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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Jul 17, 2005 1:29:18 GMT -5
Lance has increased his lead in his bid to win 7 straight, he has to be one of the most remarkable stories in modern sports. Its one thing to be a dynasty in an individual sport - its completely another to do it after nearly dying of cancer.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jul 18, 2005 9:04:14 GMT -5
This got me thinking...and this isn't in any way meant to take away from Lance's accomplishments...but it seems that the team aspect of cycling is routinely ignored or underplayed. While the leader of the team has to be an incredible athlete and actually win the race...his team provides him with moral support, pacing, protection, drafting, etc...all designed to keep the contender within shot of the big prize. I would assume a good team can make a great cyclist into an unbeatable one and a bad team can hinder even a good cyclist. Of course, Lance seemed to almost transcend this rule a week ago when his team fell far behind, leaving him exposed during the first climbing stage...Lance still managed to keep with the leaders, but had to do it alone. Was that an even bigger deal than people are making it out to be? I don't really know much about cycling. Anyone with any knowledge or experience wish to comment? I'd love to learn more.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jul 18, 2005 12:35:17 GMT -5
I'm not real knowledgable either, but I will say that
1. Lance fending off a team breakaway by himself was a tremendous accomplishment.
2. Lance always seems to give major credit to his teammates for their contributions.
3. Lance seemed genuinely thrilled that longtime teammate and friend George Hincapie won the last stage.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jul 18, 2005 13:30:27 GMT -5
I don't have any experience, certainly, but I have been a pretty avid follower of this race since Greg LeMond won a few titles. If you watch the coverage, Phil Liggett and Paul Sherwyn do a really good job of explaining the importance of the team and what they do for their leader. And, believe it or not, when they interview Sheryl Crow, she has a lot of good information; mainly because she is learning herself, so she relates what the team talks about and what she learned that day.
When it comes down to the real grind, it is the individual's performance that will make the difference. I don't think a team can "make" a champion, but at the same time, a champion-level rider will need strong support. In a 200km ride, you'll see on TV primarily short snippets of that, and those are the times that someone like Lance Armstrong will make his move to outdistance his competitors. For a lot of the rest of the race, the team's job is to protect him and help him conserve his energy so he can perform in those critical moments.
For instance, in some of the mountain stages, there are long rides on flat land to reach the climbs. They are usualy riding around 30 mph in those areas. Drafting in areas like that is invaluable in conserving strength. When they reach the climb, they go much slower, so the team isn't quite as big a factor. But still, you want teammates around for some protection until its time to make a move, if there's going to be a move. As was just noted, the fact that Lance held off coordinated (and repeated) attacks without any support is pretty impressive, but they are attacking him in his strong pont, so to speak. It's amazing, but simply in and of the fact that his strength in mountains is just amazing.
Teammates also help if you need to chase down a breakaway or a challenge, and also for communication. When George Hincapie won yesterday, his main job was to stay in the lead group and be available for Lance if he needed help to fend off any challengers toward the finish. Since that didn't happen, Hincapie was free to try to win the stage.
Anyway, Armstrong primarily wins because he is an unmatched climber. (I've always wanted to see what would have happened in a tour between Lance at his best and Marco Pantani, who was an incredible climber as well, at his best). But he also wins because he's had pretty much the best team for the last seven years. Unlike some of the others, he also has a team with no serious overall challengers, so they are all dedicated to just the one goal (things like Hincapie winning on Sunday don't ever happen). CSC, for example, has not just Ivan Basso, but Bobby Julich - and maybe even Zabriskie before he got hurt. T Mobile has Ullrich, but also Vinokourov, both serious challengers for the overall title. If you had a chance to watch the team time trial earlier this year or in past years, watching Postal Service/Discovery compared to the other teams is really amazing; they ride in absolutely perfect coordination.
I always laugh at someone like Jason Whitlock, who says what Lance is doing isn't all that impressive. Like he could even ride one mile (granted he was a good football player, so different body type and all). They always say, "Oh, everyone knows how to ride a bike." That's like saying Carl Lewis isn't impressive because everyone can run. Or Michael Jordan isn't impressive because everyone knows how to bounce a ball and throw it through a hoop.
Just like Michael needed Scottie, or Lewis needed his team in relay races, Lance needs his team, but he is a singular, once in a generation (at best) athlete. Anyone who has any doubts about that can just ask Jan Ullrich. He was good enough to win the tour when Lance wasn't around, but he gets smoked by Armstrong every single year.
Wow, that was long. Oh well. Sorry. Guess I just like watching the tour a lot.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Jul 18, 2005 14:18:31 GMT -5
Yet this man thinks baseball is boring.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jul 18, 2005 14:40:43 GMT -5
Thanks Boz. Really great breakdown. I totally agree about Lance being a once in a lifetime athlete.
My point about teams was more about cycling in general and their role in the sport. Your info definitely made a lot of sense.
You are certainly a man of contridictions. Bicycles and hockey...fascinating.
