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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Dec 26, 2006 13:44:42 GMT -5
I wanted to comment on this and since we have some down time, I thought it would be appropriate. Nothing is more disrespectful then fans cheering excessively when these two touch the ball at the end of a game. It is fine to cheer for them when they get in, it is fine when you cheer for them if they score, but it is a circus to cheer for them to shoot it everytime they touch the ball.
These guys work hard in practice and don't need te be mocked when they do get in. Fans also add undo pressure to these two to hit a single shot at the end of the game. Treat them like the rest of the players on the squad versus some sort of white circus clowns. I don't see fans going nuts for Octavius when he gets in and the only difference between him & Sead who are both scholarship players, is that people don't see Sead or Izzo as legit members of the team and I think that it ridiculous.
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DrumsGoBang
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Post by DrumsGoBang on Dec 26, 2006 13:55:10 GMT -5
Did you like the movie Rudy?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2006 14:03:13 GMT -5
I don't see fans going nuts for Octavius when he gets in and the only difference between him & Sead who are both scholarship players, is that people don't see Sead or Izzo as legit members of the team and I think that it ridiculous. Race, perhaps?
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Bahstin
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Post by Bahstin on Dec 26, 2006 14:04:10 GMT -5
IMO, it is a race thing and it is very embarrassing to me. It was Trent Hillier when I was there.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Dec 26, 2006 14:10:33 GMT -5
In Rudy, they cheered for him to get into the game, not for every pass to be thrown to him. He was also an undersized walk-on in football versus a 6'6 scholly player who was brought in as a shooter. The guys that lead the cheers from the students need to spread the word. Let the "walk-up" crowd do what they like. I feel like most of this comes from the student section.
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hoyaLS05
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Post by hoyaLS05 on Dec 26, 2006 14:21:14 GMT -5
Kenny and Sead are also seniors...Tay is sophomore.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 26, 2006 14:30:56 GMT -5
IMO, it is a race thing and it is very embarrassing to me. It was Trent Hillier when I was there. That's not always the case--in the 1980's, you heard more of this type of cheer for Elvado Smith than a Jeff Bullis or Kurt Kaull. Why? Because Bullis and Kaull got playing time outside of the last minute of a game, and Vadi rarely did. Trenton Hillier didn't get the razz from the crowd as a freshman. He played 121 minutes in 99-00 and I remember him geting time in each of the Maui Invitational games in the first half. Senior year? Ten. I don't think Ken Izzo will ever be immune from the late game stuff, but as a scholarship player Sead Dizdarevic deserves a little better. Sead averaged 7.5 minutes a game his freshman season, then 3.6, then 3.4, now 1.5. Even if he subbed for a minute or two each half as a extra rest for Roy Hibbert before the TV time out, he wouldn't get the razz from the students. Then again, the coaching staff is probably sending a meaage that Sead hasn't stepped up in practice either, and a similar message may be at play with Spann as well.
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Post by mplshoya on Dec 26, 2006 14:32:16 GMT -5
Just posting to echo ColumbiaHeights and Bahstin. People cheered like crazy last year even when Izzo and Sead were Juniors. Whether or not it is a race thing is debatable, but it certainly must be embarrasing for those guys to be treated like novelties. My friends and I have noticed this for a long time and cringe every time it happens.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Dec 26, 2006 14:44:51 GMT -5
Three things.
1) For the Singapore Slingers game I was at, the team has one native Singaporean. With the Slingers up by twenty, they subbed him in. He made a layup as time expired and the crowd went nuts.
2) When I was at the University of Delaware, there was a similar cheer for a goofy guy who (if I recall correctly) played football, too. It wasn't a race thing, it's a "wow, it's a rout", let's get the worst guy on the team, who almost always doesn't play well in comparison to everyone else" thing.
3) Possibly the loudest I ever saw the Cap Centre/US Air Arena get was when Brendan Gaughan made a shot to make it an even 100 against Colgate. Good times.
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Post by thesuperweasel on Dec 26, 2006 14:50:58 GMT -5
I agree with the general sentiment that we should not disrespect these players. I give the guys credit, when they've been in the game for a few minutes at the cupcake games they haven't made fools of themselves by throwing up random shots like the crowd would like. They've run the offense, I even remember Izzo at the WSS game making a baseline drive and then passing it off (it didn't work out, but it was a nice thought). Obviously they don't have the same ability as other players on the team, but they're still players and fellow students who deserve our respect.
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Locker
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Post by Locker on Dec 26, 2006 14:55:02 GMT -5
Meh. It is mostly about race, but so what? There's plenty more to do before we have time to get self-righteous about the "White Guys Can't Play Basketball" stereotype, which is really the foundation for the underdog (and fan favorite) status of the last white guy on the bench of every college team in America. I have no doubt that the fans at an HBCU would treat Kenny Izzo the same way.
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Post by RockawayHoya on Dec 26, 2006 15:03:01 GMT -5
I don't think it's an issue of race, but because they are buried deep on the bench and rarely get to play. I remember Knick fans doing to the same to Herb Williams during the early-mid 90's whenever the Knicks had a comfortable lead late and an aging Herb came in for mop-up duty. That wasn't about race, and neither is this.
