Question Marks for 2007 Season

[PopeJohn2]

Outside shooting outside shooting outside shooting.

Even with a great frontcourt we will struggle if we dont have good outside shooting. We will miss Owens and Cook for the balance they provided from outside. Owens saved our bacon in the first SJU game.

Wallace needs to shoot well and we need 1.5 more strong shooters from 3.

The Georgetown O is nothing special without the 3.

[hoyarooter]

While it's always good to see His Holiness back on board, I must say that this topic was beaten to death on another thread.

[SFHoya99]

I have other questions that don't involve outside shooting...

1) Who wins the 3 spot?

2) Who wins the third guard spot?

3) Is Macklin ready enough to allow us to stay big when Roy or Jeff goes out?

4) Is Jeff ready to transition to primarily a perimeter/high post player? Like almost any player, he's more effective down low. But with Roy playing more and more minutes, Jeff will likely have less and less opportunities to post up. And he struggled at times on the perimeter (and other times he dominated out there).

5) Will the opposing team ever get a rebound if we have Roy, Jeff, Pat and Jesse on the court?

6) Roy is dominating Kenner. Is his improvement from Soph to Junior as big as from Frosh to Soph? If so, is there anyway we aren't a Top 5 team?

7) What will Jon Wallace bring to the table we won't expect this year?

[theEDGEfactor]

does ewing bring his game from kenner or indiana?
wat player outside of sapp gets minutes from the '09 class
how much better does roy really look?

[GIGAFAN99]

I think the most important issue will be how having legitimate depth down low affects the aggressiveness of Roy and Jeff on both ends of the court. (Much like SF's #3)

If Jeff and Roy are confident that Macklin and/or Summers can fill in for even small stretches if one of them gets in foul trouble it will be huge for their ability to take the ball strong on offense and not tiptoe as much as they have on defense. We know they'll improve physically and broaden their games. But if they get the greenlight to attack without fear that the team will be playing with two small forwards or an offensive non-factor power forward like last year, the Hoyas will no longer be the "tall team that never gets a block" and it will be very hard to score on this team.

[SirSaxa]

GIGAFAN... I think that's a really good point. Pat, Summers and Macklin can all potentially get some serious minutes and take pressure off of Jeff and Roy. It will keep them fresher as well as allowing them to be more aggressive.

However, I think 3 PT shooting is another key for our offense to be effective. Otherwise, teams will pack in the zone making those midrange shots hard to come by. We need ALL aspects of this offense to be working to get the maximum from it.

One more thing.. I believe that JT3 will show a lot of new offensive wrinkles again this year based on:
- Three years of familiarity with the system for this team
- new guys with new talents mean new aspects of the offense.

JT3 structures his offense around his talent.... he does not force them to conform to him.

Personally, I am expecting a breakout year from Jessie Sapp as well as continued improvement from Roy and Pat's contributions. Could be a very exciting year once again!

[MCIGuy]

popejohn2 said:

Outside shooting outside shooting outside shooting.

Even with a great frontcourt we will struggle if we dont have good outside shooting. We will miss Owens and Cook for the balance they provided from outside. Owens saved our bacon in the first SJU game.

Wallace needs to shoot well and we need 1.5 more strong shooters from 3.

The Georgetown O is nothing special without the 3.

And the beat goes on. If I had a dime for every time a Hoya fan whined about this.

We've gone down this road and yet the same questions are brought up. Tell me, was the Hoya offense "special" last season with all that supposed great three-point shooting provided by DJ and Ashanti? I don't think so. The Hoyas have yet to put together a special offense over one season's worth of games. I hope it happens soon but it hasn't happened yet.


I don't think its worth even debating this issue anymore nor is it worth trying to convince the naysayers. Going into last season there were an equal amount of doubters who thought the Hoyas were going to take a step or two back and miss the tourney again. A couple even predicted the Hoyas to have a losing record in the Big East. You can't change some people's minds on this.

I will say this...perhaps if the Hoyas hadn't taken 21 unnecessary three-point shots against Florida and instead pounded the ball more inside to Roy or even Jeff maybe Gtown goes on to win the championship. Or maybe instead of shooting threes all game long if the Hoyas had players with the abiity, toughness and courage to drive to the hole more instead to score or draw foul calls maybe Gtown goes on to win the championship. Being three-point happy (which is often "lazy basketball") can have a negative effect, ya know. Especially when the shots aren't falling.

[hoyaboy1]

Sapp has been draining pretty much all his threes in warmups at Kenner, and has looked better in games. Pat's three point shot has been very shaky so far in Kenner, to be kind. I'm hoping Thornton would win the third guard spot, but I doubt he will.

