Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Sept 30, 2005 10:52:29 GMT -5
David Ortiz is not the MVP. Alex Rodriguez is. I realize that Ortiz has been coming up with huge hits all season. Alex Rodriguez has, too. That Ortiz HRs come in later innings is meaningless to me - A-Rod hitting them early, it can be argued, helps rattle an opposing pitcher. He tied the game on Wednesday vs the Orioles as Daniel Cabrera was shutting us down with a solo shot in the 6th. No one made a big deal. Why? B/c it happened before the 7th inning? C'mon. A-Rod has a higher batting average, slugging percentage [barely], higher OBP and OPS. He's stolen 20 bases. He's scored more runs. Dead heat in HRs. He has 20+ less RBIs...but i can attest to the fact that he plays 3rd and has saved at least 10 runs there with his glove. Is a run saved worth as much as a run batted in? Absolutely, in my book. If Ortiz was Barry Bonds 02, where his numbers were so much better than the runner up, i'd say give it to him. But he is a DH with better numbers only in the RBI category. Take either away and their teams struggle - saying Ortiz means more to the Sox than A-Rod to the Yanks is asinine - take away those bats and who is replacing those numbers? All the respect in the world for Papi and those numbers, but A-Rod is your AL MVP. WOW!!. Can we swap David Ortiz for Tim Wakefield in this love-fest. He is the MVP. I don't know if he'll win it, but I've never seen anything like this. Everytime he comes up late in the game in a clutch situation, I expect him to deliver. Unbelievable victory tonight. I was so down through the first few innings - it is quite a testiment to this team to come back and get the win. The Sox made the playoffs - which start tomorrow.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Sept 30, 2005 11:40:38 GMT -5
A-Rod gets no votes here. He is no leader. He is a ghost in the locker room. He is a piece of cardboard.
Ortiz is quite simply the heart and soul of the Red Sox and you would be hard pressed to say that anyone is more valuable to his team or the league. I honestly believe that if you subtract ARod from the Yanks, they still end up here. They would have plugged another superstar into his slot. I don't know who, but someone. However, you can not make a similar argument for Ortiz. Under no circumstances are the Red Sox the same team without him. Think about it, how much of baseball's budding revival and recovery from the steriod scandal is due to that loveable dominican, his jovial smile, gregarious nature and timely swings?
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Bahstin
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Post by Bahstin on Sept 30, 2005 12:31:00 GMT -5
When the final margin is 1-2 (includes all extra inning games), Papi has an OPS of 1.119. A-Rod's is 0.810. In games decided by 3-5, Papi is 0.974, A-Rod's is 1.046. In games decided by 6+, Papi is 0.835, A-Rod is 1.295.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Sept 30, 2005 12:41:48 GMT -5
Mariano Rivera should have won MVP of the league for the past ten years if "irreplacability" is what you are going to build your argument on. Take him away from the Yankees, and I am not sure we win any of the championships the past decade, let alone four. The fact that the only players in the league that have numbers comparable to A-Rod are Ortiz, Hafner, Teixera, and Albert Pujols puts your "they'd have plugged in another slugger" argument to bed. A-Rod absolutely fills the box score. The only 3rd baseman close to his production level is Eric Chavez - and it's not really that close. There is, however, a DH you could swap in for Ortiz - Travis Hafner. If you prorate his current statistics over 120 more at bats [he has 474 to Ortiz's 583] he'd be just about on par with Ortiz's numbers. He currently leads Ortiz in BA, OBP, OPS, Slugging, etc. Mark Teixera's numbers are nearly identical. Ortiz wouldn't even be the best first baseman, far and away, if he played there every day. you can talk all day about intangible and leadership and all that - derek jeter isn't winning the MVP anytime soon. neither is Mariano Rivera. neither is that little midget you guys had in the locker room last season. if you are voting on best player in the league, it's A-Rod. he has been the best player in the league. not just the best HITTER. best PLAYER. and let's not go calling ortiz the messiah of baseball just yet. a crappy hitter in minnesota becoming an MVP candidate overnight is suspect. yeah, i said it! A-Rod gets no votes here. He is no leader. He is a ghost in the locker room. He is a piece of cardboard. Ortiz is quite simply the heart and soul of the Red Sox and you would be hard pressed to say that anyone is more valuable to his team or the league. I honestly believe that if you subtract ARod from the Yanks, they still end up here. They would have plugged another superstar into his slot. I don't know who, but someone. However, you can not make a similar argument for Ortiz. Under no circumstances are the Red Sox the same team without him. Think about it, how much of baseball's budding revival and recovery from the steriod scandal is due to that loveable dominican, his jovial smile, gregarious nature and timely swings?
