jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Feb 28, 2024 9:56:24 GMT -5
I tried to ignore a stat on the last telecast about how historically bad the Hoyas were over the last several years.
The fans on this board have been waiting patiently (and some not so patiently) for a return. There have been a lot of changes. New players. More new players, Yet again more new players. New coaching staffs. Some of those players were individually talented. To date, none of the changes have changed the outcomes. By definition, none were difference makers.
So what will be the point in which we start to see more wins and losses. In your opinion, what is the missing ingredient?
If it Is it the accumulation of enough talent willing to be a coached, who do you build around? What is the most important piece to find?
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Post by BeantownHoya on Feb 28, 2024 10:28:52 GMT -5
My 2 cents...I always said this year would be a free pass...that being said I...I felt that way under the belief we would not be the same trainwreck we had been the 2 seasons prior...I am not going to be calling for Cooley's head already next year...but I do all of a sudden feel next year becomes pretty critical that you absolutely must start moving in the right direction...
Epps, Brumbaugh, Styles and Cook - assuming they will all be back next year and then with that assumption there are no more excuses about not having a core of some type in place. He specifically targeted these guys for future success.
Heath and Massoud - Heath was not his guy. Massoud is gone next year and just didn't work out. Feels like addition by subtraction
Fielder - another building block/core player. Now has a year in the system.
Bristol - I assume has one more year and I assume he is back and is a great glue guy off the bench for any team looking to have depth and be successful.
Sorber/Mulready/McKenna/Williams - I personally have super high hopes for this class. Between talent and success in HS very real possibility they are contributing meaningful minutes already in year 1.
Transfer Market - Cooley needs to do well here. I am fine with what he brought in here this past season with the exception of Massoud. He has to be successful and should be in year 2 on the transfer market.
Depth - no excuses next year. Core guys, impact freshman, etc - we should have 9-10 guys that can contribute. No more worries about foul trouble, no more excuses about not having the ability to match-up, no reason you can't pull a guy that is not playing well during a game because there is no bench. Depth should be an immediate upgrade.
Big East - will not be as strong as it is this year. I am almost positive of that.
Cooley needs to impress in year 2. I'm not looking for championships ...really it's crazy at this point what I will take is playing meaningful games in February/March and talk around being a bubble team and as a fan at this point I will take that. Yes low bar but it would increase my enjoyment around the program immensely.
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TC
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Post by TC on Feb 28, 2024 10:36:50 GMT -5
Bristol - I assume has one more year and I assume he is back and is a great glue guy off the bench for any team looking to have depth and be successful. I don't think this is true, at least from the vibes from that podcast this week. I'm also not sure about his eligibility situation, whether he needs another waiver after this year.
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Post by BeantownHoya on Feb 28, 2024 10:38:44 GMT -5
Bristol - I assume has one more year and I assume he is back and is a great glue guy off the bench for any team looking to have depth and be successful. I don't think this is true, at least from the vibes from that podcast this week. I'm also not sure about his eligibility situation, whether he needs another waiver after this year. Thanks. I haven't listened yet. I wasn't aware...
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Feb 28, 2024 10:50:01 GMT -5
We have no players on this team who would start at any other BE team (except maybe DePaul). With that in mind it seems that what it takes is recruiting or finding transfers that at least athletically can match up with our BE opponents. As excited as many people on this Board are about our recruits I'm not going down that rabbit hole. I think what it will take to get us to 6-7 BE wins next year will be a legit big man and a super stud pg transfer coupled with major improvement from Brumbaugh, Fielder, and Styles. It also will take a huge commitment from this coaching staff to teach our guys how to play defense. I'll give Cooley a pass this year since it is obvious we don't have the players needed to compete in the BE. But if a year from now we are having this same conversation then we are in a heap of trouble.
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Post by RockawayHoya on Feb 28, 2024 11:06:37 GMT -5
It's an important question.
From just a pure basketball standpoint... yes, there are teams that are extremely balanced 1 through 5 and just play tremendous team basketball. They're well coached, make few mistakes, and take no plays off. You can certainly succeed that way. 2023 FAU is a good recent example; no stars or go to guys, but no weaknesses. Davis and Goldin on this year's FAU team have taken on much larger roles, but I digress. The main point is that it's very, very difficult to build an elite team this way. If you want to win 18-20 games as a major, make the occasional tourney, etc. then you can certainly try to construct a roster and coach to it using this method.
However, if you want to be elite (and this is where I believe we want to be), you need 2 critical things on offense. First, you need at least 1 go-to guy who is legitimately capable of taking over a game and winning it at any point. This is the player who requires a double team to slow him down and even attempt to stop him. He can create his own shot with relative consistency and is at least moderately efficient. Recent guys who we thought could play this role but could not include Mcclung, Aminu, and now Epps. They are just not at that level, and we haven't had that kind of player in quite some time (maybe DSR comes closest). IMO, you need at least 1. If you lucky enough to have 2, you can really force teams to pick their poison and there's probably only a handful of teams each year that successfully can. But let's start with finding 1.
