RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Jan 16, 2006 17:55:25 GMT -5
Macklin is not a 5. He doesn't play center in high school. He knows that if he goes to the NBA he's not going to be a center. He's almost assuredly not planning on coming here and playing center.
It seems like everybody wants to play Small Forward today, except for the 7' guys. Macklin, Dajuan, Jeff, and Pat are all going to be vying for 4 minutes at small forward next year. Not to mention Jefferson if he comes. Everybody wants to show that they have perimeter skills because that's what the NBA looks for nowadays, and everybody wants to improve their chances to make it to the league. Next year we're going to have 1 true center, 4 wannabe-power forwards and nobody wanting to play powerforward. Somebody will end up at power forward, it'll just depend on who's game lends itself most to being a Princeton style 4 man. My guess is Macklin. Jeff's the best player overall and will start at the 3 even though he's still more of a powerforward. He definitely wants to transition more to the perimeter, and we just have to hope he develops those skills further this summer.
Also, I find it funny that just days ago Carlos from HR, who has seen Jefferson more than any other Hoya fan I would guess, was suggesting that Jefferson could play some center for us, and now we've all got him pegged as our 2guard if he comes. These guys have a lot of versatility and it's tough to see who'll play where. JTIII has a lot of options because everyone can play multiple positions. That's why I figure he probably tries to just put the best 5 out there.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 16, 2006 18:23:12 GMT -5
On offense, does the four in offense look any different than the three? Jeff and Brandon seem to play the exact same position. I think that is one of the reasons that we can recruit these guys. Add in that when we have a player capable of it, the center also plays like that, and we can have three 3's on the floor.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jan 16, 2006 18:35:48 GMT -5
There's a strong cult of Roy on this board that thinks he can do no wrong. I like Roy, but after watching him sit versus SJU for defensive reasons, watching Pittnsogle light up all our centers for 20+ and watching Hilton Armstrong do the much of the same, I can see where a strong defensive, rebounding player could take significant time. It was #5 center overall, he was picked #27 amongst all players. Do no wrong? I think he can do wrong but considering how many wrongs he righted during the off-season, he might be able to improve like say, oh, Pittsnogle or Armstrong who are two senior pivot men easily playing the best basketball of their careers after years of development. I'd say it's more likely than a non-center we know so much about that we're guessing his friggin' weight taking his minutes. I trust Macklin is good and will get minutes, but this guy is becoming pretty legendary before ever suiting up.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Jan 16, 2006 19:05:07 GMT -5
I pretty much agree, in the Princeton the center plays a non-traditional role most of the time, so it's not like being a 5 limits your opportunity to handle in the high post or even out above the 3 point line. But for some reason, a lot of todays players are fixated on position, 3's, 4's, 5's. Duncan refuses to consider himself a 5, always wants to be a 4. 7 footers like Dirk and KG refuse to play center--KG even goes so far as denying that he's actually 7 feet--because they want to play away from the basket. And young players emulatethe pros--case in point, Macklin who looks up to/emulates Garnett. They want to follow the lead of the pros and get it in their heads that they want to be a "3" when really they could easily play the Georgetown 5. That's why I definitely think you'll see III play Macklin at 5 at times, even though Vernon would probably say he wants to be a small forward (since again he seems to follow Garnett's lead).
