Back From Cameron

[RockawayHoya]

And as I offer my 2 cents, I'll promise you all more than just ANOTHER not so subtle jab at our guard play.

18 hours of driving gives you a lot of time to think about the game. Here are just some points (in no specific order of importance):

1) I was thoroughly impressed by both Cameron (the facility itself) as well as their fans. Their students often get a bad rap for being posers and TV whores, but this much is for certain: a) they never take a play off, b) they never take a timeout off, and c) they stay away from the negative cheering (bs chants, heckling the opposing team, etc.). I thought I was going to catch a lot of flak from their fans for standing, but guess what: they (as in the general audience) were standing up for a good portion of the game, including all key moments, and any time the student section asked for their help for noise. As a fan of college basketball, I couldn't ask for a better environment to watch the game, and the Duke fans were both knowledgeable as well as classy. I have a lot more respect for their fans (and by their fans, I mean the locals as well as the alums, not the posers living across the country who root for them just because they happen to be a frontrunner) after this weekend. Interesting sidenote: the student section has their own entrance into the arena. And note to self, don't try to enter through that entrance in future visits to Cameron.

1b (since I'm too lazy to renumber my points and I didn't want this to be the last one): Vitale revving up the crowd and bringing his grandchildren into the student section an hour before tip-off was just sickening. I will just leave it at that.

2) I was a lot happier with our overall effort last night. I was especially critical of them after the Oregon game last Wed., and they really came out and showed me more intensity and a desire to compete. The crowd was loud, but I don't believe we were intimidated at all by the environment. I admit I was extremely worried that we would be run out of the building, given that we have so many inexperienced players playing big minutes. They more than held their own.

3) One point that was brought up several times over the off season was whether or not we could find somebody who could assume Ashanti's role of getting a tough basket when our offense would break down and the shot clock would be winding down. We did that often in the 1st half, with Sapp, Wallace, and Rivers all making clutch shots and creating something out of nothing. At least in the 1st half, those plays masked the fact that we were still getting nothing from our post players. I had a feeling it would be wishful thinking hoping that it would last all game, and obviously it didn't. Guard play continues to be amazingly our strength this year (collectively, they had a very strong game as a unit against Duke), but if that's the case, we are in for a long year.

4) Not every guard gets my stamp of approval. Marc Egerson was our only G/F that looked like he was in over his head on the floor last night. Bunch of open looks (can't argue with many, if any of the shots that he took), but he really needs to hit a few of those uncontested jumpers. He was also more often than not a primary culprit on defense.

5) Speaking of our defense: much better effort last night. Guys were fighting around picks much better, and aside from two early uncontested threes by Nelson and a bad break where a loose ball caromed directly to Pocius, our guys did what I thought was a solid job closing out on the perimeter. What killed us on defense was not getting back in transition defense late in the game (during that late flurry when Duke began to build their lead off of turnovers and layups). I don't know if that could be attributed to fatigue or a lack of concentration, but it cost us dearly.

6) Roy and Jeff have got to understand this: rebounds are great, assists are great, and being team players are always better than not being them. But, if they do not offer enough in the way of putting the ball in the basket, we are not going to beat any team worth their salt this year. When Jeff Green has a random scrub like McClure pinned in the paint 5 feet from the bucket, he cannot come away with a turnover/badly missed shot. Plain and simple. When Roy Hibbert has McRoberts pinned in a similar position, he cannot settle for a 8 foot hook shot/air ball. Make a strong move, and force the defender to hack or allow a basket. This isn't rocket science, and I'm just not sure how the message hasn't gotten across to them that they need to be far more assertive on the offensive end of the floor. Having said all that, they definitely played better last night than they did earlier in the week. But they still need to improve. By a lot.

7) One crucial mistake many of our players made repeatedly over and over again were 5 second calls 30-40 feet from the basketThis happened at least 3-4 times, if not more. Those turnovers effectively killed whatever chance we had to build a double digit lead in the first half and possibly put the game out of reach when Duke was floundering on the offensive end. Players have to be more cognizant of the refs being extremely willing to call that (as well as point #6), and those are points that go against the coaching staff.