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Sept 30, 2005 12:43:09 GMT -5
How many games were decided by 1 or 2? what is the Sox W-L record in those games? Just curious on sample size and outcome. When the final margin is 1-2 (includes all extra inning games), Papi has an OPS of 1.119. A-Rod's is 0.810. In games decided by 3-5, Papi is 0.974, A-Rod's is 1.046. In games decided by 6+, Papi is 0.835, A-Rod is 1.295.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Sept 30, 2005 12:47:28 GMT -5
Mariano Rivera should have won MVP of the league for the past ten years if "irreplacability" is what you are going to build your argument on. Take him away from the Yankees, and I am not sure we win any of the championships the past decade, let alone four. The fact that the only players in the league that have numbers comparable to A-Rod are Ortiz, Hafner, Teixera, and Albert Pujols puts your "they'd have plugged in another slugger" argument to bed. A-Rod absolutely fills the box score. The only 3rd baseman close to his production level is Eric Chavez - and it's not really that close. There is, however, a DH you could swap in for Ortiz - Travis Hafner. If you prorate his current statistics over 120 more at bats [he has 474 to Ortiz's 583] he'd be just about on par with Ortiz's numbers. He currently leads Ortiz in BA, OBP, OPS, Slugging, etc. Mark Teixera's numbers are nearly identical. Ortiz wouldn't even be the best first baseman, far and away, if he played there every day. you can talk all day about intangible and leadership and all that - derek jeter isn't winning the MVP anytime soon. neither is Mariano Rivera. neither is that little midget you guys had in the locker room last season. if you are voting on best player in the league, it's A-Rod. he has been the best player in the league. not just the best HITTER. best PLAYER. and let's not go calling ortiz the messiah of baseball just yet. a crappy hitter in minnesota becoming an MVP candidate overnight is suspect. yeah, i said it! Have you seen what the Twins do w/ hitters and power hitters specifically? Case #1 is Justin Morneau--19 bombs in half a year last year, then 21 this year. Guzman was turned into a guy who hit tons of triples to one that pounded the ball into the turf. No hitter has improved/lived up to their minor league hype in MN in a long time. Ortiz improved b/c he got out from under the "tutelage" of Gardenhire and Scotty Ulger and went to a place where they don't ruin power hitters. If the Twins could develop a hitter like they can pitchers, they'd have won the AL Central again this year.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Sept 30, 2005 16:13:34 GMT -5
Taken from what i consider to be best baseball column on the internet, the pinstriped blog - before the "homer" - this guy has killed the yankees all year for their moves and terrible offseason. He says it better than i could, so here it is:
A-ROD VS. PAPI Last night's game-saving hit didn't win the MVP award for Ortiz; chances are he already had it — the guy who leads in RBIs and is therefore more "clutch" than the competition wins a disproportionate amount of the time.
It's not difficult to know how to weigh Ortiz's superior emergency hitting in rating the two players. It's just one more factor that has to be thrown into the mix. Ortiz has hit better in the clutch. Rodriguez has hit better overall, and in a more difficult environment. Rodriguez is the superior baserunner and the superior defender. Ortiz is, insofar as we know, the superior leadership guy.
"Leadership" may or may not generate more wins than just hitting and fielding well. Sportswriters assume they do, because back in the caveman days sportswriters decided that sports were about character rather than ability. If that were the case, Terrell Owens wouldn't be a multi-millionaire, but it never stops anyone from writing it anyway. The question is, does a team with all the talent of the Red Sox win even one extra game because they feel good about being around David Ortiz? Maybe. Maybe one. Not five. Not 10. Maybe feeling good about going to work is worth a game in the standings.