Well, I'm certainly enjoying the Tour...
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jul 18, 2005 15:09:07 GMT -5
Yet this man thinks baseball is boring. Well played, Jack. Cycling is definitely the exception for me. No one else I know watches it, and I acknowledge how boring it must be for some people. I think it's probably based in part on my own struggles to go even 20 miles or so on a bike, and recognizing how inhumanly difficult it is to do what these guys do for 21 days in a row. I rode a 100k once, and I did a tour of 300 miles or so over several days up in Nova Scotia. I was dying. And I'm in even worse shape now. Still, being on a bike is a thrill, a thrill I never got from being on a baseball diamond (maybe cause I sucked so much I never got out of Little League). Also, bike riders and hockey players are known to play/ride through things as serious as broken bones. Baseball players often go on the D.L. with ingrown hairs or sprained eyelids.
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Jul 18, 2005 15:16:52 GMT -5
This got me thinking...and this isn't in any way meant to take away from Lance's accomplishments...but it seems that the team aspect of cycling is routinely ignored or underplayed. While the leader of the team has to be an incredible athlete and actually win the race...his team provides him with moral support, pacing, protection, drafting, etc...all designed to keep the contender within shot of the big prize. I would assume a good team can make a great cyclist into an unbeatable one and a bad team can hinder even a good cyclist. Of course, Lance seemed to almost transcend this rule a week ago when his team fell far behind, leaving him exposed during the first climbing stage...Lance still managed to keep with the leaders, but had to do it alone. Was that an even bigger deal than people are making it out to be? I don't really know much about cycling. Anyone with any knowledge or experience wish to comment? I'd love to learn more. I think the team does matter a great deal - but you have to consider that Lance really does transcend that - no year that he has won the Tour de France has his teams (either USPS or Discovery) come in first. His challengers (Basso and Ulrich) have STACKED teams (CSC and T-Mobile respectively) - Lance's teams tend to have one other good rider (most rencently George Hincappe) and a bunch of utility men. He is, however, the exception to the rule about the importance of the team.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jul 18, 2005 23:15:48 GMT -5
Ok, Boz, so how in heck does someone reel a rider back to the pack. I watch a few tivo'd legs of the race every year, but no seems to explain it. Someone gets out in front -- how does a teammate of Armstrong's reel him back, like they say?
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jul 19, 2005 12:32:25 GMT -5
An LA Times article the other day referred to Jan Ulrich as Lance's nemesis. Huh? Shouldn't it have been the other way around? With all due respect to Ulrich, who is obviously a fine cyclist, he's as much Lance's nemesis as the fly is the nemesis of the horse's behind.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jul 19, 2005 12:57:23 GMT -5
Me and my friend were joking the other day over beers that Ulrich must hate Lance. I mean, without Lance, Ulrich would have 2-3 Tour victories under his belt...easily, maybe more. But noooooo, Lance had to survive cancer. Anyways, we sure laughed about it.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jul 20, 2005 8:31:38 GMT -5
Ok, Boz, so how in heck does someone reel a rider back to the pack. I watch a few tivo'd legs of the race every year, but no seems to explain it. Someone gets out in front -- how does a teammate of Armstrong's reel him back, like they say? Reeling someone in doesn't really mean much more than chasing a rider or group of riders down. The basic premise is that the more riders working together, the higher speed they can maintain over distance. So, when a rider breaks away, they will be going faster than the large group for a stretch, but that is difficult to maintain, and gradually, the larger group will catch them, being able to keep a consistently high speed over many miles. When breakaways happen, it is usually a small group, or even a single rider. It is up to larger groups, teams, or even the entire peleton to decide whether to let the chase go, or to "reel it in." Unless a breakaway is very well timed, not a threat, or initiated near the end of a race, it doesn't stand much of a chance of staying ahead of a larger pack of riders for a long period of time. The exception to this is in the mountains, where large groups don't have as much of the same type of advantage over small groups or single riders (top speeds on steep climbs are often under 10 mph). Anyway, usually the term applies to a large group chasing down a smaller group. I suppose they can use it in referring to a single rider chasing another single rider, but really all it means is that whoever is behind is maintaining a higher speed than whoever is in front. It doesn't have anything to do with hindering the speed of the breakaway, though that is certainly a tactic that can be used. Sometimes in a breakaway, a team will send one of its riders along to try to make sure the breakaway doesn't go too fast. This is accomplished by blocking, or deliberately riding slightly slower as part of the breakaway. For instance, Armstrong might send Hincapie out into a breakaway to block it. The breakaway group will take turns with who is riding in front, to conserve energy, with everyone drafting off the lead rider. When it's Hincapie's turn to take the lead he will ride just a bit slower. The breakaway is free to discard him if they like, and they might if he hinders them too much. But, they just as likely to keep him along to share the burden, even though he's slowing them down somewhat.
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Jul 23, 2005 0:22:48 GMT -5
Ok Boz - Lance is now ahead by over 2:30 with very few stages left. Is there any conceivable way he can lose now?
