Trust the Administration

[PDRHoya99]

dfw said:

hoyagsb99 said:

So by my calculations roughly 70% does not come from alumni donations correct? I know I did that math fast there, hope you weren't in SFS. Seems like 70% is a pretty sizeable chunk of cash to drop on a program each year. According to the department of education, we spent $461,934 on football last year, meaning Alums provided $139k in funding, and the school kicked in $323k. Again, three hundred thousand dollars per year seems like a significant spend to me, and given that it represents 8% of our athletic budget, is certainly a significant amount of support. (for more data, you can check out the DOE site here: ope.ed.gov/athletics/main.asp)

It also has the third highest budget for any sports team (getting just nosed out by track, which supports 70% more athletes and operates nearly year round. Given that football has the largest male alumni class every year, do your stats hold up when it comes to per capita giving?

Right source, wrong numbers.

The budget is based on overall expenses of $1.6 million, not the operating expenses of $461,934. The difference is in coaching salaries (well below the rest of the league) and financial aid equivalencies (aka "scholarships" in the non-PL and Ivy world) which are as few as one third of a school like Fordham. Imagine playing Big East basketball with four scholarships and nine walk-ons while the rest of the league has 13--that's why the team is sitting at 2-9 entering this season.

Within GU, the football budget certainly trails men's basketball (which raised $857K in FY 2006 towards expenses of $4.9 million per the GUHoyas.com web site) and women's basketball (which raised $11,777 in FY 2006 towards the budget of $1.5 million). Track is probably ahead, but I'm not sure.

Ro's points above were 100% correct. And as for this whole "sailing does more than football" argument, remember that sailing is not an NCAA sport and exists on a non-scholarship model of sorts. Football does not and needs to step up its fundraising top to bottom. But I give FB alumni credit for stepping up and letting the administration know they're putting their dollars on the table. What about the basketball constituency, esp. the former players?

www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/backpage/roundtable_080607.htm

I'm missing your point here DFW, so instead of the $300k I stated the school spent on football you're saying the school spends $1.1MM on football (70% of 1.6). Now I feel even less sympathy, since I'm guessing that pushes the program far beyond what we spend on most every other sport. While it is impressive that football alumni put up 500k/year to keep the program going, given that they graduate the most male alumni each year, I'm guessing they should have the largest alumni donations. This isn't meant to be sexist, I'm guessing due to workforce demographics that men tend to donate more money to their alma maters than women.

Do we spend more on basketball -- certainly. But I think most on this board would agree our spend on men's basketball is justified given the amount of excitement it generates for the school. I won't touch the debate about women's hoops, as I've stated previously many times that we are throwing money away by trying to fully fund that program.

[DFW HOYA]

hoyagsb99 said:

I'm missing your point here DFW, so instead of the $300k I stated the school spent on football you're saying the school spends $1.1MM on football (70% of 1.6). Now I feel even less sympathy, since I'm guessing that pushes the program far beyond what we spend on most every other sport.

No, it doesn't--the earlier psot still said it trailed men's and women's basketball and (probably) men's and women's track.

Here's the issue--I'm not comparing Georgetown to Notre Dame or Syracuse or even Villanova and Richmond. Look at these "nonscholarship" budgets below:

Fordham: $3.9 million
Colgate: $3.4 million
Lehigh: $3.2 million
Holy Cross: $3.2 million
Lafayette: $3.2 million
Bucknell: $2.6 million
Georgetown: $1.6 million

That's the challenge, and there's still a lot to go.

[sleepy]

Is the school still paying Eshrick for the extension they gave him the week before he was fired? Or did that contract run out already?

[Dhall]

How many people other than friends and families of football players attend GU football games? Like any other business or organization, the school should focus its limited resources on things that it does well and where there is a market and an opportunity to excel. Not sure GU football meets those criteria.