8) Since I mentioned the refs, I'll say this: I thought it was a very well officiated game. I was worried that they would get a lot of home cooking in Durham, but that was never the case. Only one call really puzzled me all night (when we were down 5 with 2 minutes to go, and it looked like Sapp and Green collided for a loose ball and they called a loose ball foul on Green which sent Duke to the line). But other than that, I couldn't complain at all.

9) The Rivers injury looked bad. He couldn't even put weight on his good foot as he was coming off the court. Let's pray it's just a bad sprain and he'll be back in time for the meat of the BE schedule. With him and Crawford now out (TC obviously is still not 100%, even though he saw token action), there is a significant amount of pressure on Wallace and Sapp to stay out of foul trouble now. Any smart team will go after them early and often, and I'm extremely worried about our backcourt depth.

10) This looks like the rotation that JTIII trusts to be out on the floor in big games. No sign of Macklin or Ewing Jr. (never expected to see Ewing on the floor anyways). It appears Summers and Rivers have earned III's trust to play big minutes, and I can't say I disagree. Summers is still way out of control on the defensive end, but I am very pleased with Rivers' poise and headiness in a pressure-packed environment. Again, his loss is a big one.

11) Now, perhaps my most critical statement of this team: we have absolutely no clue how to play from behind. Granted, we kept our composure and held the lead a lot longer than I thought we would have considering how poorly we executed on the offensive end in the 2nd half (Wallace's 3 to put us up 4 and a big bucket and foul by Roy to maintain our lead momentarily with about 5 minutes to go). But once we lost the lead, we freaked out again like usual. The team has to understand that when you are down 5, 7, 8 points under a minute to go, you can't swing the ball around and run 15-20 seconds trying to find the perfect shot. And, to top it off, it doesn't look like anyone understands that we need to take a 3 or dribble drive IMMEDIATELY to the basket in those situations. We made the same mistake against Oregon, and it wasn't corrected last night either. Coaching staff needs to address this ASAP.

12) Another criticism of our team. Can we please get on the floor to dive for a loose ball once in awhile? Duke wanted the loose balls way more than we did, and there were several plays where the ball was on the ground and our guy would try to pick it up and a Duke player would sacrifice his body to get to the ball first. That should not happen.

12) Don't mistake this as an outright JTIII bash or a call for the return of Esh (if you know me, you know damn well THAT will NEVER happen), but the coaching staff didn't do a good job lat all ast night. Adjustments needed to be made (such as some of the points I previously wrote about) since the last game as well as during the game, and many of them were not. It's OK to screw up once. But it's not OK to continuously commit the same mistakes. Let's hope the coaching staff gets on the ball before the next couple of games

13) Overall, a better effort from the Hoyas, and I'm not entirely distraught that we lost the game, but extremely disappointing that we let a very winnable game (and marquee road win) slip through our hands. It's by no means a crippling loss, but it does mean we have to run the table as far as our OOC is concerned. There's no more margin of error for us.

[EasyEd]

Best summary of this game yet. A lot better than another RDF rant.

[Oh My!]

ditto ditto

[hoya137]

solid post Rockaway. you made alot of points and I agreed with almost every one of them, especially (11) regarding being clueless about playing from behind -- that's very frustrating and I think that's on the coaches. but definitely correctable.

In regards to (6), I'm baffled with Hibbert's productivity so far -- but I'm confident he'll get on track. I watched him play all summer at Kenner, and I know the competition is now stiffer (but in reality, the competition against Hibbs has not been stellar), but I still have confidence that he'll find his rhythm and become a force. He hasn't shown it this year, but he was a force this summer at Kenner and is much better than he's playing -- good hands, good touch, and an improving passer from the position. He drew strong reviews in the Nike too. Seems he just hasn't found the flow yet -- and now he's probably at the point (as is Green) where he's thinking too much because he knows he's expected (and expecting himself) to play much better.

