more wrong with the way they played than A-Rod's error and CS [which was def ill advised, but if they don't pitch out, he's beating Molina]. Lest we forget how lucky the Angels got with all those BS choppers - is that infield made of rubber? It's a shame Wang had to lose that game b/c he made 2 mistakes all night - Rivera's HR and Cabrera's single. Those're the breaks. Joe Torre leaving in Leiter was puzzling too - with an off day, go to Gordon/Rivera. We had better hit Paul Byrd, guys who change speeds typically give us fits. And hopefully RJ shows up. I don't want to have to go back to Anaheim. A-Rotten strikes again--"Mr. Clutch" kills this team with his mediocre, gutless performances and once again he comes up small and his defense goes to hell in a big game. For someone who craved the "big stage" he sure comes up like a puke. It's a lot different beating on teams you should like Baltimore/Toronto then it is when you face the tough/big games. A-Rotten has owned Angels in his career and he comes up with nothing more than a huge error and base running blunder--you NEVER run on a 1-2 count and he gets thrown out. But he's the "best" so what can we say? I hope this goon gets booed out of Yankee Stadium come Friday Night and can't wait for his latest choke job. Yankees will never win a Title with this clown on their team.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Oct 6, 2005 11:29:42 GMT -5
Soriano's not as good of a player as A-Rotten but he's not as big of an egomaniacal CANCER either. That's my point and anytime you see A-Rotten, he's talking about what he WILL do, what he's GOING to do, or what's he's done INDIVIDUALLY. The man is gutless, doesn't understand the concept of being a tough, team oriented player. For instance, his attempt to steal last night after his Edited poor error had nothing to do with him wanting to help the team, he wanted to take out his frustrations and he runs on a 1-2 count? PATHETIC and shows what a mental midget he is.
His contract compared to Soriano's is a weighty thing to deal with. He's a poor fielder who doesn't commit a lot of errors because he has zero range to his left and doesn't attempt to get balls that most 3B do. Soriano is a butcher and has no plate discipline but in the concept of a full season the production isn't great enough difference to justify making this move. You move Soriano to CF as NY should've and you've got an upgrade over Bernie Williams both offensively and defensively and strengthen your team--3B are easier to find then good CF's and Soriano's a talented enough athlete to play CF and would've done so for Yankees, but nobody else.
Most of all, Soriano contributed to WIN games in postseason--you must hold Marlins series personally against him and forgotten that if Mo gets the D-Backs out in 9th, he's your World Series MVP. The day A-Rotten comes up big like that, will be the day the world ends. He's just so small in big moments. Whether you want to call him MAY-Rod or A-Rotten, he's the most overrated player on this team and will continue to be the cancer that kills Yankees. It's the CURSE OF AROTTEN.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Oct 6, 2005 13:03:03 GMT -5
That's 100% absurd. He tried to steal second to take out his frustrations from the field? And you know this how? He stole 2nd successfully prior to that. Maybe he was trying to make things happen late in the game, as it was readily apparent no one else was. He got on base, which is more than I can say for the rest of the team. Soriano isn't an egomaniac? Do you remember him coming up short in the 40/40 chase? What was that, trying to hit a HR every at bat? Team play? Soriano is one of the laziest players in baseball, and should have changed positions years ago. He has already said he WILL NOT PLAY CF. He has more value as a 40 HR hitting 2B than OF, hence his desire to stay there - as well as his agent's. He never said he'd have done so if he could stay with the Yankees. that's 100% false. A-Rod, by the way, did change positions to help the Yankees - the best SS in baseball plays 3b for the Yankees. One HR shy of the all time SS HR record [paging mike piazza]. Don't forget that. I would have preferred Tejada at SS a couple of years ago to move Jeter, but what can you do? Furthermore, the Yankees are on the hook for 16 million a year from A-Rod due to the Rangers cash throw in with the deal. What is Soriano going to sign for? He'll look for 10 plus per year. And his value is down now from when the Yankees traded him. The Yanks traded a talented, but lazy, player with a bad attitude at the peak of his value for the best player in baseball, and only added 5 or 6 million dollars to their payroll. Also, Soriano would never have won World Series MVP in 2001. The Yankees scored 14 runs in seven games - an offensive player winning MVP would have been an absolute farce. Rivera would have won MVP. And his clutch HR vs Schilling was great and all, but he