[Ro]

Using Dhall's rationale we should only have a handful of sports teams. Men's hoops, mens' and women's track, men's lacrosse...are there any other that we consistently do "well and where there is a market and an opportunity to excel"? How many teams exactly fit that definition? Sorry, forgot sailing.

If you're going to come after football for having a losing record, let's take a look at every other sport on campus. When was the last time the baseball team had 1) a winning season, or 2) a crowd at one of their games? I think it's an absolute shame that they were moved off campus, but if a home game is going on hours away from the school is it really going on? I think football has become an easy target here, considering that there are plenty of other programs which struggle each year. If we're going to open this up to a results based determination of resource allocation then the entire athletic department should be discussed. Not just the football team who has struggled over the past 7 seasons, after going 39-11 in the 5 previous season's.

[Ro]

Also...SF I wasn't coming at you personally about Big East tickets or the other things I mentioned. I was trying to point out that during the season I saw many a complaint on the board from many people but none that I would directly atribute to you. I feel that if all of the energy used on this message board was put together in a positive way that we would be able to do something extremely helpful and meaningful for the program. If you felt personally attacked, I apologize and think that you need to turn the volume on your sensitivty meter a bit.

[Dhall]

ro said:

Using Dhall's rationale we should only have a handful of sports teams. Men's hoops, mens' and women's track, men's lacrosse...are there any other that we consistently do "well and where there is a market and an opportunity to excel"? How many teams exactly fit that definition? Sorry, forgot sailing.

If you're going to come after football for having a losing record, let's take a look at every other sport on campus. When was the last time the baseball team had 1) a winning season, or 2) a crowd at one of their games? I think it's an absolute shame that they were moved off campus, but if a home game is going on hours away from the school is it really going on? I think football has become an easy target here, considering that there are plenty of other programs which struggle each year. If we're going to open this up to a results based determination of resource allocation then the entire athletic department should be discussed. Not just the football team who has struggled over the past 7 seasons, after going 39-11 in the 5 previous season's.

I don't want to eliminate any sports at all, but if the issue with JTIII's contract is that we are a couple hundred thousand dollars a year short on the ability to pay him, then yes I think we should look at all sports and their contributions and make cuts. Football seems like an easy target because it is expensive, the Patriot League is not a serious national football league (unlike Big East anything, including baseball) and there is no equivalent women's team so there are gender equity issues as well.

If we get 1500 Hoyas fans a year to attend 5-6 home football games and absolutely no media coverage or real revenue from the football program, then it seems like those dollars are not well spent relative to paying the basketball coach. The same can probably hold true for other sports, but I think the equation could be worst for football.

You obviously care about the football program and that is great, but this is the basketball message board and if there is a money problem facing the elite basketball program, then you shouldn't be surprised that basketball fans are looking at the football program as a way to fill the gap.

And how could you forget the Women's Field Hockey team as one of the top programs!

[ColumbiaHeightsHoya]

You guys are morons. Sports aren't measured by profitability otherwise they wouldn't exist. I would argue that football is important along with many other sports such as every woman's sport, tennis, soccer, etc. It is about the college experience, school spirit, and bringing in different types of people so you have a diverse student base. We aren't dropping these programs so it is a stupid argument.

We need to race more cash and part of that has to do with putting the money out there to build the program back up in the first place. Get JTIII paid and let's see that debt rating go down further, ah yeah!!

[Dhall]

mivcevich said:

You guys are morons. Sports aren't measured by profitability otherwise they wouldn't exist. I would argue that football is important along with many other sports such as every woman's sport, tennis, soccer, etc. It is about the college experience, school spirit, and bringing in different types of people so you have a diverse student base. We aren't dropping these programs so it is a stupid argument.

We need to race more cash and part of that has to do with putting the money out there to build the program back up in the first place. Get JTIII paid and let's see that debt rating go down further, ah yeah!!