One positive thing I noticed in the the Duke game that appeared to be different than Oregon -- defensively we were not switching the high screen on D. I saw Thomspon explicitly telling Wallace to slide under the screen (while Hibbs hedged) and stay with the guard. This was different than the Oregon game where we were switching everyhing -- and allowing Oregon to iso Hibbs repeatedly on a quick guard. Note, there was one particular play where Hibbs did switch -- and he ended up guarding Paulus at the perimeter and subsequently getting burned almost immediately (Paulus beat him for a layup). Happy coaches made that adjustment.

My final point -- to me I still really like the guys on this team. Some people are quick to question heart and guts, but to me heart is not something you just turn off and on. These guys are missing open shots, suffering from coaching mistakes, and in general, struggling on both ends of the court -- evidence by low scoring and tons of turnovers. All that said, high turnovers doesn't mean low heart -- I still feel like these guys really want to win. Maybe they're missing a fiery leader right now, but that doesn't mean they have heart.

[hoyatables]

I agree 99.9% with Rockaway's observations--Cameron is an amazing facility and the fans are intense. For the most part, they all seem to know where that line is -- they come close, but they don't cross it (exceptions are made for those wearing Carolina Blue, who receive NO mercy ). In fact, I was most impressed that, when Baby Doc Rivers went down, and a couple of students in the far corner started up a cheer, everyone else immediately shut them up.

Other fans were also, for the most part, respectful of the few and the proud Hoya faithful (props, by the way, to the guy yelling "HOYA" during free throws towards the end -- I was happy to be your "SAXA!") They were very protective of their turf and their team (quite literally--one woman assumed I didn't belong in my seat and suggested I would be thrown out in short order), but they also appreciated an opposing fan who acted with respect, as a guest should.

The students were also quite entertaining. Except for a "safety school" chant before play started (that I thought just made the Duke students seem pathetic), they were reasonable. LOTS of positive cheering.

Every single fan in that arena, however, needs to be reminded that EVERY call can't go their way. Granted, Georgetown got a number of calls to go its way (far more, I think, than we got the last time down in Durham), but Dookies seem to think their players should get away with murder. That would be my one gripe with them.

As for the Hoyas, I haven't even had much of a chance to read posts, but I suspect I know what was said. I agree with what's been written by Rockaway and others here -- we definitely showed some of the talent and brilliance from last year. We just couldn't play 40 minutes of it. Duke and Georgetown are pretty similar teams -- the difference last night was that Coach K made the right adjustments at the half, and Paulus hit some BIG shots down the stretch, while JT III couldn't pull the levers, and our leaders couldn't hit the big shots at the end. (And yes, those five second calls were disastrous. So, too, were other silly mistakes, like Roy dribbling the ball off his foot and out of bounds, or bad passes/dishes that went right into opposing hands. )

[DFW HOYA]

Excellent report--thanks.

I think the stat that really jumps out at me is assists: 11 in the first half, one in the second. Unless and until Georgetown can learn the three point shot, they're an easy mark for tight interior defense which keeps the ball out of Green and Hibbert's control. It's easy for fans to say "give the ball to Roy/Jeff", but it's simply a lot tougher without some help, ANY help, from outside.

Not a bad loss if they can learn from it. Then again, you could see this same mess against JMU.

[hoyatables]

dfw said:

Excellent report--thanks.

I think the stat that really jumps out at me is assists: 11 in the first half, one in the second. Unless and until Georgetown can learn the three point shot, they're an easy mark for tight interior defense which keeps the ball out of Green and Hibbert's control. It's easy for fans to say "give the ball to Roy/Jeff", but it's simply a lot tougher without some help, ANY help, from outside.

Not a bad loss if they can learn from it. Then again, you could see this same mess against JMU.

Funny that you mention the three. A few things of note:

1) At some point in the first half, when we had opened up a decent lead, Duke turned over the ball on three or four straight possessions and we followed with quick three-point shots, none of which fell. Part of the problem was that they weren't really good shots, but also our guys missed at least one open one (I don't remember the details). It really stuck with me -- our boys were trying to hit that dagger but just could get the blade to meet its mark.

2) Just as with Oregon, as time wore down in the second half, the perimeter guys looked tentative and didn't shoot when we clearly needed the points and couldnt waste time.