The second thing you need are complementary players who can consistently make teams pay when your go-to guy is getting doubled. Modern basketball requires the go-to guy to be able to do something that the defense cannot stop without committing an extra defender (double team, hedge, help, trap, whatever). Once that double comes, it all comes down to... can your go-to guy be both creative and unselfish enough to find open teammates in spots they can excel in, and can those other guys consistently knock down shots from those spots. We've consistently fallen short in this area as well. We've either had someone like Q who could command some additional defensive attention but was unwilling/unable to pass to teammates, or guys who we recruited as knockdown shooters that end up not being able to make teams pay for leaving open on a consistent basis. Ish is a good example for this season. Kaiden came closest but was so poor on the defensive end that it negated any offense he could provide. We really need to start adding guys to the roster that other teams are fearful of leaving open and not guys who are being dared to shoot. Any player on the floor that you don't need to account for defensively is a huge minus in terms of spacing. You could maybe get away with it 10 years ago. You can't today.
Defensively, I think the fixes are a combination of coaching, game-planning and execution of that gameplan, and effort/desire. I just don't think you can coach desire into kids, especially in the modern era when they are already getting fat checks that could reasonably suppress that hunger. By the time they are ready to enter college or come via the portal, you probably already have a fair idea of how hard they are going to play. We have to stop bringing in kids who consistently exhibit bad body language, take plays off, don't run back in transition, etc. They are poison for a roster regardless of their talent. All that being said, the other half of it is coaching. Does the staff have a workable solution that, if executed properly, would stop or slow down the other team, force the other team to be uncomfortable and ideally go away from their preferred option(s)? I am sure the last staff did not and the current one hasn't shown it yet. Focusing on taking away 3-point shots is great, but at the expense of what? It is not clear to me from game-to-game this season what we are trying to take away. Is it forcing a specific player to a spot they don't like to be in? Is it a conscious effort to allow an opposing 4th/5th option to try and beat us? Can we mask any of our deficiencies? From our results and what I see, it doesn't look like we currently focus on any of those things.
Coaching is also about improving skills and emphasizing the fundamentals. We haven't had a team that I thought consistently boxed out and played more physical than their opponents in over a decade. We haven't had players that we've seen make a considerable jump in ability from season-to-season or even within a single season in a long time. Guys don't get physically stronger, incrementally quicker, etc. and then we wonder why we are outclassed athletically year after year. Player development is stagnant and when that happens, the ceiling becomes incredibly lower. I know this is much more challenging with consistent roster turnover and the potential difficulties in trying to retain kids who DO develop, but development still needs to happen. I'm hoping this staff can show more with a new group of players next year because outside of maybe 1-2 kids on this current squad, I'm not seeing a whole lot of room for growth.
In sum, all of that is a lot. But it has to be when you are consistently winning 10 or less games a year. There are certain things I am hopeful Cooley and company can correct (physicality, effort, better game-planning and execution). There are other things I am less confident in (player skill development, recruitment of elite talent). Unfortunately, it will take all of those things to get us back to where we want to be.
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Post by reformation on Feb 28, 2024 11:41:30 GMT -5
We don't currently have a viable core talent wise for a good team let alone an elite team. The guys we have are reserves or sixth men on good teams. Agree above if we want to be elite again, we need at least one or two elite talents. It looks like we have good freshman talent coming in: in order for it to be transformational we need solid transfer portal guys as well. TBH, none of those transfer portal guys mentioned look like transformational talents either. Hopefully the freshman/portal talent upgrade next year will allow us to get into the tournament and we will leverage the upward trajectory to get a couple of elites the following year. Also, we need much better overall shooting talent. Maybe Sorber turns out to be an NBA talent level guy and that would be a start--hard to tell, could see it either way.
Trying to start totally from scratch is hard. I'm sure Cooley regrets several of his personnel moves. I'm still positive on Cooley but I think showing a lot of progress next year will be critical.