Nobody is talking about profitability - it is about spending the money that's available most efficiently. If you think that all of a sudden you can raise significantly more money than has been raised in the past by asking run-of-the-mill fans for it, you are the moron. It's been shown that people make their charitable contributions on a relatively consistent basis with blips here and there up and down depending on their personal circumstances in a given year. Where we can raise more money is with a few one-time large gifts from the richest alumni and that is totally different than some idealistic grass-roots campaign - the AD and President and JTIII (and JTII if he wants) need to be knocking on doors to get the big gifts.

[theexorcist]

I hate these discussions.

First. Any removal or defunding of women's sports guarantees a lawsuit. It's a nonstarter.

Second. The Jesuits are big on the "sound mind in a sound body" idea. Athletics at the college level, on some plain, are designed for the growth of those participants. The usual comparison is with philosophy departments - they doesn't bring in research grants, but it's a good idea to have them.

Third. Two sports seem like obvious "why do we have them" questions. One is baseball. Baseball has a much higher travel budget, has no viable future for consistent medicority, plays off-campus, and makes minimal money from home games. At a certain point, after consistently missing the Big East tournament, I can see baseball getting cut.

The other is football. However, football has limited costs - five bus trips a year, albeit for a lot of people, and supportive alumni. Cutting football doesn't save a whole lot of money, and doesn't make a lot of sense.

This dynamic begins to change if the Patriot League allows scholarships. Now keeping up with the Joneses just got more expensive - especially since this switches the theory from "play to compete" to "play to win in the playoffs" and demands more money. Georgetown has too small a stadium and too weak a following to ever break even. If this happens, GU faces a crossroads - either spend money we don't have to compete, resign ourselves to being the Homecoming opponent four weeks a year, move to a less-competitive conference, or drop football. And the "less competitive conference" option becomes more and more difficult as more universities drop football.

[ExcitableBoy]

theexorcist said:

Cutting football doesn't save a whole lot of money, and doesn't make a lot of sense.

I thought football's budget was $1.6 million/year. How does cutting it not save a lot of money?? (I am not advocating doing so in any way/shape/form)

[strummer8526]

mivcevich said:

You guys are morons....We need to race more cash...

I'm in terrible shape, but maybe we can get a good relay team from people on Hoyatalk.

[TigerHoya]

theexorcist said:

I hate these discussions.

First. Any removal or defunding of women's sports guarantees a lawsuit. It's a nonstarter.

I'd change guarantees to risks but otherwise agree.

[theexorcist]

We need a HoyaTalk-sponsored carwash!

Where are people getting the numbers? I'd be particularly interested in the costs of other sports as well.

With that said, $1.6m doesn't buy you a whole lot. Yes, it can allow us to match any college basketball program for a coach's salary. But subtract from that alumni contributions and bad feeling from football getting vaporized. The long-term repercussions from such a decision don't seem significant.

And - as awful as football has been recently - it can succeed. Georgetown is academically superior to most (if not all) of the institutions in the Patriot, has a new facility, and dominated the MAAC (which was albeit a much weaker conference) previously.

I've attended a university (Delaware) that played I-AA successfully, and the success brings together the school - so it's not just SEC schools that makes football valuable. It is especially successful in bringing together freshmen and getting them to cheer for their school, which matters for basketball. Soccer and volleyball don't really do this - football's five or so home games makes it an event.

It's not going to be Michigan-Purdue in October, but it's a productive outlet. If Georgetown can become competitive, and attending games can become something other than an exercise in masochism, then it's reasonable to expect a few hundred freshmen at games, cheering for the Hoyas and learning the fight song.

That seems to be worth $1.6M a year.

[FormerHoya]

theexorcist said:

It's not going to be Michigan-Purdue in October, but it's a productive outlet.

Just curious, why did you pick those two schools? Big fan of the world's largest drum?

[SFHoya99]

I didn't mean to start a discussion of discontinuing football. I would never want to do that and would love for them to fully fund the sport.

My original comment would have been better phrased to say that I don't trust the admin to have the same priorities as me; or to see the potential benefits of a strong basketball program to the skill accurately. That's all.

