Trust the Administration

[strummer8526]

I am actually fairly certain that there are several people on Hoyatalk who could run certain University offices better than the people currently doing so. It baffles me that people are SO willing to put the value of their diploma in the hands of people who have never shown real administrative ability or long-term vision. I'm not talking about everyone at GU, obviously, but many are just bad at their jobs.

In the case of paying the basketball coach, pressure from a fan base could potentially matter. For everyone to just say "He'll get paid, by us" is naive.

[SoCalHoya]

After reading this, I'm depressed.

Ugh.

[hoyatables]

You know, it is also possible that our university was busy this summer with other priorities, both university-wide and within the athletic department. Things like facilities.

[SFHoya99]

hoyatables said:

You know, it is also possible that our university was busy this summer with other priorities, both university-wide and within the athletic department. Things like facilities.

That seems even more laughable. But I hope so.

Also, most can walk and chew gum at the same time.

[GIGAFAN99]

Quick, what are the four best years for applications before 2007?

Answer: 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2005

Since I like my facts convenient and my correlations spurious, I say hire Esherick back. The 'stache has it. After the powerful NIT rejection resonated with bookish government nerds everywhere and the incoming 2005 class saw the wrath of Matt Causey and a season-ending nine-game losing streak, they applied in droves. You just can't argue with oversimplification like this. It's too convincing to ignore.

Poke a hole in that logic. No wait, poke a hole in that logic and then try to prove your anecdotal evidence is any better.

Warning: The latter might be more difficult.

Seriously, sign JTIII because I love Hoya hoops and want to keep the Thompson tradition alive. I have absolutely ZERO higher reason for wanting this. Build facilities for partially the same reason (although a capital investment in a place where the entire student body can convene isn't a bad idea anyway).

Go Hoyas! I love basketball! We don't need reason and we don't need logic, 'cause we've got feeling and we're dang proud of it!

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

town05 said:

stpetersburghoya said:

Random press releases in the off season. That's right I forgot, everyone in McDonough goes on vacation when it's not basketball season. Must be a pretty sweet job. Let's review some "random press releases" that were issued during the off season:

Clearly all of these press releases were an abberation. I forgot the unwritten (they probably wanted to write the rule down, but it was probably the off season and they realized they couldn't) that we have to wait until the first lay up of midnight madness to learn who will be coaching our team the following year. Silly me.

In short, if you really want to have some impact, think before you speak.

Think before you write. None of those have to do with a financially burdened private university making the announcment that they're going to extend a huge contract and give us the details, while other programs (not just athletics) are also having issues. The timing is simply not there for a $$$ announcement. A better time will come. All I meant. I certainly agree that there's a serious downside to this if I'm wrong, but I'm not He'll get paid, by us.

Either way, I'm confident that you'll see this school isn't run by a bunch of idiots and you geniuses on HoyaTalk are not just so much more intelligent. ;D Oh, and I'm actually still at work right now, and it's not for Georgetown! Good one, SFHoya. (yawn) We need more intelligent responses from you...

Glad to get you all so riled up over something you're still just yapping about. It's a big deal, but with no news to shed public light on it, you're just running in circles. Patience

1. Thank you for butchering what I said in the quotation.

2. So let me follow you logic. Well logic is over-stating it a bit, but let's follow what you said. ;D Basketball is the only sport at Georgetown that comes close to being a revenue generating sport. There is a large increase in the amount of giving and season ticket sales due to the success of one coach in that program. Season ticket donations are due this Friday. Student season tickets are on sale in a couple of weeks. Now is the time for McDonough staff to be inking deals for companies endorsing Georgetown basketball. We all agree that one of the major reasons for the spike in giving and season tickets is that III is at Georgetown. ;D Since we are "financially burdened," we should wait until a better time than when donors have season ticket forms in their hands, a week before HB starts selling their season tickets, and when the Hoop Club and other support groups are finalizing their budgets for FY 2007-2008 to announce something that according to you is a done deal but we are keeping super secret for inexplicable reasons. ;D

3. In your butchering of my quote, you completely ignored my point about recruits. We are involved in major recruiting battles for at least two top 10 recruits. At least one of them is tailoring down his list in the next month. Like all recruits, they need to know that the University stands by its coach. ;D So to continue with your line of argument, we should just tell those recruits that while III may have a new contract the University is either so cash-strapped that it can't make it now or that it doesn't want to inform the general public that it wants to stand by him in the media - either way not the message you want to send to a major recruit. Why create more doubt in the mind of recruits and those who have signed LOIs?