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Post by BeantownHoya on Feb 28, 2024 13:33:22 GMT -5
We don't currently have a viable core talent wise for a good team let alone an elite team. The guys we have are reserves or sixth men on good teams. Agree above if we want to be elite again, we need at least one or two elite talents. It looks like we have good freshman talent coming in: in order for it to be transformational we need solid transfer portal guys as well. TBH, none of those transfer portal guys mentioned look like transformational talents either. Hopefully the freshman/portal talent upgrade next year will allow us to get into the tournament and we will leverage the upward trajectory to get a couple of elites the following year. Also, we need much better overall shooting talent. Maybe Sorber turns out to be an NBA talent level guy and that would be a start--hard to tell, could see it either way. Trying to start totally from scratch is hard. I'm sure Cooley regrets several of his personnel moves. I'm still positive on Cooley but I think showing a lot of progress next year will be critical. Certainly see what your saying about talent but don't totally agree... I guess I am not necessarily saying something completely different as I don't think any of the current roster could be a cornerstone to an elite team... But I do think surrounded by better talent Epps and Styles could be an excellent #3 or #4 options in a starting lineup or you surround Brumbaugh with 3-4 very good starters I do think he is a cabapable starting PG...
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Feb 28, 2024 14:37:40 GMT -5
Assuming it's too soon to talk about making changes at the top of the basketball program, I'll limit it to personnel:
1) Edited. NO calls to rescind scholarships.-Admin
2) Retain Brumbaugh, Cook, Styles and Fielder as your core. These are relatively low paid guys who appear to have the right mentality to grow within the program.
3) Prepare for Sorber to play 20+ minutes/game immediately and get him on campus as quickly as possible this summer to continue to improve his strength/conditioning. Use him as your primary building block for 2025-beyond. Do everything you can to build him into an all-Big East caliber performer by his sophomore season.
4) If you truly have $4M in NIL to spend on next season, and you assume the returning core and incoming freshman account for ~$1.5M, use the rest of the $2.5M on 2 extremely high quality veteran players rather than 3 or more lesser players. To put it in last offseason's terms, go get Dickinson AND Spencer instead of spending $300K here and there on guys like Massoud. The biggest need I'd try to fill is a high quality outside shooter with quickness - my Kam Jones example that I mentioned recently. Somebody that can light it up from outside while guarding shorter/quicker guys, assuming Brumbaugh is the starting PG. After securing the shooter from the portal, I'd go best player available, with an ideal scenario being a highly athletic, long 6'10"+ PF/C type. However, if there was an awesome SF type who could give you 2+ years and be an upgrade to Styles, or a no-brainer stud PG who could be a 2+ year upgrade from Brumbaugh, I'd think about guys like that as well.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Feb 28, 2024 19:47:21 GMT -5
I tried to ignore a stat on the last telecast about how historically bad the Hoyas were over the last several years. The fans on this board have been waiting patiently (and some not so patiently) for a return. There have been a lot of changes. New players. More new players, Yet again more new players. New coaching staffs. Some of those players were individually talented. To date, none of the changes have changed the outcomes. By definition, none were difference makers. So what will be the point in which we start to see more wins and losses. In your opinion, what is the missing ingredient? If it Is it the accumulation of enough talent willing to be a coached, who do you build around? What is the most important piece to find? Personally, I don't want to see more losses, I've seen plenty of losses. No need to fix anything, we all know what you meant.
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Post by jctnhoya4ever on Feb 28, 2024 22:06:50 GMT -5
Hoyas need to do better Cooley.
I know we rebuilding but this is ridiculous man, you got to get some impact transfer players next season. Don’t just take the money and give up you are better than that. Come on man this is got to improve man. I give you another year to show me something. U better or I am going to really think you left providence for the money. I hope not. But you have to bring in some immediate help man. We need to be way better then this.
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Post by durkin77 on Feb 29, 2024 10:33:33 GMT -5
What we really need is a defensive player who will lead a new approach and attitude. At Providence Cooley had Maniya and Carter. We've had Gene Smith and Trawick and many others. Without a tremendous change in our defense we will only see marginal improvement. Cooley knows the type of player he is looking for. Let's use some NIL money on a true defense stopper!
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Post by BeantownHoya on Feb 29, 2024 10:37:10 GMT -5
What we really need is a defensive player who will lead a new approach and attitude. At Providence Cooley had Maniya and Carter. We've had Gene Smith and Trawick and many others. Without a tremendous change in our defense we will only see marginal improvement. Cooley knows the type of player he is looking for. Let's use some NIL money on a true defense stopper! I would say the incoming freshman class (maybe Williams being the exception to some degree) are strongly defensively...so hopefully we start getting there...
