SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jul 22, 2006 14:25:34 GMT -5
I never said Ashanti was king of the garbage three. Find me a place where I said that or that he "wasn't BE material" and I'll shut up.
People are listing this as the biggest question. That's all. No one has said we're going to miss the NCAAs. But very few teams make National Championship runs without a well-rounded game. And outside shooting is one aspect that, on paper, seems to be lacking.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jul 22, 2006 14:55:24 GMT -5
I'm not saying you said it but believe me, it was said.
I think this is where we differ. What you said is right. We need a well-rounded game.
But we didn't have that last year. We were very three-point heavy, trailing only WVU, Notre Dame, Villanova, and Lousiville in 3-pt shots as a percentage of total field goals taken in the Big East. We were in the same category as four teams with about 1/2 a post player between them despite having two second-team All-Big East big men on our team. And that also led us to be 14th in free throws attempts depsite our match-up advantages. That's why I think this concern is overblown. We could stand to lose some of our three-point shooting to actually get to a reasonable level of reliance on the three based on our current lineup. And right now we still have two legitimate outside shooters at least plus any improvement from our other players.
That's my point. I think last year we shot too many threes and if we shot that many this year it would be even worse because of how good Roy and Jeff are going to be plus our additional depth inside.
So it's not that I don't think we need balance, I just think we're more balanced after losing a guy like Owens. That's not his fault, he was a very good outside shooter and that was his game. But I think replacing a guy like Owens with some combination of Summers, Spann, Egerson, Crawford...guys who will take threes but won't just take threes will be more beneficial to the team.
As for Sapp he shot 21% from three but 60% from two in his limited time. I think he'll bump up his three-point shooting but I still think with his finishing ability and additional experience he'll shoot more twos versus threes than Ashanti and that's good because it's his game.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jul 22, 2006 15:08:47 GMT -5
The problem, Giga, isn't the number of threes you make, but the % of them that I'm concerned about.
Roy may come out and beat BE double teams all day. Some big men are so good they can. An opposing coach's first response on Roy is to drop down and double team, pack the box. And it'll work against us.
There are ways to beat it, but one of the easiest ways is simply to bury a couple of uncontested threes. Whatever the defense gives you, you've got to convert. I know everyone wants to "impose their will" and I agree, that will work on Rutgers. But it won't work on Florida, or UNC, or UConn in a normal year. If pounding it inside isn't working, you have to try other things. And three point shots are one of those.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2006 15:30:30 GMT -5
Speaking of Florida. I don't exactly remember anyone beside Humphrey who was much a threat from beyond the thee opint line, and the Gators did OK.
I think we will be fine with the shooters we have. Of course, it's nice to have several players who can shoot the three, but, what we need most is to maintain and improve our defense. Defense wins games. It was Florida's ability to intimidate anyone who drove into the lane that won them the NCAA title.
Anyway, just my thoughts
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jul 22, 2006 16:01:40 GMT -5
The problem, Giga, isn't the number of threes you make, but the % of them that I'm concerned about. Roy may come out and beat BE double teams all day. Some big men are so good they can. An opposing coach's first response on Roy is to drop down and double team, pack the box. And it'll work against us. There are ways to beat it, but one of the easiest ways is simply to bury a couple of uncontested threes. Whatever the defense gives you, you've got to convert. I know everyone wants to "impose their will" and I agree, that will work on Rutgers. But it won't work on Florida, or UNC, or UConn in a normal year. If pounding it inside isn't working, you have to try other things. And three point shots are one of those. I agree with that but I also agree with the inverse of that which is if threes aren't working we'll have to try something different. I don't think we did that a lot last year and I think a lot of that was personnel and the development of Roy and Jeff. I also agree imposing our will won't work against UNC or Florida. The good news is we (probably though the schedule isn't out) don't play them until late in the tournament. I don't think we should be so quick against Louisville for example to allow them to dictate our offense. This team can attack and throw one off the board just to draw a foul or get a putback. That wasn't the case last year. Roy and Jeff are veterans now. Think about what the observer who mistook Roy for Oden said about him "giving fits to Big Baby." That's exactly the type of player that would neutralize Roy the sophomore. Roy the junior will eat that guy alive...and I'm not even sure he'll play anyone of Big Baby's caliber all year. Some ball movement and a late double team and its an old-fashioned three points against a lot of post players. I actually think this team can impose its will pretty far into the tournament. But I also think someone will step up to hit threes along with Jeff and Jon (there are just too many potential candidates for one not to emerge) and that's going to be more than enough for this squad.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Jul 22, 2006 19:43:21 GMT -5
Speaking of "imposing one's will", last year's team controlled the tempo in almost every single half of the entire season. As much as I would like to credit our players... and they do deserve a lot of credit -- I think that was due primarily to JT3 and his staff. And it will be again this year. This team will control the tempo and impose it's will.