Basically, Cook and Owens were extremely efficient offensive players, shooting good percentages from 2 (68% for Owens!), 3 (44% for Cook), and the line (85% for Owens). Bowman shouldn't be too much of a loss - I'm not that confident in Pat, but either way there shouldn't be that much of a drop off there.

Of course we COULD get away with not replacing any three point shooting. But that only works with massive jumps in other guys shooting percentages from 2 (and Cook and Owens were good there too), despite the fact that defenses will be sagging more.

Last year we had the 11th most efficient offense in the country. I wouldn't at all be surprised to see that drop. However, I expect our defense and rebounding to make big jumps, so I still expect an improved team.

Discussion-wise though, this is certainly played out. I agree with SF that perhaps more interesting now is who wins the third guard spot (I have no idea) and how minutes break down at the 3.

[GIGAFAN99]

The really weird part of this debate is that last year JTIII was playing with Esherick's recruits largely.

This year the remaining holdover recruits are Jeff, Roy, Tyler, and Sead.

So JTIII has brought in:

Two heady point guards (Rivers, Wallace)

One fast combo guard (Sapp)

One three-point specialist (Thornton)

FIVE athletic, versatile players that can shoot some, pass some, board some, and get to the basket a lot (Ewing, Spann, Macklin, Summers, and Egerson)

Now I might be going out on limb here but I think JTIII probably recruited these players because he wants to...what are the words...USE THEM. And maybe since they're so different, last year's team was used that way because that's what he HAD, not what he wanted.

JTIII has recruited guys like Jeff and Tyler more than guys like Ashanti and Owens. Yeah there's Thornton, but more of the recruits are guys who can shoot the three decently but their game is more athletic. So not only do I think we shouldn't look like last year, I absolutely think we won't. Last year was JTIII using experienced players who adapted to the system.

This year will be JTIII basketball. We'll see versatile athletes running a precise offense. I don't think we will see a lot of settling for threes like last year whether we think we should or not. They'll shoot them within the flow of the offense but "standing around" because the defense is "packed in" (and apparently therefore impenetrable from inside 20 feet : won't happen.

[hoyaboy1]

You've got who recruited who mixed up - Thornton was actually an Esh recruit, although to some extent JTIII had to decide to keep him. It's also probably wrong to assume that Spann, Egerson and Sapp were his real target recruits; it was just the best he could get on short notice. But JTIII also tried to recruit Bawinkel (a shooter), has gotten Freeman (one of the best 3 point shooters in his class), and is going hard after Wright (another big time shooter).

I'm also confused as to why Wallace is a "heady PG" rather than a shooter; he could really be listed as either. I'm also wary of your description that we have so many guys who are good at getting to the basket, since it hasn't happened.

Like any coach, I'm sure JTIII would like a balanced team, with penetration, outside shooting, and post-up play. Right now we are very strong at the third, but questionable at the first and second. The college three is ridiculously close; I'd like to see it moved back. But until it is, a coach is a fool not to try to utilize it. Claiming that our loss of 3 point shooting from Owens and Cook won't hurt is pure ignorance, and that's what you seem to do doing.

[PopeJohn2]

mciguy said:

popejohn2 said:

I don't think its worth even debating this issue anymore nor is it worth trying to convince the naysayers. Going into last season there were an equal amount of doubters who thought the Hoyas were going to take a step or two back and miss the tourney again. A couple even predicted the Hoyas to have a losing record in the Big East. You can't change some people's minds on this.

I will say this...perhaps if the Hoyas hadn't taken 21 unnecessary three-point shots against Florida and instead pounded the ball more inside to Roy or even Jeff maybe Gtown goes on to win the championship. Or maybe instead of shooting threes all game long if the Hoyas had players with the abiity, toughness and courage to drive to the hole more instead to score or draw foul calls maybe Gtown goes on to win the championship. Being three-point happy (which is often "lazy basketball") can have a negative effect, ya know. Especially when the shots aren't falling.

1. No naysayer here. The topic is question marks for the 2007 season. Citing potenial weaknesses does not = naysaying.

2. The difference between us being good next year and being DOMINANT is finding 2 good outside shooters/guards (spot up long 2's or 3's) or one Reddick-like shooter/guard. Without that, we will just be a good team. With that, we will be dominant.

3. If we pounded the ball inside more vs. Florida, perhaps Roy or Jeff would have fouled out or been on the bench a lot more? No need to play monday morning quarterback mci. We had a good game plan and were dominating Florida for much of the 1st half by hitting the outside shot. This year the most important variable we will have to work on is developing our guard play from outside.

