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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 20, 2023 11:48:32 GMT -5
Did you not watch the game. I don't think they made a jump shot the entire 2nd half. Most of their O was bullying us to the rim and then getting the reb once they missed the shot. They are a much better defensive team and much more physical team but that won't be the case next year. Butler will lose in the 1st rd of the tourney.... What you are calling "bullying at the rim" is another way of saying they're taking high percentage shots near the rim. They're not a team based on shooting threes, but they are one of the best two point shooting teams in the country. And our two point defense stinks. So they had their way with us. While I am not happy with any loss, we essentially played even basketball with Butler for 36 minutes. But the last 4 minutes of the first half was a disaster on defense, and that's really what put us behind and we never recovered from that. We also shot horribly, so it's hard to win. I do think the offense was particularly poor last night, in that there wasn't much ball movement and guys were stagnant. Cooley yelled at Styles in one of the huddles to stop doing that, so clearly it's not the plan, but the guys were doing it anyway. We need to play better. And as others have said, like all year, our defensive rebounding was atrocious. I just don't see a solution to this because Supreme Cook as the center needs to get a lot of defensive rebounds and he simply isn't. His offensive rebounding is fantastic. But on the defensive end he's just not getting it done. Last night, his O rebounding rate was 23.5, and defensive rebounding rate was 4.5. For a center, even an undersized one, that's horrible.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 20, 2023 11:49:32 GMT -5
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 20, 2023 11:55:32 GMT -5
Did you not watch the game. I don't think they made a jump shot the entire 2nd half. Most of their O was bullying us to the rim and then getting the reb once they missed the shot. They are a much better defensive team and much more physical team but that won't be the case next year. Butler will lose in the 1st rd of the tourney.... What you are calling "bullying at the rim" is another way of saying they're taking high percentage shots near the rim. They're not a team based on shooting threes, but they are one of the best two point shooting teams in the country. And our two point defense stinks. So they had their way with us. While I am not happy with any loss, we essentially played even basketball with Butler for 36 minutes. But the last 4 minutes of the first half was a disaster on defense, and that's really what put us behind and we never recovered from that. We also shot horribly, so it's hard to win. I do think the offense was particularly poor last night, in that there wasn't much ball movement and guys were stagnant. Cooley yelled at Styles in one of the huddles to stop doing that, so clearly it's not the plan, but the guys were doing it anyway. We need to play better. And as others have said, like all year, our defensive rebounding was atrocious. I just don't see a solution to this because Supreme Cook as the center needs to get a lot of defensive rebounds and he simply isn't. His offensive rebounding is fantastic. But on the defensive end he's just not getting it done. Last night, his O rebounding rate was 23.5, and defensive rebounding rate was 4.5. For a center, even an undersized one, that's horrible. Before the season (and after Akok left) when I pointed out that we needed a center you said that we’ll just play Fielder as the small ball center and be fine.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 20, 2023 12:00:18 GMT -5
This acknowledgment by Cooley kinda makes me question for the 1st time the staff bringing in so many walk-ons.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 20, 2023 12:01:31 GMT -5
Did you not watch the game. I don't think they made a jump shot the entire 2nd half. Most of their O was bullying us to the rim and then getting the reb once they missed the shot. They are a much better defensive team and much more physical team but that won't be the case next year. Butler will lose in the 1st rd of the tourney.... So "skilled" in your view only pertains to shooting Zeke?
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Dec 20, 2023 12:02:05 GMT -5
Screen (whom I never heard of) made us adjust our line-up. Their bigs who weren't much bigger but were more physical definitely took their toll on us. The issue isn't the loss, but what we learn from it. Epps/Heath are playing their way back to 100%. I don't expect much against Marquette. Gotta get healthy and then see what we can do against Creighton & Depaul.
The sky isn't falling. We are fine. Everything is just fine.
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Post by bearsandbulls on Dec 20, 2023 12:16:42 GMT -5
New coach, new team, coming together but more slowly than most of us want....Above all as you view, do bear in mind we are 7-5 right now with about 18 or so games left......I don't think that we will go 0-18 and that is where we were last year at the end of the season (7 wins)
This team is in no way a perfect fit right now and EC is working with what he has...Too many guard like players...Too few good ball handlers....Too few good defensive players....Too few strong arm rebounders.
So where do we go wrong? Turnovers number ONE by far....Missed free throws number TWO by far....No help inside defense number THREE....If only those three things were cleaned up a bit we would be looking much better with the same players right now.
Yes, I cannot disagree with not enough of quick passing, not enough defensive rebounding, etc...But we have to play this year with the hand we were dealt...Things look better on the horizon because we have seen EC build "culture" elsewhere. Patience fans.