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jan 16, 2006 19:29:42 GMT -5
Listen, I'm not saying Macklin will beat out Roy, but if he is as good as the hype, I think there is a pretty good chance he's a better defender and rebounder, and maybe a better player. There's a strong cult of Roy on this board that thinks he can do no wrong. I like Roy, but after watching him sit versus SJU for defensive reasons, watching Pittnsogle light up all our centers for 20+ and watching Hilton Armstrong do the much of the same, I can see where a strong defensive, rebounding player could take significant time. You're still just mad that Roy has, as you kept writing earlier, gotten in the way of your boy, Jeff. Roy's upside is no joke, limited mobility or not. NBA GMs would have knocked each other over to get the Post '88 Olympics-NBA Sabonis. Sabonis had no mobility whatsoever when playing with Portland and smaller, quicker centers went around him routinely. But you could not teach his size, skills and touch. The same with Roy. He has made greater strides than anyone else and who is to say he will stop making even further strides? And lets clear something up---when Roy left the WVU game with over 8 minutes left he led all scorers with 16 points and was never put back in the game. He played at most 25 minutes that game while Pittsnogle went almost the full 40. So don't blame Roy for Pittsnogle scoring spree when I bet most of his points came with Roy on the bench or when there was a switch and Pittsnogle posted up DJ or Ashanti. Not to mention Pittsnogle scored a lot of his points by standing thirty feet away from the basket and firing away. Roy is a TRUE center which means he isn't used to guarding players way out there. At the next level he won't even have to deal with that. But getting back to Roy's minutes and 16 points, if I play devil's advocate and say that Roy got lit up by Pittsnogle then I could also claim Pittsnogle got lit up by 19 year old Roy. By the way Pittsnogle has put some major numbers against some quicker and more explosive big men, the type you seem to prefer. So what's the difference? As for Armstrong Roy simply got schooled big time in that first half. He took a beating. But he came back in that second half strong, proving that he wasn't going to get down mentally on himself like RBB or Wesley would after a disastrous first half. He went 6 for 9 in the game against UConn and its frontline. You know what the three misses were. A first half turnaround jumpshot was blocked back in his face because he held on the ball too long and allowed Armstrong to send it back in his face. The second miss was a blown followup dunk that he simply screwed up on (as Hoya fans we are used to seeing our players do that). And the last miss came in the second half when he blew by Armstrong with a dribble fro beyond the three point line, but underestimated Armstrong's ability to recover and his reach for a swat. The move was great. Armstrong's block was even better. Next time Roy should not extend his arm and the ball so far out from his body because that gave Armstrong a clean angle. That being said just based upon Roy’s recovery I’m sure if Gtown and UConn played again the outcome of the matchup between the two players would be different. In fact the two went toe-to-toe five more times in the season, I seriously think it would get to a point that Armstrong would be kind of helpless guarding Roy inside. Because when Roy gets the ball and posts up his man and gets the ball at the right time he could drop that hook over Armstrong and Boone all game long. The key though is for him to get the ball from his teammates and then for him to just look to score. Point is you can have Armstrong all you want. But any NBA GM would look at the two and say clearly the upside is with the guy wearing the Georgetown uniform. A few of us have already discussed the reasons why Roy was pull from the St John’s game quite a few times and you read those threads so there’s no need to go over it again. As for the cult of personality Roy only got such a following after he proved some of you folks wrong and started producing immediately after the tipoff of this season’s first game. No one said though that he was a finished product. We all know he still has a lot to improve upon.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jan 16, 2006 19:32:33 GMT -5
I pretty much agree, in the Princeton the center plays a non-traditional role most of the time, so it's not like being a 5 limits your opportunity to handle in the high post or even out above the 3 point line. But for some reason, a lot of todays players are fixated on position, 3's, 4's, 5's. Duncan refuses to consider himself a 5, always wants to be a 4. 7 footers like Dirk and KG refuse to play center--KG even goes so far as denying that he's actually 7 feet--because they want to play away from the basket. And young players emulatethe pros--case in point, Macklin who looks up to/emulates Garnett. They want to follow the lead of the pros That's why I love Roy. He actually wants to be a REAL five. Of course...he has no choice. He can't play the three.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 16, 2006 20:39:57 GMT -5
Let's see what heresy I've said:
1. Roy will likely maintain his starting role. 2. There is a greater than 1% chance that Macklin beats him out. 3. Roy will not go in the Top 5 of any draft; if so, it will be considered a mistake in retrospect. 4. Roy's upside is a shorter version of Yao Ming, but he has to improve to get there. 5. Roy will play in the NBA. 6. Rivals.com profiles and NBAdraft.net mocks suck. 7. Roy can be exploited defensively by quick centers. 8. As a matter of course, I can see matchups where Macklin will be a better option next year.
So I'm lost at what your rant had to do with anything. I'll make this clear one last time -- I think Roy is a good player. I defended him from Ignatius and defended him all last year. But now this little cult has grown where he can do no wrong. There's an expectation that he'll continue to improve at the rate he did over last summer. Silly me if I disagree with those two ideas.
As for NBA projections, Armstrong is only 3 inches shorter than Roy. He's three years older as well, but I find it hard to see Roy making up the athleticism. Maybe I'm wrong. But your spin on the UConn game is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Contrary to this board's belief, we do have players that can score. And I'm glad Roy is as efficient as he is. But he was abused repeatedly on defense (there was a reason he didn't play). If you give it all right back, it isn't helping. And there is ZERO excuse for his rebounding total in the WVU game.
And so, because of that, could I have seen a player who could handle Armstrong and rebound having stolen quite a few of Roy's minutes in the last two games? Yes, I could have. What's wrong with that, other than that I'm apparently butchering everyone's favorite sacred cow?
I really don't like criticizing Roy because he's done so well, but I think it is better to be realistic.