4. No one is saying the school is run by idiots. But anyone who knows anything about PR know that if there is a major story about someone you represent, you want the story to come from you so that you can shape it. So what I am saying is that the people at the University aren't as idiotic as the actions that you are falsely ascribing to them would indicate.

5. The thread is mistitled - it should read "Trust town05." This is, in general, a Kentucky Message Board level argument. ;D Unprompted you post the following: "we've already signed III, we just don't want to tell anyone because of some amorphous reasons that I can't explain thoroughly and generally contradict all logic, but everything I'm saying is correct, eventhough I have constructed an argument that can never be verified." I expect more from the quality of "yapping" on HoyaTalk, I'm sorry.

[hoyatables]

sfhoya99 said:

hoyatables said:

You know, it is also possible that our university was busy this summer with other priorities, both university-wide and within the athletic department. Things like facilities.

That seems even more laughable. But I hope so.

Also, most can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I don't think it's laughable at all to hope that the University's focused on making the competitive improvements that we all know it needs.

We already know the University is planning its ambitious new Science Center. It's currently constructing the new School of Business. In the past few years, its completed a massive new residential complex and a new Performing Arts building. Georgetown is in a "build" mode.

We all know the University is working on the MSF, and we've all heard the calls from Muir, JTII, and others for improved practice facilities. In many ways, those practice facilities are just as important to JT III as well as other coaches and the whole AD as salaries. I'm just saying, its entirely possible that JTIII and Muir may both realize that while getting a contract in place is important, its even more important to use what capital they have to make things like facilities--something that Pops constantly fought an uphill battle to get--a reality. And by the way, those practice facilities are important to recruits, too.

Sure you can walk and chew gum at the same time, but Georgetown faces all sorts of obstacles every time it tries to take a step, so maybe it is prudent to focus on walking before it puts that stick of gum in its mouth.

[Ro]

SF...you ask how much money the University has put into the field. The short answer is just about none. It has been fully funded by alumni donations. That is why it is taking so long to complete. The University has granted the space, but not given any financial support. Let's also not forget that the field is to be used by the men's and women's' soccer teams, men's and women's lacrosse teams, and the women's field hockey team...and the vast majority of money raised for the project has come from football alums. I'm sure you also didn't know that approximately 30% of the funding of the football program also comes from alumni donations as opposed to University resources. Behind basketball, football raises the most money from alumni donations, and it is the program with the largest percentage of funding coming from donations. Did you also know that we are by far the least funded football program in the Patriot League? And that the next lowest funded program's budget is more than TWICE ours? Tough to compete at any level when your competition has more than twice to five-times the financial resources you do.

It's laughable to see you write "we've sunk quite a decent amount of money into football for no real return". Who is this "we"? Unless you are one of the alums who is opening up your checkbook to help support the program than you can't make that statement. Football has been grossly under supported by the administration since the team was brought back. As an outsider looking in you are quite silly to think that anyone at any level of power within the University has ever gone out of their way to support the development of the football program.

You are completely out of your mind thinking up some conspiracy theory that the University attempted to elevate the football program by holding back the basketball program. There's never been any earmarked money from the University that's gone into the stadium (which again is to be used by 6 sports teams) that could have been used elsewhere. The football team is still around because of the financial support of the alumni.