Note, though, that the guy who supposedly lacks character is on the Yankees, and the Yankees are a game ahead. See, we don't know for certain that being cheerful wins any extra games, but we're positive that hitting and fielding wins bunches of them. Something amorphous is being used to pump up Ortiz at the expense of the concrete things that Rodriguez has accomplished. Ortiz has to get up even first before we go to intangibles. The other way around is to disregard the objective for the subjective. The voters are sportswriters, not mystical interpreters, and shouldn't anoint themselves as such.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Sept 30, 2005 23:26:36 GMT -5
As an admitted A-Rod detractor and Yankee fan, I think this MVP debate is focusing on the wrong players--I think Ortiz is worthy of MVP as a DH and if I'm Yankees I'd promote Rivera for MVP over A-Rod. I agree with any non-Yankee fan who says A-Rod does a lot when it doesn't matter. I can't tell how you how many times the bases are loaded and NY needs an insurance run up by 1/2 runs and this guy K's or doesn't get the run in, but if NY is up by 4 or more, it's a guaranteed hit. His defense gets worse too when the games are bigger--for an accomplished player and one considered as one of the top 5 players in Baseball by pundits, he has terrible technique fielding a ball--he reaches for the ball instead of smoothly fielding it. Everything he does defensively looks mechanical and awkward.
I also agree if you take Ortiz off the Red Sox they would finish behind Toronto and Baltimore and if you take A-Rod off the Yankees, they'd finish around the same place. What's different about having him and not Soriano in the Standings? With Soriano the Yankees actually MADE the World Series 2 times too.
To me the fact Rivera isn't up for MVP is a tragedy. Not saying he should win it, but he should be considered before any Yankee and especially Alex Rodriguez. To sum up A Rod is simple--expect him to get no hits this weekend unless Yankees are eliminated from Playoff Contention--then he'll go 5-5 with 3 HRs', that's just what he does and what he's about. I'd rather have Ruben Sierra up in a close game and trailing then A-Rod and also rather see Matsui, Sheffield, and Jeter too--despite his struggles this year, he'd at least put it in play.
Championship Teams are strong up the middle and with Berned OUT in CF, Can't Catch Posada behind the plate (honestly how many balls does this guy drop during a damn game??) dragging down two average middle infielders Yankees aren't going anywhere if they luck out and make the Playoffs, which I highly doubt happens at this time. Just call it the A-Rod led Yanks--big talk, big money, and little heart or guts when it matters.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Oct 1, 2005 10:44:35 GMT -5
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Oct 1, 2005 15:30:46 GMT -5
you can have the MVP award. we'll take the division. if you guys don't make it, maybe the MVP award will keep you warm during the winter. you can admire it on your shelf while watching us on TV.
a-rod's still your mvp. but at this point, it's moot.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Oct 1, 2005 18:20:28 GMT -5
RDF your baseball opinion has been rendered meaningless for all of eternity with your claim that having Soriano instead of A-Rod would have no impact on the Yankees record. especially after you went on a tangent about how bad A-Rod's defensive technique is - Sori is surely a gold glover. and he was amazingly clutch in the 2003 world series. do you remember A-rod saving the yankees from a 2-0 deficits vs the twins with a walk off double, and then absolutely killing the ball in games 1 thru 4 of the ALCS? had rivera closed out game 4, he'd have been ALCS MVP as he'd have comparable numbers to Sheff and Matsui AND the series winning hit [home run over the monster]. the entire team stopped hitting after that game, and A-Rod has somehow become the whipping boy. it's nauseating to hear yankee fans complain about this team b/c of their lack of "heart". they started 11 and 19 and won the division, overcoming a 4.5 game lead vs a team that has to be in their heads from last season's collapse. the "all stars" we brought in [pavano, wright, womack] sucked and the likes of Robinson Cano, Aaron Small, Shawn Chacon, and Chien Ming Wang have saved the day. Tino Martinez came back and carried us for a month. Jason Giambi did the same. But there have been two constants on the Yankees all season - Alex Rodriguez and Mariano Rivera. And since Rivera isn't winning MVP, A-Rod should. the only player in baseball you could have swapped in for A-rod on the yanks and have a minimal difference in the standings is named Albert Pujols. he should win NL MVP, despite andruw jones being more "clutch". anyway, onto Fenway tomorrow, i'm glad we clinched today, makes for a very stress free trip. Torre hinted we'd start Wright and rest our starters, so the Sox should clinch the WC tomorrow. i just bought seats to ALCS game 7 on yankees.com - perhaps we'll be doing it again this year. As an admitted A-Rod detractor and Yankee fan, I think this MVP debate is