4. Foul shooting, especially Jeff.

5. Foul trouble for Roy and Jeff, hence the need for a balanced attack with guard play.

[RDF]

Everyone wants to talk about offense, but to me the question I have regards around 2 things and one is critical to the development of the program under III

1. Defense---this team has more athleticism then any GU team in a long time--which means there is no reason to not be an improved defensive team and create some offense with better defense. It should use more pressure on perimeter defense and even full court at times.

2. The most important question I have for next year--will III use his bench more? Especially early in season. You can't recruit top talent and sit it on the bench collecting dust, best way to learn is getting out there and playing, and outside of Roy, Jeff, Jonathan, and Jessie, nobody has proven themselves worthy of guaranteed playing time/heavy minutes. Just want to see more kids playing early in season and then let them play their way into more minutes/less minutes based on their performance, but to never give them run early in year is not helping the team for latter stages and when you play deeper teams.

Offensively we'll be fine and Jeff/Roy will attract so much attention that there will be plenty of open jumpers--and from 3pt distance too--and the roster will be full of guys prepared to shoot and knock down shots--they do have to prove it in games, but I'm more then confident that Hoyas will score--and run a lot more in transition this year due to having athletes that can finish and make better decisions with the ball.

[MCIGuy]

hoyaboy1 said:

You've got who recruited who mixed up - Thornton was actually an Esh recruit, although to some extent JTIII had to decide to keep him.

Nope. Thornton was III's first recruit. And it made a lot of headlines because Thornton at the time was a top 40/top 50 recruit according to most recruiting sites. Esh had nothing to do with Thornton going to Gtown (Thornton committed to GU late during the summer of 2004----months after Esh had been dismissed), even if Esh had tried recruiting the kid himself (which, unlike with Egerson, I don't think he did) when he was still coach.

It's also probably wrong to assume that Spann, Egerson and Sapp were his real target recruits; it was just the best he could get on short notice.

Short notice? Most of those guys were early signings (recruits for III's second year).


Egerson was a player the Hoyas didn't really need after landing the commitments/signatures of Spann and Thornton. But III went after him anyway and offered him a scholarship. Spann, on the other hand, was a Top 75 recruit who had drawn the interest of several big time programs. When III was first hired it was reported that one of his earliest trips outside of the DC area that he made for recruiting purposes was to Spann's high school.

Spann, like Egerson and Thornton, was a recruit III got BEFORE the early signing period. There wasn't any desperation there. He could have easily have held off until the late signing period if those three guys weren't the type of players he were looking for. Are you mistaking these guys as players III was trying to bring in at the last minute for his first year as Hoya coach? That would have ben impossible since these high school players were of the 2005 class and III's first season as coach would have been '04-'05. III recruited these guys because he wanted them. He wouldn't be stupid to bring in three to four bodies in one class if he didn't think any of them had a legit chance to become a good to very good college player.

Sapp committed to GU shortly after the early signing period (in the fall of 2004) was over. That also suggests he wasn't some last minute decision to fill the roster. III could have easily waited for the spring of 2005 to find a player more suited for his style if Sapp himself ddi not make a good fit. III could have easily found one dimensional, spot up shooters across the country. Those types of guys can be found on numerous mid-major teams and most weren't even ranked in the top 150 of their respective classes. But III did not recruit pure shooters with the exception of Thornton. He recruited athletes who could drive and explode to the basket. Surely he must have an offensive scheme in mind to best take advantage of their talents.

But JTIII also tried to recruit Bawinkel (a shooter)

And from some reports the Hoyas could have had Bawinkel. But the vibe they gave off was that they were more interested in Duke Crews instead (another player who is known more for his athleticism and explosiveness than his shooting) and held off from really offering Bawinkel a schollie when he made his visit.

I'm also wary of your description that we have so many guys who are good at getting to the basket, since it hasn't happened.

Funny. he guys who can get t the basket haven't either been with the team as of yet (ewing, Summers) or rarely got a chance to play last season (Egerson, Spann to a lesser extent Sapp). So why don't we wait a bit?

And as for DJ's shooting so great from the two point range, well, that simply proves there was a problem. Because DJ was more comfortable with standing behind the three point line jacking up shots all day. And if he was off from that distance he was essentially useless because he refused to do anything else (and I'm as big of a fan of DJ as anyone). In preseason mags III commented that Owens had to see himself as more than just a shooter. His father, JT, said on his radio programming that if DJ rebounded better and took the ball to the hole regularly he would be an NBA player. Something tells me then that the coaches wanted Owens to do something other than try to be a poor, poor's man JJ Redick

Claiming that our loss of 3 point shooting from Owens and Cook won't hurt is pure ignorance, and that's what you seem to do doing.