As for Roy and the outside game, remember his knickname was "Sha-Dirk". Roy wants to play outside. He's just a realist.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jan 16, 2006 20:47:46 GMT -5
I think we should invite Ron over here to steer us back on course re: Roy. Care to change your pre-season projection, MCI? LOL. You're one rebound short.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jan 16, 2006 22:02:46 GMT -5
Let's see what heresy I've said: 1. Roy will likely maintain his starting role. 2. There is a greater than 1% chance that Macklin beats him out. 3. Roy will not go in the Top 5 of any draft; if so, it will be considered a mistake in retrospect. 4. Roy's upside is a shorter version of Yao Ming, but he has to improve to get there. 5. Roy will play in the NBA. 6. Rivals.com profiles and NBAdraft.net mocks suck. 7. Roy can be exploited defensively by quick centers. 8. As a matter of course, I can see matchups where Macklin will be a better option next year. So I'm lost at what your rant had to do with anything. I'll make this clear one last time -- I think Roy is a good player. I defended him from Ignatius and defended him all last year. But now this little cult has grown where he can do no wrong. There's an expectation that he'll continue to improve at the rate he did over last summer. Silly me if I disagree with those two ideas. As for NBA projections, Armstrong is only 3 inches shorter than Roy. He's three years older as well, but I find it hard to see Roy making up the athleticism. Maybe I'm wrong. But your spin on the UConn game is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Contrary to this board's belief, we do have players that can score. And I'm glad Roy is as efficient as he is. But he was abused repeatedly on defense (there was a reason he didn't play). If you give it all right back, it isn't helping. And there is ZERO excuse for his rebounding total in the WVU game. And so, because of that, could I have seen a player who could handle Armstrong and rebound having stolen quite a few of Roy's minutes in the last two games? Yes, I could have. What's wrong with that, other than that I'm apparently butchering everyone's favorite sacred cow? I really don't like criticizing Roy because he's done so well, but I think it is better to be realistic. As for Roy and the outside game, remember his knickname was "Sha-Dirk". Roy wants to play outside. He's just a realist. Your position on Roy versus WVU or Roy versus Armstrong is well-taken. Roy has to improve on interior defense. Your position on Roy versus "The Big Hypothetical" is my beef. I decided to check out the #12 prospect for this year. His name is Mario Chalmers. You may know him as a guy averaging 8 points and 3 assists on 38% shooting in 20 minutes. Or how about a "better" prospect like Josh McRoberts? Mr. #2 in the nation is worth 7.5ppg 4.6rg in 23 minutes. I love high prospects and many of these guys play big minutes for their teams immediately. I just have a hard time believing he can match Roy's production immediately or more importantly that JTIII will project that he will and start him. Roy has to learn interior defense. Macklin has to learn everything.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jan 16, 2006 22:26:34 GMT -5
Let's see what heresy I've said: What I wrote had nothing to do with those points, SF. Instead it was in defense of the games you chose to use as examples of Roy's bad play. Read above. And its interesting you suggest I'm ranting when anytime something positive is written about Roy you seem to go out of you way to suggest something negative about his play. So I guess its fair to say you you are trying to form your own cult of personality against Roy? Hey, I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong about some of Roy's flaws. But when you do things such as imply that Pittsnogle lit Roy up, don't get upset if I counter it with some left out facts. Stop. You don't have to defend your opinions with constant reminders of how much you like him and respect his growth. I'm sure you're telling the truth about that. No one is suggesting you're the next Ignatious. But my post has nothing to do with how you feel about his game overall. Its about how I feel you consantly point out his negatives, exaggerate about how bad he looked on the court, or assign blame to him. It goes back to the very first games when instead of being satisfied that Roy was the leading (and needed in the JMU game) scorer for the Hoyas in victories, you were more preoccupied with the idea that he was hurting the team and hurting Jeff's game by his being at the center spot rather than Green. I'll give you the athleticism. But he'll find in the NBA guys with his size, slight build and athleticism are a dime a dozen. With all due respect to Armstrong he won't ever have the build to push around anyone at the next level. He's a center and has center height but he has the build of an NBA small forward. And three years in age is a huge difference as is one guy being a senior who has been involved in some of the biggest games in the last three plus years and practiced with some of the best young NBA players currently in the NBA. Hibbert's upside is higher. Period. And technically in that game on Saturday Hibbert's man was Josh Boone who started at center for UConn. There was also zero excuse for Jeff not getting a single field goal against Providence (there was a reason why HE wasn't on the floor during that game) but I don't recall you being fixated on that. Your bullseye is fixed on one target. I know of his nickname but I have never seen any indication that he wants to float outside, even with the opportunities this offense provides him to do so. So there is zero evidence that he's a wannabe perimeter oriented big man. He's smart and stays in the paint. Not enough big men show such common sense. Even in high school he would not fool around and play from the perimeter so your suggestion that he wants to isn't backed up by any proof. Even if was the case though who cares along as he doesn't do anything stupid like jacking up threes all game long? I want to have the same bank account as Bill Gates. But I'm smart enough to not go past my budget when I go out shopping. Oh, I haven't heard any mention of the the Sha-Dirk nickname since his soph season in high school. I may be wrong but I think he has put that moniker behind him.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 17, 2006 0:04:49 GMT -5
Giga,
I agree with your view of the Big Hypothetical, in that sense. I'm well aware of the risks of relying on others' evaluations. That said, my post was if he is everything he is cracked up to be...Obviously, if he is not as good as advertised he has no chance of supplanting Roy. But I think there is a chance of him being a complete stud from Day 1, and there is a chance that he's good enough to share minutes equally. I think it is better than 1%, though lower than 50%.