3) Why isn't Green shooting the three? He had at least four or five looks from the line that I swear he should have taken. I don't mind him dishing inside--but outside the arc he needs to put it up when he is open. Unless and until he does no, opposing players know they can stay back for a double team inside.

[1984alloveragain]

This is the best thread going since the end of the game last night. Thanks fellas, really nice points. Those points such as the phantom foul on Green; the 3 missed 3's in the first half instead of wearing them down and making them play some D; and the stall ball still down 5 and 7 with under 1:30 to go really gnarled at me last night. What REALLY bugged me is Macklin (and, YES, Ewing too, but a little less so) not getting ANY burn last night. I can't believe he would not have helped even a little at some point in each half. I HATED not winning this game because it was SOO winnable.

Finally, did anyone notice how happy K looked when they had the game in hand with a few seconds left? He was waving his hands to the crowd in thanksgiving like I've NEVER seen him do, even in Regional Finals. I GUARANTEE anyone that when he looked at this game on the schedule on Nov. 10th, he was thinking this was gonna be a double digit loss for him, and it seemed it would be just that in the first half yesterday. We REALLY let that team get off the hook---- I HOPE we can bounce back and win two or three others we're not supposed to win later this year.... HOYA SAXA!!!

PS------ FREE THE BIG TICKET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[miamihoya]

ya i agree with 1984 that the most dissapointing thing about this game is how beatable Duke was. Last year, they were a great team and we managed to play our best basketball and upset them. This year, there is no reason we should not have won that game. We could have easily been up by 15-20 at the half if we had executed better and not taken those consecutive pull-up threes on transition. Even in the second half, Duke didn't play that well, but we just fell apart and forgot how to play basketball. It is not often that you get a chance to play such a weak Coach K led team, and we blew it.

[tal1286]

great summary...only one point I'd like to make.

There was one call that set me off during the game. During the 2nd half one of their white guards, the freshman, frustrated I can't remember his name, drove to the hoop and got fouled and completed the 3 point play. I took no issue with the foul call. What made me angry was that he clearly traveled. He took his steps and when he should have shooted, he faked a pass, took another step (completing the travel), and then shot. I was really Editeded. I mean, obviously the refs didn't cost us that game but that was a huge 3 point play.

[lichoya68]

good summary rockaway one thing tho i think killed us was we played great in the first half BUT i think we were one for nine from three yup and almost all of those were wide open good looks.. soooooo if we hit two of those then three for nine and the lead at halftime was thirteen and not just seven and maybe didnot need to get into the behind thing ever just an observation like need to hit SOME threes.. go hoyas lets get moving and hustle and move like the first hafl of duke

[coloradohoya]

I have to say I totally agree with you, Rockaway. I have been trying to stay away for a couple of days and sort out my feelings about the game. First, I totally agree with you about the officiating. There is always going to be a mistake or two in a game, since there is no replay for fouls (and I'm not advocating that there be any.) I thought the game was as well reffed a game as I've seen.
Second, as you correctly point out, there has been a lot of whining on the board about guard play and officiating, and this has not been confined to the Duke game. This team's failures have nothing to do with those two items, rather as I see it, this team has a void of leadership. I think points 3,6,11,12 in your post are all emblematic of this problem. Leaders want to take a shot with the game on the line, not pass it. Leaders want to take the ball to the rack. Leaders also want to create assists, they do not just hog the basketball, but they do not spend most of their time trying to pass. Most importantly leaders inspire the other players around them. So that people are diving for loose balls, or chasing balls out of bounds, or fighting for every second at the end of the game.
While the coaching staff does deserve some of the blame for not fixing this problem, I cannot allow Mr. Green to escape responsibility. Yes, Roy should be scoring (read finishing) more. Yes, our guards need to turn the ball over less. Most of all, however, paging Jeff Green.
You have the talent and smarts to be one of the top players in the country. You are the most experienced player on the team. We need your leadership. We need your heart. Right now I'm not even sure you're the team's MVP. Your leadership is the difference between us being a final four team and us being a NIT team, and I am still waiting for you to show it.