I agree losing is NO fun..But Butler played with Posh en feugo, with outside players driving the paint with good screens. They were better. Our day will come.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 20, 2023 12:32:59 GMT -5
Longer thoughts. First, the D Rebounding: - Defensive rebounding is a team effort while offensive rebounding is much more individual. It's absolutely partly the problem that we play weak rebounders at the four and our scheme which pushes out AND when we play zone are both terrible for getting numbers and boxing out.
- That said, the effort level isn't great, either. The team is not bad at crashing the O boards -- which is great -- but there's simply not the work there on the D boards. Even a guy like Styles, who I love, is simply not attacking the ball.
- Supreme Cook has tiny hands. That's pretty much it. The dude NEVER gets contested rebounds, really. And he can't tip the ball to himself. He got a bunch of O boards, but most dropped to him when the defense helped away from him. He's simply not a good rebounder, and so the only time we're going to see a strong d rebounding performance out of him is when he's not contested often.
- Which gets back to defensive placement and effort by others -- we simply rarely have more than one or two guys really blocking out or going for the ball. Some of that is scheme but quite a bit of that is the players.
Onto the rest of the game... - Normally, I'd be a bit more optimistic in a game like this where we shot like crap and only really lost because of one bad sequence. But I think this was more discouraging than that.
- And that's because our poor shooting was absolutely greatly influenced by not getting good shots. Someone else noted it, but for a good three point shooting team we don't run enough stuff to get open threes. Way too much individual dribbling and jacking this game. We looked like we took a real step back, and I don't think it was all Butler's defense. Or much Butler's defense. Instead, I think that certain players just stopped doing what they should.
- In a related note, I'd consider benching Massoud and Heath. Massoud seems like he's decided that this year is his year to expand his game or something, but a dude who should be a spot up shooter and play conservatively on D, using his height, help out on the boards, for some reason likes to dribble, take dumb shots, and ignore defense and rebounding.
- And Heath was beyond atrocious. Offensively, defensively. When we cut it to 8 with 6+ minutes left, he proceeded to over help, leaving open a corner three and then on the next possession, he failed to get into anything resembling a defensive stance and got beat like a drum for a layup. Bam, down 13 and game over. If he's not hurt, then you've got to question his mentality at that moment. And if he is hurt, you've got to realize that he isn't helping you like this.
- One positive is Styles might be beginning to realize that he has to be one of the top guys on this team. He got more assertive in the second half and led our tiny bit of a comeback. He needs to do more, especially if Epps is out or struggling.
- The combination of live ball turnovers and poor transition defense seem to combine for more damage than the stats would imply. There's probably 10 points a game for the opponent where we turn it over and give up an absurdly easy bucket. Our half court D isn't great, but if we could even make our turnovers go out of bounds, it'd change things like that terrible end of half run greatly.
The biggest thing I'd like to see next game is to get more movement and attempts to create open threes from the team. Marquette is so much better that it isn't likely to look like improvement, but we need to stop with this Ish dribbling for ten seconds then jacking up a fadeaway three.
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TC
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Post by TC on Dec 20, 2023 12:33:30 GMT -5
This acknowledgment by Cooley kinda makes me question for the 1st time the staff bringing in so many walk-ons. Matta took over a program that was 6-14 and put up a 6-14 in his first year and lost to Patrick Ewing at home - zero improvement over LaVell Jordan. Georgetown couldn't even beat DePaul at DePaul and still managed to get a W at Hinkle. 7 kids transferred out after his Y1. I'm not sure how you look at a guy with two Final Fours who needed a rebuild year to get into compete mode and then pull out a Tobias Fuenke thought process about the need for a rebuilding year ("Competing year one never works. I mean, these people somehow delude themselves into thinking it might, but... but it might work for us.")
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guru
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Post by guru on Dec 20, 2023 12:53:40 GMT -5
Screen (whom I never heard of) made us adjust our line-up. Their bigs who weren't much bigger but were more physical definitely took their toll on us. The issue isn't the loss, but what we learn from it. Epps/Heath are playing their way back to 100%. I don't expect much against Marquette. Gotta get healthy and then see what we can do against Creighton & Depaul. The sky isn't falling. We are fine. Everything is just fine. The sky is on the ground all around us. We’re trying to put it back up there!
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Dec 20, 2023 13:12:35 GMT -5
Did you not watch the game. I don't think they made a jump shot the entire 2nd half. Most of their O was bullying us to the rim and then getting the reb once they missed the shot. They are a much better defensive team and much more physical team but that won't be the case next year. Butler will lose in the 1st rd of the tourney.... So "skilled" in your view only pertains to shooting Zeke? I think we are better at shooting, dribbling and passing. We are just so bad on the defensive side that it didn't show. Trust when Butler plays a better defensive, just average defensively, Telford, Thomas, and rest will be exposed....everyone but Posh.