was the worst player in the 2003 Series for either team - and that includes Aaron Boone's sorry ass. As for A-Rod's shortcomings as a 3b...one, he has been playing that position for 2 years and he is considered one of the best in the game. his range to his left is OK, and for certain it is better than Derek Jeter's range up the middle [Jeter should be the Yanks CF, A-Rod the SS, if you want to get into position changes]. He has saved games this season with his D, whether you want to admit it or not. And the DP he turned the night Jeter dove into the stands [diving stab to his left, touched 3b bag with his hand, and throws ball around Gabe Kapler to get him on the tag at home] was one of the better defensive plays i have ever seen. To claim that Sori contributed to postseason wins and A-Rod didn't is ridiculous. As stated before, A-Rod has a very good divisional series [GW double ring a bell? prevented us from going down 2-0] and absolutely murdered the ball in the first 3 games ofthe ALCS, and would have had the series winning HR if Mo closes out. Sheffield and Matsui had awful 2004 postseasons after jumping out to a 3-0 lead, too. No one blasts them for the Yanks collapse. Only A-Rod. You're a hater. Plain and simple. My roommate is, too. Of course he is a Braves fan and admits he is a hater when i ask him what position player he'd build a franchise around - it's A-Rod. Soriano's not as good of a player as A-Rotten but he's not as big of an egomaniacal CANCER either. That's my point and anytime you see A-Rotten, he's talking about what he WILL do, what he's GOING to do, or what's he's done INDIVIDUALLY. The man is gutless, doesn't understand the concept of being a tough, team oriented player. For instance, his attempt to steal last night after his Edited poor error had nothing to do with him wanting to help the team, he wanted to take out his frustrations and he runs on a 1-2 count? PATHETIC and shows what a mental midget he is. His contract compared to Soriano's is a weighty thing to deal with. He's a poor fielder who doesn't commit a lot of errors because he has zero range to his left and doesn't attempt to get balls that most 3B do. Soriano is a butcher and has no plate discipline but in the concept of a full season the production isn't great enough difference to justify making this move. You move Soriano to CF as NY should've and you've got an upgrade over Bernie Williams both offensively and defensively and strengthen your team--3B are easier to find then good CF's and Soriano's a talented enough athlete to play CF and would've done so for Yankees, but nobody else. Most of all, Soriano contributed to WIN games in postseason--you must hold Marlins series personally against him and forgotten that if Mo gets the D-Backs out in 9th, he's your World Series MVP. The day A-Rotten comes up big like that, will be the day the world ends. He's just so small in big moments. Whether you want to call him MAY-Rod or A-Rotten, he's the most overrated player on this team and will continue to be the cancer that kills Yankees. It's the CURSE OF AROTTEN.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Oct 6, 2005 13:14:02 GMT -5
Any time the Yankees lose, I'm happy, so I probably have no business jumping into this debate, but I do have a question. Are you all sure that ARod was attempting to steal on his own? Does he have carte blanche on the base paths, or had he gotten a steal sign from the bench? Now I admit that attempting to steal on a 1-2 count with nobody out is somewhat odd, but I'm nevertheless curious about that. Did Torre say ARod was attempting to steal on his own? Hey, RDF, I assume your AL MVP vote would go to David Ortiz.
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Bahstin
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Post by Bahstin on Oct 6, 2005 13:20:30 GMT -5
Ortiz for MVP! Forget Slappy McBluelips.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Oct 6, 2005 13:22:47 GMT -5
RDF has a tunnel that goes into A-Rod's mind. Like in Being John Malkovich. That's how he knows. Duh. Any time the Yankees lose, I'm happy, so I probably have no business jumping into this debate, but I do have a question. Are you all sure that ARod was attempting to steal on his own? Does he have carte blanche on the base paths, or had he gotten a steal sign from the bench? Now I admit that attempting to steal on a 1-2 count with nobody out is somewhat odd, but I'm nevertheless curious about that. Did Torre say ARod was attempting to steal on his own? Hey, RDF, I assume your AL MVP vote would go to David Ortiz.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Oct 6, 2005 13:28:08 GMT -5
Torre gives his base runners the green light and the reason I say that he was running out of his own frustration was the count he chose to run on--you NEVER run on a 1-2 count due to fact that opponent can pitch out, but A-Rotten was determined that he was going to "make up" for his horsecrap fielding.