P.S. It was really good to see Crawford on the floor. Hope you're feeling better.

[chinatownfanclub]

I too agree with most of Rockaway's points. I managed to score some tickets to the game Friday afternoon and drove down with Hoyasox. Here are some of my own thoughts.

1) The place and the atmosphere was incredible. We were a little intimidated at first as we arrived to tour Cameron w/ our buddy who works for their Sports Info dept. All the Dookies in line were just staring at us in our Gtown gear. However, I quickly sized up the crowd and realized we had a better chance of getting in a fight at a Backstreet Boys concert.

2) I can't begin to explain how confident the team looked in the first half. Jesse and Jerry took and made some very difficult shots, but they looked extremely comfortable doing it. As was noted above, there were a couple of dagger opportunities in the 1st half that we missed. I remember most vividly Mark in the corner for a wide open three. I was halfway out of my sit as it was in the air only to see it rattle around and off.

3) I can't fault Jeff too much in his effort. In the last 5 min he was demanding the ball every time down court and he was trying to take the ball to the hole. Unfortunately, what developed was an old NBA style of offense where Jonathan or Jesse came down and tried to give it to Jeff in the post while everybody else just stood around and watched. As Duke collapsed with 2 or 3 guys, I was waiting for somebody to make themselves available for an open 3, but nothing ever seemed to materialize. Jeff was phenomenal on the defensive boards. He was skying over people and getting rebounds w/ one hand.

4) I have to give the team credit for coming back and tying it when they fell behind by 4. I'm not sure the TV does justice to how the place just exploded when Duke took the lead. Wallace hit a great shot and I think Jeff took the ball strong and hit a couple free throws.

5) The Duke fans are not big Greg Paulus fans. There were a lot of grumblings in the stands around me as he turned the ball over on numerous occasions in the 1st half. Although he came back w/ some big shots in the 2nd half, he is definitely not a crowd favorite.

6) McRoberts travels every time he touches the ball. It's unbelievable. The refs did a good job of calling it when it was especially egregious (twice when Duke was starting runs), but they could have called it every time.

7) Duke needed to play Henderson and Thomas more. Thomas was a real tough matchup for Jeff b/c he was an inch or two taller and just as quick. Henderson was the only real scoring threat coming off the bench. He will be a stud next year.

8) Duke is going to be average (for them) this year. I don't think they will finish in the top 3 of the ACC. Nelson is the only guy on the team who looks like he can score on every possession. Nocius and Scheyer bring the same thing (hit open 3 point shots) and they are scrawny - Coach K needs to get them in the weight room. Zoubek is uncoordinated. Unless McRoberts turns into a 20 and 10 guy every night (which is possible, but he does not seem particularly aggressive going to the hoop) this team will not make it past the 2nd round of the tournament.

[IlladelpHoya]

Rockaway ... thanks for the analysis ... critical where necessary, but with a keen eye on the silver linings. There are a lot of chicken littles running around this week. While none of us are happy w/ a loss, there is still a lot of basketball left to be played and we saw unmistakable glimpses of the team we all know exists somewhere deep underneath the exterior passing, turnovers, and poor 3-point shooting.

I still take solace in the fact that, with the possible exception of two or three games(I won't say which ones), we will be the most talented team on the court every time out. That doesn't necessarily make us the best team. That comes in practice and coaching adjustments.

I love JTIII. Even if this year turns out to disappoint us in the end, there is no better coach right now for this school and this program than John Thompson III. His hiring will prove the best move the athletic department has made in over thirty years. But when he talks about us being a "young" team (which many of us here HATE hearing), part of that extends to him as well. Coach K outcoached III Sunday -- but that's okay. He's been doing this for a loooong time and he's figured out how to get blood from a stone (or a brick -- looking at you McBob). He made the right defensive adjustments and created an environment for Paulus (their best player) to thrive. His players played from behind w/ passion and focus.