You're suggesting Giga is spreading ignorance and yet you just made plenty of mistakes yourself in terms of who III recruited and the circumstances under which he recruited certain players. Good grief.

[GIGAFAN99]

hoyaboy1 said:

You've got who recruited who mixed up - Thornton was actually an Esh recruit, although to some extent JTIII had to decide to keep him. It's also probably wrong to assume that Spann, Egerson and Sapp were his real target recruits; it was just the best he could get on short notice. But JTIII also tried to recruit Bawinkel (a shooter), has gotten Freeman (one of the best 3 point shooters in his class), and is going hard after Wright (another big time shooter).

I'm also confused as to why Wallace is a "heady PG" rather than a shooter; he could really be listed as either. I'm also wary of your description that we have so many guys who are good at getting to the basket, since it hasn't happened.

Like any coach, I'm sure JTIII would like a balanced team, with penetration, outside shooting, and post-up play. Right now we are very strong at the third, but questionable at the first and second. The college three is ridiculously close; I'd like to see it moved back. But until it is, a coach is a fool not to try to utilize it. Claiming that our loss of 3 point shooting from Owens and Cook won't hurt is pure ignorance, and that's what you seem to do doing.

Confused as to why the heady guy who plays point guard is listed as a "heady point guard?" Well that's because it is his primary role on the team. Sorry if he can shoot as well.

Oh and here's Austin's summary from Scout:

"Strong wing player is capable of doing a lot of things on the court. He can score it in bunches, has tons of composure and his body gets him places inside. Outstanding talent and big time producer. "

Hmmm, sounds like he's an all-around player and not just some three-point specialist like our boy Owens.

But why wouldn't we want Owens clones? He's the most "efficient" player in history according to the numbers we fed into the computer. And that computer has Notre Dame as the sixth most efficient offense in the nation. Where will they hang the Elite Eight banner?

Owens was statistically "efficient" because he hit threes well and never took a two that wasn't a breakaway or a lay-up. So yeah, he's "efficient" but was he effective? When he wasn't on from outside he was a backboard on the perimeter. So Owens was effective sometimes with his game but he was far from the "perfect sixth man" or even something we need to recreate in order to contend. The guys we have are more all-arounders who can put pressure on defenses to make plays in many other ways (I'll make the assumption that JTIII didn't misjudge ther talent on ALL counts). So we won't replace his "efficiency" but I think we can easily replace his effectiveness.

Cook we'll miss because he was a great senior leader and an all-around good player. But we don't want Sapp to try to fit his game into Cook's mold just because we had a very good year with that game plan. So while I think we'll need to make up for what we lose with Ashanti, we won't have to do it EXACTLY the same way Cook did it.

Overall, the key to the Hoyas' dominance will be better rebounding, forcing more turnovers, and playing better interior defense. If opponents shoot under 40% against the Hoyas, we'll be celebrating. Jeff's free throw shooting will be big too. I think all of those will mean more than a search for the replacement for a solid but limited sixth man.

[hoyaboy1]

I made one mistake, with Thornton - I thought he had committed earlier, for some reason. Most of the rest of your post disagrees with me without really making sense.

I said Spann, Sapp, and Egerson were "short notice." What that meant is that JTIII hadn't had full time to recruit that class, and I'm sure would have rather had guys that had similar abilities but were also better shooters (ie Freeman, Wright) if he had more time to build relationships. When you look at who he targeted in the classes he had more time to work with, it has been almost exclusively guys that are higher ranked and more talented. So I don't think it is at all absurd to think that the 2005 class wasn't want JTIII would have ideally gone after.

Your "argument" with regards to me saying that I'm concerned about our ability to penetrate since "it hasn't happened yet" is comical. I say I'm not sure it will happen, since I havent seen proof yet - and your retort is that we "should wait a bit." Well, uh, that's what I said. Thanks for an unecessary paragraph though.

Your strawman about it being better for Owens to drive more isn't at all relevant to anything I said.

As for Bawinkel, you said he didn't come because he thought we were more inetrested in Crews. Maybe. Other people say we wanted him and lost out. Maybe. There also wasn't really a scholarship. Either way, all I ever said that was JTIII recruited him. Again, thanks for an unecessary paragraph in which you try to dispute what I've said without actaully doing so.

The idea that we don't need or look for shooting is simply absurd, even moreso than MCIs constant desire to find arguments where there aren't any.