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TC
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Post by TC on Feb 29, 2024 10:45:45 GMT -5
What we really need is a defensive player who will lead a new approach and attitude. At Providence Cooley had Maniya and Carter. We've had Gene Smith and Trawick and many others. Without a tremendous change in our defense we will only see marginal improvement. Cooley knows the type of player he is looking for. Let's use some NIL money on a true defense stopper! I would say the incoming freshman class (maybe Williams being the exception to some degree) are strongly defensively...so hopefully we start getting there... Williams is the best defensive player on one of the best local defensive teams. He was a target for Virginia AND Villanova before we landed him. Let's not get suckered into the hoyaboya nonsense.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Feb 29, 2024 11:24:25 GMT -5
I know we all want to see our frosh recruits turn this program around. But when was the last time this happened? I don't mean when did these recruits eventually help the team or take a good team and make it better I mean when did they take a trash fire of a team and immediately turn it into a competitive (8-10 BE wins) BE program? Ewing took a very good team and made it national championship caliber. All our recruits since then (Mourning,Iverson,Monroe,Freeman etc) never had to do what we're expecting this class of recruits to do. Granted NIL and the transfer portal changes everything but short of a major infusion of great transfer talent I'd be pleasantly surprised if our recruits help us win 3-4 more BE games next year. Remember our BE coach rivals are not standing still. Yes they lose some studs but you can bet guys like Pitino, McDermott, Hurley, Miller and Mota will reload this spring.
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rhw485
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Post by rhw485 on Feb 29, 2024 11:53:37 GMT -5
It's an important question. Agree with this post (didnt quote tweet whole thing to cause too much noise). Only thing I'll add as it relates to defense is just general positional size. I don't think it's a coincidence that our only competent defensive stretch was when we played with real size and length on the wings (Bile / Pickett together). This year we're playing a 6'9 center and 6'6 wing consistently playing up at the 4. Last year even w Q and Akok you had 6'5 Brandon Murray playing the 3. Given the ability of teams to stretch the floor and shoot 3s, you have more area to cover and need length to combat it. We really have been forced into rosters that lack two-way players. We're trading offense for defense or vice versa, and it's become too delicate a balance to handle and put a functional lineup out there that can excel on both sides. I also dont think any of this can excuse the defensive performance this year. I've always held the view that there's only so much coaching Xs and Os you can do to extract offense; at some point players have to make shots. On the other hand, we've seen countless examples of coaches being able to improve defenses before the offensive talent catches up. That's the really difficult part of this season to reconcile, but we have no choice but to see if we can get that end sorted out next year.
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Post by bornhoya on Feb 29, 2024 12:00:11 GMT -5
I know we all want to see our frosh recruits turn this program around. But when was the last time this happened? I don't mean when did these recruits eventually help the team or take a good team and make it better I mean when did they take a trash fire of a team and immediately turn it into a competitive (8-10 BE wins) BE program? Ewing took a very good team and made it national championship caliber. All our recruits since then (Mourning,Iverson,Monroe,Freeman etc) never had to do what we're expecting this class of recruits to do. Granted NIL and the transfer portal changes everything but short of a major infusion of great transfer talent I'd be pleasantly surprised if our recruits help us win 3-4 more BE games next year. Remember our BE coach rivals are not standing still. Yes they lose some studs but you can bet guys like Pitino, McDermott, Hurley, Miller and Mota will reload this spring. Nobody thinks they are going to take us to a championship but if they can provide depth and more competitive, that’s a start
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 29, 2024 12:53:32 GMT -5
I know we all want to see our frosh recruits turn this program around. But when was the last time this happened? I don't mean when did these recruits eventually help the team or take a good team and make it better I mean when did they take a trash fire of a team and immediately turn it into a competitive (8-10 BE wins) BE program? Ewing took a very good team and made it national championship caliber. All our recruits since then (Mourning,Iverson,Monroe,Freeman etc) never had to do what we're expecting this class of recruits to do. Granted NIL and the transfer portal changes everything but short of a major infusion of great transfer talent I'd be pleasantly surprised if our recruits help us win 3-4 more BE games next year. Remember our BE coach rivals are not standing still. Yes they lose some studs but you can bet guys like Pitino, McDermott, Hurley, Miller and Mota will reload this spring. Nobody thinks they are going to take us to a championship but if they can provide depth and more competitive, that’s a start What you're stating is exactly what Doc Quigley is asking in his post, when was the last time a frosh class turned a dumpster fire into an 8 to 10 win BE team?
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TC
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Post by TC on Feb 29, 2024 13:50:33 GMT -5
Nobody thinks they are going to take us to a championship but if they can provide depth and more competitive, that’s a start What you're stating is exactly what Doc Quigley is asking in his post, when was the last time a frosh class turned a dumpster fire into an 8 to 10 win BE team? 2004 and 2018, but the portal is going to help us this time too. Basically year one and year two of our past two attempts at rebuilding.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 29, 2024 14:23:00 GMT -5
What you're stating is exactly what Doc Quigley is asking in his post, when was the last time a frosh class turned a dumpster fire into an 8 to 10 win BE team? 2004 and 2018, but the portal is going to help us this time too. Basically year one and year two of our past two attempts at rebuilding. 2004 was as much or more about the coaching change than the players but 2018 is a legit reference.
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