We'll get there too. JTIII is a great, but young, coach. He will learn from this game, as will DS, Jeff, Sapp, and Roy. The season is only 1/4 over. That's it. The Duke loss was better than the Oregon loss, and here's hoping our next loss is even better than that. Losing isn't fun, but it's a part of this game (Kansas and Florida have lost 2x each) and learning from it makes you a better team. Things may look a little cloudy today, but there are probably 310-315 other programs in the country who would switch place with us right now, considering the coach we have, the players we have, the players we're going to have, and the fans we have.

A little optimism is in order. And I'm from Philly ... if I can be optimistic, then the rest of this board can too.

[SpanishHoya]

By the way, did anyone catch the sole Hoya fan in the sea of Crazies? At one point, about 200 Duke students turned around and started pointing at him. Anyone know who he is? I have a good pic of him from opposite side of the arena..

[hoyatables]

There were actually a couple of Hoya fans sprinkled among the Duke faithful. There were actually three or four that I counted among the Crazies on the non-bench side, and another pair on the bench side. And there were, of course, the small but dedicated group of students in the regular seats who got roundly heckled by the Crazies during the pre-game and another group opposite our bench. I know there were more (my flight was full of Georgetown fans!) but those are the ones that stood out.

[LCPolo18]

Props to Rockaway, thanks for the solid analysis as always. And also, thanks for the in game phone calls reminding me of how jealous I was that you were there.

[Eurostar]

Good thread guys. Ive got something to add...

Im pretty sure that Coach K "hustled" us in this game. It seems that he went with his normal in your face pressure defense the entire first half... almost knowing that we would be ahead going into halftime. We did it to his team last year, and they never adjusted. So this year he went out with the same strategy in the first half and was probably very happy to be down only 7. In the second half he made major adjustments. He kept the light pressure on in the backcourt, but as soon as we got into the half-court set he sagged his man-to-man defense back a little bit. It was a noticeable adjustment, and thats all it took to win them the game.

Either Thompson didnt see it or we couldnt adjust... but the result was 2 FG in the final 11 1/2 minutes. Im suprised that we dont react more to what the defense gives us. You would think that we would have certain goals when facing a pressure man-to-man (typical princeton offense), zone (quick passes, skip passes, and flashing jeff to the foul line) and a sagging man-to-man (penetrate and kick out, pick and rolls). It seems like when they went into a sagging man-to-man in the second half we just sort of existed in our perimeter passing, not really doing anything with the ball offense of the esherick era.

[hoya95]

Got back myself from Cameron last night, and I didn't have too much to add. But I don't think Coach K was hustling us. He spent the first half trying to play the way they normally do. This is December, and he's got a bunch of freshmen he's trying to teach. When that didn't work, he went to plan B. And I suspect that if we'd opened a bigger lead in the first half, he'd have switched earlier.
My Duke admin friend got me a "buffer zone" seat behind the Georgetown bench, so I had to be on my best behavior. But for all the frustration on the 2nd half, it was nice to see us back in games that have a big time atmosphere. I can't fault the effort, and if we'd beaten Old Dominion, this loss wouldn't have been a big deal. Hopefully, it still won't be. You all saw what our weaknesses have been, and let's hope they'll be minimized by January.
I was impressed being in Cameron after seeing it on TV so many times. They certainly have their home court advantage down to a science, but I was kind of expecting to be blown away by the noise. It reminded me of games at McDonough, and that's a great luxury for any team to have. But even at the loudest points, I could always talk to the people next to me, and I could hear them clearly. It's a great home court, but it's not impossible to win there. It's the teams they've had for the last 20 years that make the biggest difference. That said, I would still love to have some kind of on-campus arena like it.

[mrsixer123]

In the second half he made major adjustments. He kept the light pressure on in the back court, but as soon as we got into the half-court set he sagged his man-to-man defense back a little bit. It was a noticeable adjustment, and thats all it took to win them the game.

u are 100% correct and i stated the same thing yesterday. to say duke didn't make any D adjustments is totally incorrect. duke NEVER sags on D!!!!!!! as soon as they did this, i turned to fellow gtown fans behind the bench and whispered "they have us right where they want us" btw, coach k didn't "hustle" us, he OUT COACHED us!

not really doing anything with the ball offense of the esherick era.

what was the ball offense of the esh?