GIGA - yea, I agree. I specifically said a number of times that I expect our team to be better overall, if not quite as good offensively. Like MCI, however, you are confusing me saying that Cook and Owens helped the offense with saying that they were perfect. That is called a strawman argument. I say Owens was an efficient offensive player; you say it would be better if he could drive too. I say Cook was an efficient offensive player; you say Sapp doesn't have to play exactly like him. I say Freeman is a very good 3 point shooter; you say he is good all-around, not just a 3 point specialist. None of that is responsive to what I have said; you are responding to arguments I'm not making.

I don't want Sapp to try to play like Cook; he'd suck if he did, But I want him to be able to hit threes if someone sags off and he is wide open. If he can't it hurts the offense. Not much to it.

[GIGAFAN99]

So if all you are saying is true, you agree with me when I say the following:

"We do not need to replace our three-point shooting to be an effective offense."

Correct? I think our guys will be able to hit occasional threes of course, but the argument is that we need to replace our perimeter shooting. So you agree that we don't then right?

[hoyaboy1]

That's so horribly vague that it's hard to answer. I dont think anyone has ever made the argument that we need to "replace" our 3 point shooting - assuming by replace you mean all of it. But based on Sapp and Ewing's history, I'm worried that we might barely replace any.

We can obviously still be an "effective offense," depending of course on your definition. Without major improvements in shooting from Sapp, Ewing, and say Crawford (if he were to win the 3rd guard spot), I don't see how our offensive will be as efficient as it was last year. If we took as many 3s as we did last year, we likely wouldn't be playing in anything close to the ideal manner. But if Ewing and Sapp combine for 60 3PA, the same is true. They need to find a happy medium; I'm just not yet confident we have the shooting to get there.

[SFHoya99]

Sigh, I love how Giga can only remember a static offense where everyone stood around and shot threes.

Seriously, Giga, I doubt you actually watched a game last year. We took very few desperation threes last year. And the offense didn't struggle that often last year.

And, MCI, Hoyaboy has a very good point that we haven't seen a lot of these penetration skills you've talked of. You talked up Owens' penetration skills for years and we've seen a cumulative two drives out of him, I think. You and Giga aren't even listening anymore, you're just ranting. Giga has this world where we took desperation threes all season and did nothing else and you live in this world where we're going to play like a strange mixture of Rick Pitino's Kentucky Wildcats and the Alonzo Mourning Hoyas.

We're gonna need to hit some outside shots. We lost two of our best shooters. Of course that is a concern. Now watch as MCI translates "concern" into "insurmountable edge that will doom the team" so he can argue it won't doom the team. What is so freaking offensive to you about being concerned that we lost two of the Top 5 all-time outside shooters in Hoya History?

[GIGAFAN99]

We took plenty of threes within the offense.

But we sure did not take all of our threes within the offense. And we certainly took a lot of bad threes. I was at the WVU and UConn games. Both were epic clankfests where we just kept trying to shoot our way out of a slump.

Great plan. It worked well both times. The thing is I don't think we had another option with our limited personnel. This year we do and we should use it rather than praying for rain.

This is typical of this board. Last year all it was was "Ashanti Cook is the king of the garbage three" and "He is not Big East material." Now we can't live without him! (Note: sorry, I didn't realize that this is only mild concern and not "dooming the team." I apologize since everyone continues to argue the point and PopeJohn2 mentioned it three times as the #1 concern that I though people were really worried.)

How about that Cook is a very good player who has another different but talented player behind him in Sapp. And Owens was a strong shooting sixth man. It's like the Bulls returning Jordan and Pippen and being afraid that the team will fold without John Paxson. Trust me, we'll find someone to replace the irreplaceable Owens. It's not that big a deal.

[PopeJohn2]

gigafan99 said:

This is typical of this board. Last year all it was was "Ashanti Cook is the king of the garbage three" and "He is not Big East material." Now we can't live without him! (Note: sorry, I didn't realize that this is only mild concern and not "dooming the team." I apologize since everyone continues to argue the point and PopeJohn2 mentioned it three times as the #1 concern that I though people were really worried.)

I dont know what board you were reading last year but I dont think there was much complaining about Ashanti.

In fact, I think we were all surprised and relieved that Cook and Owens (and of course Roy) blossomed last year. Safe to say that if Cook and Owens didnt improve, notwithstanding Roys development, we would have probably not made the tournament (think losses to SJU, USF and Duke). The blossoming of those guys were the difference between NIT and NCAA.

What I am trying to say is that the big question mark in my mind is who is going to fill the shoes of our outside (long 2's and 3's) shooters this year. Wallace hopefully will carry some of the load, but as far as I can tell, there is no heir apparent. I for one hopes someone emerges. But Cook and Owens were both seniors+ and its less likely that an underclassman suddenly develops a stroke. But heres to praying.