As for all those clamoring for practical measures, please suggest. The HHC leadership seems willing to follow whatever McD's lead is without taking any sort of leadership role. Don't tock the boat feels like the motto. I'm not saying that's the wrong attitude -- it may be right for them. But if you feel otherwise, I'm not sure the HHC is going to be a helpful avenue.

[theexorcist]

I originally wrote Michigan-Ohio State, then decided that was too extreme. The next idea was Michigan-Indiana or Michigan-Illinois, but both of those would be thwackings. Michigan-Purdue seemed like a nondescript game with no *obvious* history behind it - what a game between a competitive Georgetown squad and Lafayette times could be, at about one twentieth the scale.

[town05]

sfhoya99 said:

Oooh, good to see you've gone with the childish arrogance slant. Love the smilies, too.

Thanks! ;D I'll try and work a few more in for you

sfhoya99 said:

What amazes me is that some "fans" on this message board are so lazy that they won't send off an email stating their preference to keep Thompson. In the time you wrote your condescending scribble, you could have made your priorities known to him, whatever they are.

Do you really think Gtown admin assumes the alumns and fans DON'T want JTIII around??? And they're saying, "Oh, let's not pay him since we haven't had enough email, postage, phone calls, etc. on the issue. I mean we have the money and there's no other issues... LIKE ENDOWMENT and facilities, not just athletic ones. Gee I haven't heard anything on it, so they must just hate having a good coach and will let his contract expire." That's normal, right. I'd assume there would be more press on this if a deal had not been reached, especially from Big John who was clearly politicking publicly for his son. ...They're just waiting to announce.

Perhaps if SFHo' and StPetesMoron weren't so aggressive in firing off uninformed smug insults at everyone, the assumption might be made that folks actually agree on most of these points, and maybe have shared views, which likely align with your "passion" for hoya hoops? But no, you seem to just ramble and miss the point, instead focusing on micro details that don't even matter, like removing links from a quote. "Condescending scribble" ?? The condescension FROM YOU must really be a turn off for most that would even consider posting here, much less read your banter. And as for sharing my thoughts and priorities with some of the top admin, I have... Both verbally and fiscally. But Assume away. You must be psychic since "you don't know jack about me" I almost fell out of my chair here in the office when I saw YOU put that in writing. Pot ... Kettle ... Black.

As a side note- I'm amazed at how much some of you rip on the school you chose and which grants/granted you credibility, or at least it did at some point. and then you ask for good access and to be heard? If you care so much, why the flurry of insults to various schools/programs/athletics/people? I think you caught that DC plague that makes everyone hate each other... SF, you aren't nearly as bad, but StPeters? You must have had no friends as a child. Sad, very sad. Someone should just take your keyboard away and make you go back to shouting from street corners and soap boxes. The birds might listen for a bit?

Ro's right, there's always whining on here. I've noticed mostly by repeat offenders... How about we just rid the board of arrogant Editeds. I know who tops my list. I'd almost take hifigator over some of you.


I think a deal was already reached, that's all I'm sayin'. "Don't trust the great press, or lack thereof" would be another suitable thread. -Or is that just a "Kentucky level" mentality? Whatever that means. Way to exhibit the typical entitled gtown A-hole stigma. So pleased to know there's enough of you out there that haven't outgrown this recent phenomena.


I guess you're just bored. Go ahead, Keep chasing your tail

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

town05 said:

sfhoya99 said:

Oooh, good to see you've gone with the childish arrogance slant. Love the smilies, too.

Thanks! ;D I'll try and work a few more in for you

sfhoya99 said:

What amazes me is that some "fans" on this message board are so lazy that they won't send off an email stating their preference to keep Thompson. In the time you wrote your condescending scribble, you could have made your priorities known to him, whatever they are.