Borat, I admit that I hate Rodriguez and it's something I said many times. Soriano would've been MVP due to his 2 game winning hits in Game 5 and Game 7 if they would've won--that's how it works, when you step up, you get rewarded.
A-Rotten is known as the "COOLER" for a reason and it's because teams he leaves are better off without him and you can't argue that point. He leaves the Mariners, they proceed to set a record for regular season wins. He leaves the Rangers and they are much better and on the right track. He comes to the Yankees and they:
1. Lose to Boston
2. Blow a 3-0 lead in ALCS to become biggest CHOKE ARTIST of all time
3. Was personally responsible for Boston making the Playoffs and not falling apart to begin with by taking the bait that Varitek and Sox put out there.
The guy is hated by every peer he has and it's not out of jealousy, its how he acts like he's done something and all he has is individual acclaim. He is a Kevin Garnett like figure of Baseball--you get his numbers over the course of a season but when game is on the line, only guarantee is that he/his team will fail and come up small. I'd rather have Garnett though because he's not as egotistical.
Again, I'm not saying Soriano is better than Rodriguez, just saying I'd rather have him on my team. I think Rodriguez is a mechanical/awkward looking athlete to watch--nothing looks fluid/natural , he runs awkward, he fields awkward, and he has a slow bat that can't catch up to any above average fastball.
Let's see how he does the rest of this Series but I hope that he gets the reception he deserves when stepping up to plate to hit in Game 3--BOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BTW, A-Rotten is wearing the reverse of Dave Winfield (13/31) and he's playing like it on the big stage. Game on line, I'd rather see Matsui, Giambi, Jeter, Sheffield, or even Cano then A-Rotten and how many "MVP's" can you say that about???
Ortiz is my choice and only Yankee deserving consideration is Mariano Rivera.
As for "Who would I start a team with?" Tough question but Rodriguez wouldn't be in my top 20 I can tell you that. Then again, I like people like Jason Varitek more than "Stats" players and that's why I loved Thurman, Paul O'Neill, and guys like that. They are leaders/winners and grinders. Funny how teams lose a lot without them and with them they go unnoticed. You take A-Rotten, I'll take Ortiz, Varitek, Jeter, Matsui types and we'll see who comes out better.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Oct 6, 2005 13:56:59 GMT -5
i don't feel like discussing this with you further b/c you are biased b/c you're a hater, but:
1) you don't know why he was running on that pitch. stop saying you do. there may have been a hit and run on that giambi missed. no one knows. what i do know is that A-Rod was on base and trying to make things happen. no one else was.
2) Rivera would have gotten the saves in games 3 and 7, wins in games 4 and 5. All on 2 inning performances. He is your MVP for the 2001 WS. This isn't even a debate.
3) Sheffield came to the Yankees the same year as A-Rod. He was notoriously awful in the postseason for Atlanta. He TOOK STEROIDS. He skates by it all. Where was he in the ALCS? Why is all of it on A-Rod?
4) Texas is on the right track? Seattle wouldn't be better off with A-Rod right now instead of Richie Sexson and Adrian Beltre? These teams had one good season post A-Rod and their franchises started backsliding toward . I hardly qualify either as "on the right track". And the Mariners made it to the ALCS with A-Rod, losing to the Yankees with and without him. And since the regular season means nothing, who cares that they won 116 games?
5) You are pinning the Bososx making the playoffs and Yankees 3-0 collapse totally on A-Rod. that's ridiculous. i can't say it enough. it's ridiculous.