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jul 25, 2005 10:00:19 GMT -5
At this point, I would say no. There is no conceivable way he can lose.
;D ;D ;D
Sorry, I missed this until after it was over. But no, once they left the mountains, there was no chance for him to lose.
Obviously, he could have crashed, but unless his crash was a debilitating one, even that wouldn't have stopped him. None of his closest rivals would ahve pressed the advantage due to a crash. Tour riders don't do that. When someone crashes, especially the leader, it is an unwritten rule that they will wait for him to catch up. Lance himself has done this too.
Keep in mind, this was some 80+ hours on the bikes for the leaders and Lance's margin was only 4 minutes at the end. That shows how difficult it is to gain an advantage over world-class riders. Making up that much time on flat stages with only a couple left is virtually impossible.
It also helped that the last real stage was a time trial, and only Jan Ullrich has beaten Lance at a time trial that he needed to win. And that only by a small margin.
Anyway, here's to the man who is, in my opinion, the greatest pure athlete of our generation. People like Jordan, Gretzky and Tiger have amazing skills to be sure and are incredible athletes to boot, but I'm not sure there's been a better athlete in my lifetime.
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Jul 25, 2005 16:51:33 GMT -5
Who is a greater athelete - a decathelete or a cyclist?
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jul 25, 2005 18:31:36 GMT -5
Who is a greater athelete - a decathelete or a cyclist? What's your definition of athlete? I also think it is questionable to dock Lance simply because he chose one sport -- he might have been a fine javelin thrower. To me, the fact that cycling requires substantially less Skill than other sports speaks to a greater importance of athleticism, but I think it is fair to divide up athleticism into different categories -- aerobic sports are much different than strength sports or sprint-style sports. Taking aside Lance, who a better athlete -- Justin Gatlin or the guy who won the marathon. I'm not asking which is harder, just who is the better athlete.
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nychoya3
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Post by nychoya3 on Jul 25, 2005 19:20:39 GMT -5
This is most hopeless argument ever, because there are so many different ways to define an athlete. Endurance is the key to being a great runner or cyclist, whereas explosiveness is the main characteristic of a Justin Gatlin or Michael Jordan. Two very different skills. I'm partial to decathletes, but it's worth noting that the pool of people who try their hand in the decathalon is pretty small. I'm sure tons of incredibly talented people have gravitated towards more notable and lucrative endeavors. Basketball and football, however, really attract the best of the best because the opportunities are so great there.
I watched a show on Discovery Channel that imparted lots of info on how incredible Lance is - doing triathalons at 14, resting heart rate of 32 beats a minute, heart 50% bigger than normal - but it didn't really tell me if that's distinct from the other elite cyclists. It's obvious that Lance is a freak, but all these top level marathoners or cyclists or milers are freaks in terms of endurance. Maybe what sets Lance apart is the monomaniacal dedication, but I suspect that's another neccessary trait. Two other differences that I suspect matter a lot: 1) Lance lost some weight from the chemo on his upper body that never came back. Dropping 10 pounds that isn't helping you haul your butt up the Alps makes a big difference. 2) His team really seemed to be leading the way on the technology stuff - on the margins, that makes a difference.
Lance has the most inspiring and simply unbelievable story of any athlete ever. He certainly belongs in the conversation, but I'm not ready to say he's the best ever.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Jul 25, 2005 19:30:06 GMT -5
Fascinating thread; sorry I just stumbled in on it now that the TDF (or Tour de Lance) is over. We don't get OLN, but a colleague tapes each stage and gives it to me in the morning. Now that it is over, the rest of the summer is pretty boring (if you think cycling is boring to watch, you should watch my current participatory sport of racewalking). Boz, you are exactly right in your comments. The only thing that I might take exception is that the winner of the TDF should be a good time trialer. Rasmussen was great in the mountains, but see how he fell apart on the last time trial. He had some bad luck, but even if he had stayed on his bike, Ullrick would probably have beaten him by about a minute overall.
There is a constant argument on some of the running boards about how good a marathoner Lance would be. And what kind of a mile he could run. All speculation. What we have is just one hell of an athlete and competitor!
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jul 25, 2005 20:36:55 GMT -5
There's an excellent online chat posted with the Post's Sally Jenkins discussing Armstrong and the amazing physical endurance which sets him apart. Example: get on a bicycle and get your heart rate to 140 beats/min. How long can you last, 5 or ten minutes? Armstrong can go 3-5 hours at 140 beats a minute. Sally suggests that if Armstrong ran for political office in Texas, "I don't know how electable he'd be in Texas at the moment." Sally needs to spend a little more time in her home state--he has tremendous bipartisan support here. www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2005/07/22/DI2005072201396.html
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2005 21:24:21 GMT -5
With Lance ending his career, American's officially bid adieu to the Tour de France. May it die a slow, painless death. Without Lance, what reason does the average sports fan have to watch (other than spectacular crashes)?
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