MCI,
I'm not forming a cult of personality against Roy. The first time I've seriously criticized him all year, as in focused on him, was after WVU when I was trying to defend Brandon, who had become "Everything Wrong with the Hoyas." It was a bad strategy, I admit, to defend someone by pointing out someone else's faults.
I'm almost always going to be arguing for the board's whipping boys (Ray Reed, Brandon Bowman) and against the board favorites because either a) I'm right and I'm arguing against irrational attachments or b) I play devil's advocate. Take your pick.
I still think I'd rather have Armstrong's future. Hope Roy makes me eat my words. I know he's young, but most people just don't develop athleticism.
Jeff gets no crap from me for two reasons: a) we won that game easily and b) lots of people were wondering what was wrong with Jeff. If someone posted what was wrong with Roy, I'd answer similarly. Nothing: he is what he is.
You wrote one hundred works on a joke comment re: Sha-Dirk. 'Nuff said.
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Eurostar
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Post by Eurostar on Jan 17, 2006 0:34:27 GMT -5
No way Macklin starts at C ever in his career. Roy will start for the next 2 years and Macklin will probably leave after his soph season. Macklin will come off the bench ala Marvin Williams. Only chance he starts is if Jeff plays 3, but in that situation I still see Ewing Jr. starting over him with 2yrs college experience and a year in our system.
Of course, starting and finishing are different things. Macklin will almost certainly get a ton of minutes from the get go, and may even log more minutes than guys like Ewing Jr and Hibbert over the course of the season. We will create so many problems for teams next year... I just hope our offensive scheme adjusts to this. SF, I would love to see Macklin come in and be a stud from day 1 (and he very weel could be), but even if he does I dont think he will start.
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Post by theEDGEfactor on Jan 17, 2006 6:56:37 GMT -5
ya macks no center. you said he was 190-210? say hes 210 start of BE play-he wouldnt be able to muscle down any1 on the low block.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jan 17, 2006 10:24:33 GMT -5
That's fine. I'd take that bet though. ya macks no center. you said he was 190-210? say hes 210 start of BE play-he wouldnt be able to muscle down any1 on the low block. That's not that far off from Joe Smith's size when he entered college.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 17, 2006 16:05:41 GMT -5
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 31, 2006 2:39:16 GMT -5
What's up with Jefferson? I'm guessing he's going to the draft this June? mod note: post moved to this thread
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Post by theEDGEfactor on Jan 31, 2006 6:44:46 GMT -5
no actualy he wants to go to school for a lil atleast... no decision yet tho
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Post by hoyaatwake on Feb 1, 2006 1:35:13 GMT -5
Excuse my ignorance, but what's 06 looking like? Any more commits looking good for this class? Scout has Phil Jones as having high interest and an offer (nothing on rivals though). DJ doesn't have GTown listed in his profile on scout, but has high interest (along with KU and OSU) on rivals.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Feb 1, 2006 1:44:31 GMT -5
Excuse my ignorance, but what's 06 looking like? Any more commits looking good for this class? Scout has Phil Jones as having high interest and an offer (nothing on rivals though). DJ doesn't have GTown listed in his profile on scout, but has high interest (along with KU and OSU) on rivals. I haven't heard anything about Phil Jones in a long time. I don't think the staff is really interested in him, unless something unexpected happens (someone heads for the draft this year or someone doesn't qualify). A lot of the scout stuff is really outdated. I think if we don't land Davon, we'll stick with 3 in '06 and focus on '07 and '08.
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Post by theEDGEfactor on Feb 1, 2006 6:51:23 GMT -5
its pretty much summers, rivers, macklin, pe2, and about a 25% possibility of getting davon jefferson
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