6) If you'd rather have Soriano on your team than A-Rod, if only b/c A-Rod isn't a "fluid" athlete, you can enjoy sitting the playoffs out. Soriano has way more holes in his game than A-Rod, and if the yankees had Soriano instead of A-Rod this season, they do not make the playoffs. A-Rod had the best season of any righty in Yankees history. He played in a park that is murder on righties [compared to Ortiz at Fenway, which inflates everyone's numbers] and still put up insane numbers.
7) That A-Rod wouldn't be in your top 20 does not bode well for your chances at being an MLB scout. And thanks for being so generous and only taking Varitek, Ortiz, Jeter and Matsui so start a team. The AL's best offensive catcher, an MVP caliber DH, a guy who averages something like 180 hits a season, and an RBI machine - yeah, you like those grinders. I'll spot you Michael Young too, move him to 2B. You don't want to end up with Soriano at 2nd. Amazingly, all of your "grinders" are perennial All Stars.
and if you write anything to reply to this, please cite a source saying Soriano would have moved to CF to stay in Pinstripes. you lose all credibility when you make things up, RDF.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Oct 6, 2005 14:59:07 GMT -5
I gotta agree with RDF with this one. I'm a Baltimore Oriole fan, so I've seen my fair share of Yankee games. A-Rod may be the best player in the game, but he is not clutch at all. He is very un-Yankee like. I HATE the Yankees. But the reason I HATE the Yankees is that they are never out of a game, and most of their players have a history, unfortunately for my favorite baseball team, of stepping up in big ball games when it matters most, i.e., Derek Jeter. A-Rod does not do this. I'd take Soriano any day over A-Rod.
That is why the whole Ortiz vs. A-Rod debate for MVP is laughable. I mean, Oritz hits game-winning or game-chainging 2-run homers in his sleep. This man is clutch. To me THAT makes you a great player or one of the best. A-Rod fails in that category. But he is well-liked and admired, so people tend to overlook it and outright defend his lack of, eh, "cahones" in crunch time.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Oct 6, 2005 15:10:50 GMT -5
Borat, we're not going to get anywhere on this because I am an admitted A-Rotten hater and you are a so far up his rear that will now get blamed when he chokes as i'm thinking you are part of him, LOL--it's just a joke.
I will say that Mariners had a very solid replacement in Carlos Guillen and letting him go led to their downfall more than losing A-Rotten. Didn't help when Pinella left either as he's one of the better managers in the game.
Texas is so far ahead of whwere they were with A=Rod it's silly you'd say they aren't on right track. They need pitching--who doesnT??--and their lineup is better without him--and players are happier too.
I named some guys I'd build my team around over him--what's point on listing every single guy. As for me being a Scout--you are right, I wouldn't be a good MLB Scout because I'd want TEAM ORIENTED guys who don't care about stats and only care about winning. Say what you want about Soriano but he was well respected by his teammates and his peers and still is--A-Rod isn't. I think you are viewing my argument in wrong terms, Rodriguez is a better player but I'm not disagreeing with that--I am saying you can have a better team without him if you are Yankees--and specifically addressing that argument, not their impact overall.
As a Yankee fan I hope to God you are right and this guy shows up and makes me look like a fool, because that would mean Yanks win, but I expect nothing more but same of what we have seen so far--which is him coming up minor in major situations.
As a former player at the Collegiate level, there is a lot more that goes into being a championship team then having good talent, it's about grinding out games and making yourself valuable in all areas. Players that are selfish often compound their mistakes by trying to "save face"--i.e him not thinking of the situation and running on a 1-2 count. That's selfish baseball, just as his stolen bases down the stretch in MVP race were--if he's able to steal 6/7 bases in last week of season--where was that over the previous 150 games? Team could've used that as much then as down the stretch but that's just my take.