I don't remember the crowd going that beserk for Hillier back in the day, either. And we didn't urge Sead to shoot every time he touched the ball back in the dark days when he played some significant minutes (was it UConn where he made a 1st half appearance once?). It just comes with the territory of being the 10th or 11th man in.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 26, 2006 15:18:58 GMT -5
It's the crowds realization that the "victory cigar" has been lit. Regardless of race, it's understood those guys don't get into the game unless its really in hand and therefore when they do come in, the crowd reacts joyously. We know that we can stop worrying that the team is going to collapse.
I will continue to cheer loudly and excessively for them when they come in...because I'll be relieved that my greatest concern is not us choking away a 10 point lead in two minutes, but whether a doofy looking bench warmer hits a shot or grabs a board.
I think it was Shavlik Randolph at Duke who was asked how he felt about being their victory cigar...his response was that he was just as excited as the fans, because he knew if he was going in, the game was over and it was just about finishing the game.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 26, 2006 15:20:12 GMT -5
I don't think it's an issue of race, but because they are buried deep on the bench and rarely get to play. I remember Knick fans doing to the same to Herb Williams during the early-mid 90's whenever the Knicks had a comfortable lead late and an aging Herb came in for mop-up duty. That wasn't about race, and neither is this. I don't remember the crowd going that beserk for Hillier back in the day, either. And we didn't urge Sead to shoot every time he touched the ball back in the dark days when he played some significant minutes (was it UConn where he made a 1st half appearance once?). It just comes with the territory of being the 10th or 11th man in. the crowd went crazy for trent. trust me. one game where he hit a three pointer in his garbage time crunch, we almost went insane. he was the king of the missed layup...that drove us crazy.
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Post by RockawayHoya on Dec 26, 2006 15:26:01 GMT -5
I don't think it's an issue of race, but because they are buried deep on the bench and rarely get to play. I remember Knick fans doing to the same to Herb Williams during the early-mid 90's whenever the Knicks had a comfortable lead late and an aging Herb came in for mop-up duty. That wasn't about race, and neither is this. I don't remember the crowd going that beserk for Hillier back in the day, either. And we didn't urge Sead to shoot every time he touched the ball back in the dark days when he played some significant minutes (was it UConn where he made a 1st half appearance once?). It just comes with the territory of being the 10th or 11th man in. the crowd went crazy for trent. trust me. one game where he hit a three pointer in his garbage time crunch, we almost went insane. he was the king of the missed layup...that drove us crazy. That was probably during his early years (before I got there) when we were still making the NCAA tournament and we could afford to go crazy when our benchwarmers get their token minutes. It also might be the fact that instead of a couple hundred students going nuts for Hillier when he got in, a couple thousand students are going nuts for Sead/Kenny when they get in. Big difference.
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Post by HoyaOnBothSides on Dec 26, 2006 15:46:26 GMT -5
It's obviously race...and guess what? it's nothing new...if anyone watched the knicks in the early 90s they knew the name Eric Anderson..
as Wiki says: "During Anderson's time with the Knicks he only played at the end of blowout victories. At Madison Square Garden fans would chant his name hoping he would get a chance to play. At the time, he was the only white player on the roster. His career highlight came at the end of a blowout victory during the 1993-94 NBA season where he hit a meaningless 3 pointer at the buzzer and fans celebrated like the Knicks just won a championship."
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Dec 26, 2006 15:56:58 GMT -5
Historically, not race. Felix Yeoman '78 use to get the same treatment from the fans. He took the cheers with grace and humor and was an all around good guy who's been quite successful in real estate/banking here in DC since graduation. If my recall is correct, Esherick would get more playing time than Felix.
Correct. from the soon-to-be added "Minutes" stats, here are the minutes per game for 1977-78:
J. Duren: 34.2 per game Martin: 31.6 Shelton: 31.4 Hopkins: 28.6 Jackson: 34.1 Dutch: 18.1 Riley: 14.6 Esherick: 12.9 Scates: 12.7 Yeoman: 7.8 Frazier: 5.2 Irwin: 3.0 L. Duren: 2.0
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Dec 26, 2006 16:17:58 GMT -5
I thinking the victory cigar is a valid comment for cheering them getting in, not for asking them to chuck up a shot every time they touch the ball. Big difference in my opinion. Cheering for them is great, mocking them is what is actually occurring though, be honest. Why not cheer loud after they hit a shot?
That is what we do with all the other players and if there is some extra emphasis because they rarely get minutes, that is fine as that is an appreciation vs. a circus act. I don't really think it is race either and I apologize if my white clown comment drew that out. I just remember a Thompson era quote about an unnamed G'town player who threw a nice dime to Ya Ya Dia for a dunk and he missed it. The subsequent blame was directed towards the unnamed player with the white clown comment.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2006 16:22:48 GMT -5
This thread proves one thing: baselinejournal was right.
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Dec 26, 2006 16:24:41 GMT -5
This is pretty stupid. Its not about race - at least it isn't for me when I cheer for them. Its a recognition that these guys bust their asses in practice and never get to see the court and when we are up big the students and other fans want to see them get a chance to perform. People who want to make this an argument about race will do that I suppose - but it really isn't about that at all.
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