Maybe if all of the die-hard fans on this board showed a fraction of the financial support of the basketball program that the vastly smaller group of football alums does then there would be less worry of losing JTIII. Like town05 said, go donate some of your money to the school. Whining and complaining on a message board will get you nowhere. Put down the keyboard and pick up your checkbook. Over and over I come to this board and see nothing but complaints about not signing JTIII, about not getting Big East Tourney tickets, about the ticket/travel packages for the Final Four yet what I don't see are solutions to any complaint that make sense. You're afraid that the University can't afford JTIII? Then initiate a fundraising effort. You act like the University has an endless amount of financial resources that they are hiding...or better yet that the excess resources are being spent on the football program. That's good stuff.

And while you're at it refrain from making negative comments about things you have no knowledge of. The football program has a hard enough time trying to succeed without the support of the University, we don't need additional poorly-informed opposition. If you're worried about JTIII leaving, do something about it. If you're not willing to go beyond making a post on a message board then I'd question your passion and desire. It's really easy to question the University from a blog. Until you take some of your time and resources and devote them to helping solve the issues you bring up I don't think you can be taken seriously and your thoughts and complaints will get you and the program nowhere.

[Deleted]

And BOOM goes the dynamite!!!

(I'm outta here - this thread just got dangerous)

[strummer8526]

That was actually some good info about the way the University deals with the football team. Hoping not to incur a similar wrath, I will leave football totally out of this.

The reason I don't think anyone has initiated a fundraising campaign is that the University has never said why this is taking so long. Is it money? Is it facilities? Is it long term differences between III and DeGioia? The problem is that the school tells us SO little about anything that no one can ever help. I'd be first in line to help organize fundraising and to donate. But if that's not the reason then...?

[hoyatables]

cam said:

And BOOM goes the dynamite!!!

(I'm outta here - this thread just got dangerous)

What's funny is that this is exactly how the thread went the last time. We're all nothing if not predictable.

[SFHoya99]

Ro,

I knew I'd hit a nerve with those comments. I was more or less being flippant, which wasn't nice. I do think the football program is worthwhile and I'd love for it to be fully funded.

That said, basketball has a higher return for the University, IMO, in terms of student togetherness, identity, etc. I don't think there was/is a full fledged administration conspiracy, but I do think certain alumni/members of the admin think DI-AA football is "safer" and "more academic" than DI Basketball. I know there are people at Georgetown who wanted basketball to go away. I've heard more than one person wish we had gone the Holy Cross route.

As for your personal questioning of me, I've gone well beyond posting on a message board.

Initiate a fund-raising effort? Without any support of the University? I've actually tried, as have several other members here, and without the OK from the University, I've been told fundraising in the name of something without consent is pretty sketchy legally. If I'm wrong, tell me.

Give more money? Are you crazy? I've already given more than I can afford during the JTIII era. I've given more to the B School. But why would I give more when there's NO long term or short term plan communicated? That's a sucker's bet and means trusting people who have not earned it. If they would simply just ask for money to keep III or a facilities fund, I'm there. Instead they continue to act as if people don't have the right to question where their money is going.

Lastly, I haven't been complaining on a message board. I think it's odd that I have to face your wrath over complaints other people made -- why don't you try not lumping 1000 people on the message board into one person? My comment here was intended to spur people to some action. Last time this topic was hot on the message board a substantial number of people said Trust the Administration -- give them some time before we write letters, apply pressure, etc.

Well, season ticket deposits are due, so the admin is getting their money. It's been months. Not a peep of an update on either the facilities or the coach. Like I said before, with the Big East about to fall apart, the wrong moves here means the program could simply be done. And the school doesn't want to do anything.

Ro, maybe I don't know much about the football program, but you don't know jack about me. So don't question what I've done or tried to do.

[SFHoya99]

Tables,

The facilities comment made me laugh because a McD renovation has been on the plan for fifty years. They haven't even started fund-raising.

[hoyatables]

sfhoya99 said:

Tables,

The facilities comment made me laugh because a McD renovation has been on the plan for fifty years. They haven't even started fund-raising.

Fund-raising is but one part of the process. There are other elements that go into planning a building.