Do you really think Gtown admin assumes the alumns and fans DON'T want JTIII around??? And they're saying, "Oh, let's not pay him since we haven't had enough email, postage, phone calls, etc. on the issue. I mean we have the money and there's no other issues... LIKE ENDOWMENT and facilities, not just athletic ones. Gee I haven't heard anything on it, so they must just hate having a good coach and will let his contract expire." That's normal, right. I'd assume there would be more press on this if a deal had not been reached, especially from Big John who was clearly politicking publicly for his son. ...They're just waiting to announce.

Perhaps if SFHo' and StPetesMoron weren't so aggressive in firing off uninformed smug insults at everyone, the assumption might be made that folks actually agree on most of these points, and maybe have shared views, which likely align with your "passion" for hoya hoops? But no, you seem to just ramble and miss the point, instead focusing on micro details that don't even matter, like removing links from a quote. "Condescending scribble" ?? The condescension FROM YOU must really be a turn off for most that would even consider posting here, much less read your banter. And as for sharing my thoughts and priorities with some of the top admin, I have... Both verbally and fiscally. But Assume away. You must be psychic since "you don't know jack about me" I almost fell out of my chair here in the office when I saw YOU put that in writing. Pot ... Kettle ... Black.

As a side note- I'm amazed at how much some of you rip on the school you chose and which grants/granted you credibility, or at least it did at some point. and then you ask for good access and to be heard? If you care so much, why the flurry of insults to various schools/programs/athletics/people? I think you caught that DC plague that makes everyone hate each other... SF, you aren't nearly as bad, but StPeters? You must have had no friends as a child. Sad, very sad. Someone should just take your keyboard away and make you go back to shouting from street corners and soap boxes. The birds might listen for a bit?

Ro's right, there's always whining on here. I've noticed mostly by repeat offenders... How about we just rid the board of arrogant Editeds. I know who tops my list. I'd almost take hifigator over some of you.


I think a deal was already reached, that's all I'm sayin'. "Don't trust the great press, or lack thereof" would be another suitable thread. -Or is that just a "Kentucky level" mentality? Whatever that means. Way to exhibit the typical entitled gtown A-hole stigma. So pleased to know there's enough of you out there that haven't outgrown this recent phenomena.


I guess you're just bored. Go ahead, Keep chasing your tail

You are too funny. I've dedicated a fair amount of my time as a student and a young alumnus to the basketball program. So I'll just leave that point aside because I know it isn't true. So I'm not going to take the bait on all of the personal insults you put in your post in lieu of standing by your original comments in the thread.

To my knowledge, I'm not insulting anyone from the administration in this thread - what I am saying is that it makes no sense for the school to sign the coach that has turned basketball into a revenue generating sport that can potentially help defray the costs of other athletics programs mentioned in this thread and then not announce it during a time that is sensitive for several revenue streams such as season tickets and advertising deals. Moreover, no matter what, it sends the wrong message when you have to delay announcing the extension of a contract for whatever reason - and that's not the message we want to send to the recruits that we are still waiting to sign a LOI or are trying to get verbals from. I don't think that's insulting anyone in the administration. Its just saying we don't have a contract yet - and when we have one it will probably be announced in a press release that is 90% written somewhere in McDonough and just waiting for someone to fill in the blanks.

I'm sorry I insulted you. If you haven't noticed this board can be that way. I didn't start calling you an Edited though. Grow some thicker skin and move on. If you need a hug, I'd be happy to oblige.

The Kentucky level argument comes from the fact that you are claiming through unsubstantiated rumor that III is either signed or nearly signed (that's not entirely clear from what you are saying) and that Gtown isn't going to announce that he is signed because we are waiting for a better time to do it. The very construction of that statement means that it can never be proved because there can never be an independent confirmation of it. I'm very suspicious of information coming from only one source on an internet message board that can never be confirmed. The Kentucky Basketball message boards are replete with such rumors. I think we owe more to the people who read this message board than posting those types of rumors.

[DanMcQ]

People: keep the discussion on the merits and leave the name calling ("arrogant Editeds" "morons" etc) out of your posts. You can easily disagree without taking it down a notch too far.