Also, I agree with GIGAFAN: "But I also think someone will step up to hit threes along with Jeff and Jon (there are just too many potential candidates for one not to emerge) and that's going to be more than enough for this squad."
I don't think any of us wants to see the THREE as the PRIMARY weapon for this offense. We just want to know we have multiple guys who can hit a fairly high percentage when they are open. There will be a LOT of open threes this year due to the inside strength of Roy, Jeff, Pat and maybe others. But clearly, the first option has to be going inside, getting our points and fouls -- and hitting our free throws.
And Sapp has already shown he can drive better than any Hoya in recent years. That will open things up too.
Damn.... isn't it time for the season to start yet?!?!
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jul 23, 2006 14:22:49 GMT -5
Next time I'll try to leave it to an unnecessary sentence to point how wrong you were. Is that better? JTIII, if you read comments by student athletes, recruits a whole lot of players most of whom III has varying levels of interest. Word I got was the Hoyas could have had Bawinkle if they wanted him but were more interested in Crews. That could be wrong, but that was what was blowing in the wind at the time. Ooops. I worte a paragraph again. My bad.
More revisionist nonsense. If I was looking for arguments I would use tactics like you and a couple of other guys when you write stuff such as "trying to spread ignorance" and worse things. You don't see me get personal in my counters and I try to leave out the sarcasm. That's more your game, sir. I simply point out the flaws I see in your argument and/or your knowledge of the situation.
And since you always like to throw the charge that I'm making up arguments, why don't you look in the mirror. No one said we did not need outside shooting. Just that we didn't necessarily need to be as good from three point territory as last season to be effective this upcoming year. That is all.
]
Again neither of us claimed you said Owens was perfect. However we did accuse you of overstating Owens' importance. DJ did things better than some of the current players could. And some of the current players have strengths that DJ did not. III has to adjust the team to fit its strength and in his season wrapup interview with HoyaReport he said he would do that very thing. The problem, as GIGA and I see it, is that you and others feel that the Hoyas must play the same style (being too reliant on three-point shooting IMO) to have a similiar good season in '06-'07.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jul 23, 2006 14:29:58 GMT -5
The problem, Giga, isn't the number of threes you make, but the % of them that I'm concerned about. Roy may come out and beat BE double teams all day. Some big men are so good they can. An opposing coach's first response on Roy is to drop down and double team, pack the box. And it'll work against us. There are ways to beat it, but one of the easiest ways is simply to bury a couple of uncontested threes. Whatever the defense gives you, you've got to convert. I know everyone wants to "impose their will" and I agree, that will work on Rutgers. But it won't work on Florida, or UNC, or UConn in a normal year. If pounding it inside isn't working, you have to try other things. And three point shots are one of those. True. But unfortunately last season rarely were "those other things" some important facets such as driving to the rack regularly during games, picking up FT attempts regulary by pounding the ball inside or getting out on the fast break for easy buckets. When we do those things as well as shoot well from the three point line, then we will have a true balanced offense and a much more efficient offense to boot. Last season's offense was lacking a "mid-game" attack IMO.
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Post by stafford72 on Jul 24, 2006 8:53:47 GMT -5
A lot of good points being made here, but no need to get "bitchy" with each other. Cook was a fine college player and had a knack for hitting the somewhat forced off balance shot to save a bad possession. He was a heady ball handler and played well particulrly late in the season. He also had a number of "off" games where he was a total non-factor and was somewhat villified here at times because of it. The same can be said for Owens who was often either very good or very bad.
Certainly, with the departures, our 3-point shooting for this season is a concern, especially given that with JTIII's offense it is such an important factor. It remains to be seen if our coach will adapt to the new player personnel and change his offense accordingly. We appear to have more players who will drive to the basket with some hope of success--Suommers, Ewing, Spann, Rivers, Sapp. The last few years we were particularly inept at this and consequently almost never got oup opposition in foul trouble. Our games were remarkable for a lack of free throws on both sides.
JTIII has also not shown any inclination to this point to expand his bench. This season it appears that he finally has the resources to go to more players and perhaps increase pressure and substitute much more freely. He conversely has the luxury of playing hot front court players more when they are in foul trouble simply because he should have compentent replacements available. What actually ensues remains to be seen. That is what makes the sport interesting. Let's hope for the best.
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