[VelvetElvis]

"You're going to call off your rigorous investigation. You're going to publicly state that there is no football conspiracy. Or... we are going to take your balls. Then we are going to send one to the New York Times, and one to the LA Times press-release style. Look, the people you are after are the people you depend on. We cook your meals, we haul your trash, we connect your calls, we drive your ambulances. We guard you while you sleep. Do not... F**ck with us.

signed - The Football Alumni

[PDRHoya99]

ro said:

SF...you ask how much money the University has put into the field. The short answer is just about none...The University has granted the space, but not given any financial support.

Maybe it's just me, but a large chunk of real estate in the nation's capital seems like it would have a value greater than zero.

ro said:

I'm sure you also didn't know that approximately 30% of the funding of the football program also comes from alumni donations as opposed to University resources.

So by my calculations roughly 70% does not come from alumni donations correct? I know I did that math fast there, hope you weren't in SFS. Seems like 70% is a pretty sizeable chunk of cash to drop on a program each year. According to the department of education, we spent $461,934 on football last year, meaning Alums provided $139k in funding, and the school kicked in $323k. Again, three hundred thousand dollars per year seems like a significant spend to me, and given that it represents 8% of our athletic budget, is certainly a significant amount of support. (for more data, you can check out the DOE site here: ope.ed.gov/athletics/main.asp)

ro said:

Behind basketball, football raises the most money from alumni donations, and it is the program with the largest percentage of funding coming from donations.

It also has the third highest budget for any sports team (getting just nosed out by track, which supports 70% more athletes and operates nearly year round. Given that football has the largest male alumni class every year, do your stats hold up when it comes to per capita giving?

ro said:

It's laughable to see you write "we've sunk quite a decent amount of money into football for no real return". Who is this "we"?

Well, 70% of the team's budget seems like a sizeable amount to me, so I think any donor to Georgetown and/or the athletic department is probably safe in using the term we.

Listen, I have no issue with the football team, and agree that they are probably vastly underfunded as are most of Georgetown's athletic teams. Additionally, it is laudable that the alums support it as much as they do. However, I think SF makes some valid points, that the athletic department does drop a significant chunk of change into the team each year, without much return on that investment. Unless things have changed drastically, the games are hardly a focal point of joe and jane hoyas saturday afternoons, and I still get many a "Georgetown has a football team???" puzzled comments on a regular basis.

[FormerHoya]

sfhoya99 said:

As for your personal questioning of me, I've gone well beyond posting on a message board.

Initiate a fund-raising effort? Without any support of the University? I've actually tried, as have several other members here, and without the OK from the University, I've been told fundraising in the name of something without consent is pretty sketchy legally. If I'm wrong, tell me.

Give more money? Are you crazy? I've already given more than I can afford during the JTIII era. I've given more to the B School. But why would I give more when there's NO long term or short term plan communicated? That's a sucker's bet and means trusting people who have not earned it. If they would simply just ask for money to keep III or a facilities fund, I'm there. Instead they continue to act as if people don't have the right to question where their money is going.

Lastly, I haven't been complaining on a message board. I think it's odd that I have to face your wrath over complaints other people made -- why don't you try not lumping 1000 people on the message board into one person? My comment here was intended to spur people to some action. Last time this topic was hot on the message board a substantial number of people said Trust the Administration -- give them some time before we write letters, apply pressure, etc.

Well, season ticket deposits are due, so the admin is getting their money. It's been months. Not a peep of an update on either the facilities or the coach. Like I said before, with the Big East about to fall apart, the wrong moves here means the program could simply be done. And the school doesn't want to do anything.

Ro, maybe I don't know much about the football program, but you don't know jack about me. So don't question what I've done or tried to do.

Yeah, seriously Ro, SF is on a whole 'nother level.

[EasyEd]

sfhoya99 said:

Tables,

The facilities comment made me laugh because a McD renovation has been on the plan for fifty years. They haven't even started fund-raising.

Wrong. McD was opened around 1950 and was considered, at the time, to be a state of the art facility.