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thedragon
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Post by thedragon on Dec 20, 2023 13:23:23 GMT -5
SFHoya99Agree with much of your long form thoughts. And while I do think the team would benefit in a vacuum from less Massoud and Heath - we simply don't have the bodies to make that a reality. I think this is also why I'm so bullish for next season. Upgrade Heath and Massouds scholarships with top of the funnel level NIL/Transfer portal guys. Probably a third portal guy for a spot yet to be determined. Add in the development and added S&C of guys like Fielder, Rowan, Epps and Styles (without losing any of that core) as well as the 2024 recruiting class and you can see the makings of a legitimate tournament level team or bubblish at worst. Mayne better said after yesterday - while built differently - I expect a Butler esque 2nd year jump
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 20, 2023 14:09:40 GMT -5
SFHoya99Agree with much of your long form thoughts. And while I do think the team would benefit in a vacuum from less Massoud and Heath - we simply don't have the bodies to make that a reality. I think this is also why I'm so bullish for next season. Upgrade Heath and Massouds scholarships with top of the funnel level NIL/Transfer portal guys. Probably a third portal guy for a spot yet to be determined. Add in the development and added S&C of guys like Fielder, Rowan, Epps and Styles (without losing any of that core) as well as the 2024 recruiting class and you can see the makings of a legitimate tournament level team or bubblish at worst. Mayne better said after yesterday - while built differently - I expect a Butler esque 2nd year jump I'm hopeful for the future. I think it's a good thing that the players I am most frustrated with (with the exception of Cook) will be moving on. That's a cold thing to say, but in particular, I question what a couple of them do culture wise. I see inconsistent buy in. I would say the lack of consistent defensive effort and the inconsistency in running our offense are concerns for me with Cooley. I somewhat expected him to be a bit more of a hammer with this crew in terms of execution. I get there's no depth, but when I watch Massoud, for example, do some of these things, I really wonder where the hook is. People complain about Epps, but at least his heat checks are usually open. And when they biggest problems seem to be fifth year seniors, it's doubly frustrating. I am excited about the future set of players. Freshmen will be freshmen but the increase in size, strength and athleticism will be noticeable. The shooting will drop, though. I agree, though, if we can add the four for next year AND a couple of real transfers AND retain important players, we will have a full team next year. That's two "ands" we haven't seen in a while, though.
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bigskyhoya
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Post by bigskyhoya on Dec 20, 2023 14:18:57 GMT -5
SFHoya99Agree with much of your long form thoughts. And while I do think the team would benefit in a vacuum from less Massoud and Heath - we simply don't have the bodies to make that a reality. I think this is also why I'm so bullish for next season. Upgrade Heath and Massouds scholarships with top of the funnel level NIL/Transfer portal guys. Probably a third portal guy for a spot yet to be determined. Add in the development and added S&C of guys like Fielder, Rowan, Epps and Styles (without losing any of that core) as well as the 2024 recruiting class and you can see the makings of a legitimate tournament level team or bubblish at worst. Mayne better said after yesterday - while built differently - I expect a Butler esque 2nd year jump In general I agree, but I would like to see more Bristol and less Heath now.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 20, 2023 14:19:34 GMT -5
So "skilled" in your view only pertains to shooting Zeke? I think we are better at shooting, dribbling and passing. We are just so bad on the defensive side that it didn't show. Trust when Butler plays a better defensive, just average defensively, Telford, Thomas, and rest will be exposed....everyone but Posh. Just having Alexander alone gives the ball handling & passing category to Butler in my view How do you explain Butler scoring 86 on FAU who's 41st for AdjD on KenPom. They also scored 83 in regulation(20 in OT) in a win over TTU the 44th team in the category.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Dec 20, 2023 14:34:52 GMT -5
Thought Cook and Stiles played really well, last night! They did a great job taking away the 3 point shot.
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thedragon
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Post by thedragon on Dec 20, 2023 14:57:37 GMT -5
SFHoya99Agree with much of your long form thoughts. And while I do think the team would benefit in a vacuum from less Massoud and Heath - we simply don't have the bodies to make that a reality. I think this is also why I'm so bullish for next season. Upgrade Heath and Massouds scholarships with top of the funnel level NIL/Transfer portal guys. Probably a third portal guy for a spot yet to be determined. Add in the development and added S&C of guys like Fielder, Rowan, Epps and Styles (without losing any of that core) as well as the 2024 recruiting class and you can see the makings of a legitimate tournament level team or bubblish at worst. Mayne better said after yesterday - while built differently - I expect a Butler esque 2nd year jump I'm hopeful for the future. I think it's a good thing that the players I am most frustrated with (with the exception of Cook) will be moving on. That's a cold thing to say, but in particular, I question what a couple of them do culture wise. I see inconsistent buy in. I would say the lack of consistent defensive effort and the inconsistency in running our offense are concerns for me with Cooley. I somewhat expected him to be a bit more of a hammer with this crew in terms of execution. I get there's no depth, but when I watch Massoud, for example, do some of these things, I really wonder where the hook is. People complain about Epps, but at least his heat checks are usually open. And when they biggest problems seem to be fifth year seniors, it's doubly frustrating. I am excited about the future set of players. Freshmen will be freshmen but the increase in size, strength and athleticism will be noticeable. The shooting will drop, though. I agree, though, if we can add the four for next year AND a couple of real transfers AND retain important players, we will have a full team next year. That's two "ands" we haven't seen in a while, though. The initiation of offense is a double edged sword. We're actually better at initiating offensive sets when Epps is at the 1. The defense overhelps on PnR and off ball screens because the scouting report keys on Epps. But I think we're a better overall team with Epps off the ball and Rowan getting run for the future. Defense I think gets a little bit of a bad rap (granted it's not good on multiple facets) because we so often can't finish off a possession 1 and done by getting the board. I'd be curious what are Defensive efficiency #s would look if we improved our D-Rebounding by even 10%.