focusing on the wrong players--I think Ortiz is worthy of MVP as a DH and if I'm Yankees I'd promote Rivera for MVP over A-Rod. I agree with any non-Yankee fan who says A-Rod does a lot when it doesn't matter. I can't tell how you how many times the bases are loaded and NY needs an insurance run up by 1/2 runs and this guy K's or doesn't get the run in, but if NY is up by 4 or more, it's a guaranteed hit. His defense gets worse too when the games are bigger--for an accomplished player and one considered as one of the top 5 players in Baseball by pundits, he has terrible technique fielding a ball--he reaches for the ball instead of smoothly fielding it. Everything he does defensively looks mechanical and awkward. I also agree if you take Ortiz off the Red Sox they would finish behind Toronto and Baltimore and if you take A-Rod off the Yankees, they'd finish around the same place. What's different about having him and not Soriano in the Standings? With Soriano the Yankees actually MADE the World Series 2 times too. To me the fact Rivera isn't up for MVP is a tragedy. Not saying he should win it, but he should be considered before any Yankee and especially Alex Rodriguez. To sum up A Rod is simple--expect him to get no hits this weekend unless Yankees are eliminated from Playoff Contention--then he'll go 5-5 with 3 HRs', that's just what he does and what he's about. I'd rather have Ruben Sierra up in a close game and trailing then A-Rod and also rather see Matsui, Sheffield, and Jeter too--despite his struggles this year, he'd at least put it in play. Championship Teams are strong up the middle and with Berned OUT in CF, Can't Catch Posada behind the plate (honestly how many balls does this guy drop during a damn game??) dragging down two average middle infielders Yankees aren't going anywhere if they luck out and make the Playoffs, which I highly doubt happens at this time. Just call it the A-Rod led Yanks--big talk, big money, and little heart or guts when it matters.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Oct 1, 2005 21:43:36 GMT -5
we'll take the division. .... you can admire it on your shelf while watching us on TV. Exactly which pinstripe uniform number are you wearing, so I can pick you out on the field tomorrow? ...just recall how far the Division winner got last year...
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Oct 2, 2005 1:24:40 GMT -5
DMcQ the Yankees wear solid gray uniforms on the road. Duh a Division winner hasn't won the world series since 2001. i'm well aware. the 5 game format of the first round is BS, i think we can all agree on that. once that inevitably goes into effect, you'll see very few Wild cards winning it all. off to bed so i can catch an 8am bus...i can't believe i am traveling 4+ hrs each way to see jaret wright pitch. we'll take the division. .... you can admire it on your shelf while watching us on TV. Exactly which pinstripe uniform number are you wearing, so I can pick you out on the field tomorrow? ...just recall how far the Division winner got last year...
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Oct 2, 2005 3:08:19 GMT -5
Leaving aside the Yankee v Red Sox issues for the moment, does any true baseball fan believe that if a DH and an everyday in-the-field player (especially a perennial gold glove winner) have essentially comparable offensive numbers, that the DH should win the MVP? Does that make any sense at all?
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Oct 2, 2005 10:05:05 GMT -5
Leaving aside the Yankee v Red Sox issues for the moment, does any true baseball fan believe that if a DH and an everyday in-the-field player (especially a perennial gold glove winner) have essentially comparable offensive numbers, that the DH should win the MVP? Does that make any sense at all? Yes it does make sense - but the DH would have to have other factors such as clubhouse / bench presence - similar to what Jackie MacMullan describes in the article I linked above that CLEARLY outweighed the other player's attributes.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Oct 2, 2005 10:13:20 GMT -5
DMcQ the Yankees wear solid gray uniforms on the road. Duh a Division winner hasn't won the world series since 2001. i'm well aware. the 5 game format of the first round is BS, i think we can all agree on that. once that inevitably goes into effect, you'll see very few Wild cards winning it all. off to bed so i can catch an 8am bus...i can't believe i am traveling 4+ hrs each way to see jaret wright pitch. Exactly which pinstripe uniform number are you wearing, so I can pick you out on the field tomorrow? ...just recall how far the Division winner got last year... Borat - my Dad is a Yonkers native who is the biggest Yankee fan around. I'm well aware of the road greys Hope today's a good game for you, but Torre may have already thrown in the towel by starting Wright or - wait a minute - that would have been by starting Moose, wouldn't it?
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Oct 2, 2005 15:07:54 GMT -5
Looks like the Sox have made the playoffs. Hopefully Francona will pull Schilling soon.
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