[bubbrubbhoya]

ro said:

I'm sure you also didn't know that approximately 30% of the funding of the football program also comes from alumni donations as opposed to University resources. Behind basketball, football raises the most money from alumni donations, and it is the program with the largest percentage of funding coming from donations. Did you also know that we are by far the least funded football program in the Patriot League? And that the next lowest funded program's budget is more than TWICE ours? Tough to compete at any level when your competition has more than twice to five-times the financial resources you do.

I understand that the football program has its difficulties, and I too wish Georgetown could manage a couple league wins every few years. Additionally, I don't want to derail the thread (even though its already on a fast-track to outrageousness), but this is ludicrous, so while we're in a fact-checking mood, let me stop you there.

Football is NOT the program with the largest percentage of funding coming from donations. I don't have solid numbers, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that Sailing blows past football in terms of percentage funded by donations.

Most, if not all, of sailing's equipment has been funded by donations, much of the team's operating budget comes from donations, and areas that aren't funded (such as most tolls, gas, and meals) still come out of kids' pockets. Until very recently, the sailors themselves paid almost all hotels and transportation-related fees.

Any rise in contribution to the (Varsity) program from the University in recent years has only been spurred by pressure from a proven coach and an extremely active and successful independent fundrasing organization (which associated itself with the University just last year after essentially putting the former Hoyas Unlimited organization to shame with its ineffectiveness). I believe that this organization, Friends of Georgetown Sailing, almost funded the assistant coach's salary last year until the University finally stepped up to do its part. Still, FGS provides a major chunk (definitely dwarfing 30%) of funding for sailing.

Laugh if you want about the validity of sailing as a sport, but then check the results. You argue that it's "tough to compete at any level when your competition has more than twice to five-times the financial resources you do," as several of Georgetown Sailing's competitors do, but the 2 team and 3 individual National Championships over the past 6 years show that the sailing team has figured out a way to operate at a rather high level despite being hamstrung by Georgetown's Athletic Department.

That said, I'm in favor of getting a bit of revenue and better funding all our sports (if only we could mute that giant sucking sound coming from the MSF!).

[DFW HOYA]

hoyagsb99 said:

So by my calculations roughly 70% does not come from alumni donations correct? I know I did that math fast there, hope you weren't in SFS. Seems like 70% is a pretty sizeable chunk of cash to drop on a program each year. According to the department of education, we spent $461,934 on football last year, meaning Alums provided $139k in funding, and the school kicked in $323k. Again, three hundred thousand dollars per year seems like a significant spend to me, and given that it represents 8% of our athletic budget, is certainly a significant amount of support. (for more data, you can check out the DOE site here: ope.ed.gov/athletics/main.asp)

It also has the third highest budget for any sports team (getting just nosed out by track, which supports 70% more athletes and operates nearly year round. Given that football has the largest male alumni class every year, do your stats hold up when it comes to per capita giving?

Right source, wrong numbers.

The budget is based on overall expenses of $1.6 million, not the operating expenses of $461,934. The difference is in coaching salaries (well below the rest of the league) and financial aid equivalencies (aka "scholarships" in the non-PL and Ivy world) which are as few as one third of a school like Fordham. Imagine playing Big East basketball with four scholarships and nine walk-ons while the rest of the league has 13--that's why the team is sitting at 2-9 entering this season.

Within GU, the football budget certainly trails men's basketball (which raised $857K in FY 2006 towards expenses of $4.9 million per the GUHoyas.com web site) and women's basketball (which raised $11,777 in FY 2006 towards the budget of $1.5 million). Track is probably ahead, but I'm not sure.

Ro's points above were 100% correct. And as for this whole "sailing does more than football" argument, remember that sailing is not an NCAA sport and exists on a non-scholarship model of sorts. Football does not and needs to step up its fundraising top to bottom. More is needed and none too soon.

www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/backpage/roundtable_080607.htm

But I give FB alumni credit for stepping up and letting the administration know they're putting their dollars on the table. But instead of just yelling at the clouds, basketball alumni and the basketball constituency (HHC) can certainly build a course of action as well.