I view Rodriguez negatively and think he's a loser who doesn't have it in him to win. You disagree. Only thing that matters is what he does and so far he's not backing up your claim at all--Soriano on Yankees was part of 2 World Series Teams and A-Rod was part of the biggest embarassment in Franchise History. When you make the $$ he does, crave the "stage" he does, you have to come up big--he wanted this type of atmosphere and pressure and while it's great when you are rolling, it's also difficult when you stink it up. Let's see how he responds because one thing stats have shown is that Rodriguez "owns" the Angels, right? Well he's got his chance to make up for Game 2 blunders and for NY's sake hope he makes you look good.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Oct 6, 2005 15:48:42 GMT -5
as a matter of full disclosure, A-Rod isn't anywhere near my favorite Yankee. Mariano Rivera, Andy Pettitte, and Don Mattingly are my three fav of my lifetime. Mariano and Andy the most clutch players of the Yankee Dynasty. Lou Gehrig is a guy whose career/life I admire, so i'll put him in there. That said, i recognize that A-Rod is the best position player on our team, and most important to our offensive success this season, and that he gets labeled as the face of failure for the 2004 Yankees unfairly. I am not taking his side out of loyalty - cross Mariano Rivera and you'll get me mad. But assessing that much blame to one player is silly.
Anyway, the Texas Rangers went from 71-91, to 89-73, to 79-83. Are they better? Yes, slightly. But they are better b/c they got rid of A-Rod's contract, not his production. ie They can't sign Chris Young to an extension if A-Rod is still there, they freed up money to pay Teixera, etc etc. They needed to get rid of him b/c they had young players they needed to play/pay. That franchise just fired its GM, may not bring back Buck Showalter, and has a whole lot of question marks - the right track is being generous in describing them.
Again, you're making things up about Soriano. He was not well liked by his teammates. He was a notorious partier that enjoyed his celebrity status in New York way too much. He has all the talent in the world and hasn't improved very much since 2003. I'd argue that he has regressed, in fact. He insists on being a 2B and pouted when he was removed from the leadoff spot in Texas. He is not a team player, he doesn't run hard out of the box, he gives up on plays - there is a reason he is going to be traded again. I will never concede that point to you.
As for A-Rod not being team oriented... I don't know what he has to do to prove this to you. He changed positions to come here - and he is a better shortstop than Derek Jeter [it could be argued that jeter is the selfish one]. He tried to give up money to get to Boston. The guy wants to win. Sure he's plastic and always says the right thing - that doesn't change the fact that he wants to bring a ring to New York. And, again, in a small sample size of playoff games, he has been as good as anyone on the team in the playoffs the past two seasons. Is he Paul O'Neill? No. We need to stop asking him to be.
As for his stolen bases down the stretch...given that every game was crucial, i'd hardly call that stat padding my man.
As for Soriano vs A-Rod...that's a milk cart to a rocket ship. Soriano had the good fortune of playing on those teams - he was a rookie in 2001 and his contributions were gravy. in 2003 he failed to reach 40/40 by swinging at everything down the stretch...and that continued into the postseason. His 2003 postseason was INFINITELY worse than A-Rod's in 2004 - again, ARod had a lot of big hits in 2004 before EVERYONE SPIT THE BIT. not just A-Rod. I am cringing just thinking about Sori vs the Marlins in 2003...slider in the dirt = K. Soriano played real well in the 2001 WS...pitchers adjusted and he is a decent 2b with good pop now. Will Purdue won a bunch of rings in the NBA, i don't think he is a champ and Patrick Ewing is a choker b/c his Knicks teams could never win a ring. He was a benefit of circumstance.
This is A-Rod's second October. He played well last October, despite the team's collapse. Give him more than two games in 2005 before judging him as useless or useful. Derek Jeter was far more useless last night.
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hoyabinx
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Post by hoyabinx on Oct 6, 2005 22:57:03 GMT -5
Whats with all the Braves hate? I mean yeah, we don't sell out division series games but last years game 5 NLDS was damn near sold out. The stadium is freaking huge too, over 50K so its tough to sell it out. But if we make the LCS (fingers crossed) we will sell out. Granted we dont get all the early games which is what usually happens.
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nodak89
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Post by nodak89 on Oct 7, 2005 10:07:43 GMT -5
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Oct 7, 2005 11:39:15 GMT -5
Smoltz has to make the Hall. His numbers may be borderline (although he does have another of those oddball starter/closer careers), but his post season performances have to seal the deal. The guy is just a rock.
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