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Post by JohnnyJones on Dec 20, 2023 15:54:33 GMT -5
Did you not watch the game. I don't think they made a jump shot the entire 2nd half. Most of their O was bullying us to the rim and then getting the reb once they missed the shot. They are a much better defensive team and much more physical team but that won't be the case next year. Butler will lose in the 1st rd of the tourney.... I did actually. And Butler shot 45.8% for the game (to our 38.7%). They also had more assists, steals, offensive rebounds and defensive rebounds, and fewer turnovers and a lot fewer fouls. I am a positive fan, love the team and optimistic for the future, so Im not going to fight you on this. I agree with the areas you highlighted as Butler's obvious strengths, but it just seemed a bit preposterous to me to suggest that "[w]e are so much more skilled than Butler ...".
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Dec 20, 2023 17:22:50 GMT -5
As one of the aging Alums on this site, I have to admit that games like last night are deflating. It gets increasingly more difficult to wait until next year. However, it should not be necessary to wait until next year to see some improvement in this team. More movement on both ends of the court is essential.
Defense can be taught and while there may be limits as to what a player can do, the Hoyas would improve significantly just by having players focus on assignments, like help defense in either the zone or man. Too many easy baskets inside and it cannot be all Cook's fault.
On offense we know that they are capable of ball movement, but too often it is abandoned or fails because of careless passes or players trying to dribble through a crowded lane. More movement of the ball and the players please. It is frustrating to watch a player trying to dish the ball while his teammates are standing frozen next to an opponent waiting for the pass. We do not need a guard dribbling around the perimeter and then struggling to heave up a shot before the clock runs. Move. Make the opponent defend all five players and not just the ballhandler. It's easy for opponents to extend their defense when they are not worried about any inside threat. However, if Cook cannot provide that then Massoud and Fielder must. They are as valuable to this team if they can hit the shots in the lane or the top of the key as when shooting from beyond the arc. Maybe more so considering that the Hoyas are struggling to get open shots from deep. Styles gets it and should be the model for Massoud and Fielder.
Not expecting a sudden turnaround in fortunes but games like last night make you question how much progress is actually being made.
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smokeyjack
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Post by smokeyjack on Dec 20, 2023 20:59:33 GMT -5
As one of the aging Alums on this site, I have to admit that games like last night are deflating. It gets increasingly more difficult to wait until next year. However, it should not be necessary to wait until next year to see some improvement in this team. More movement on both ends of the court is essential. Defense can be taught and while there may be limits as to what a player can do, the Hoyas would improve significantly just by having players focus on assignments, like help defense in either the zone or man. Too many easy baskets inside and it cannot be all Cook's fault. On offense we know that they are capable of ball movement, but too often it is abandoned or fails because of careless passes or players trying to dribble through a crowded lane. More movement of the ball and the players please. It is frustrating to watch a player trying to dish the ball while his teammates are standing frozen next to an opponent waiting for the pass. We do not need a guard dribbling around the perimeter and then struggling to heave up a shot before the clock runs. Move. Make the opponent defend all five players and not just the ballhandler. It's easy for opponents to extend their defense when they are not worried about any inside threat. However, if Cook cannot provide that then Massoud and Fielder must. They are as valuable to this team if they can hit the shots in the lane or the top of the key as when shooting from beyond the arc. Maybe more so considering that the Hoyas are struggling to get open shots from deep. Styles gets it and should be the model for Massoud and Fielder. Not expecting a sudden turnaround in fortunes but games like last night make you question how much progress is actually being made. Really? I don't really get this at all. We have 7.5 players, and all other than DS and Cook are basically frosh or guys nobody else wanted. So, you have two players that are physically mature and BE-level talents. Two. We have one true big in Cook, so we are getting slaughtered on the glass in every game. That's not going to change. Butler was playing at home with a deeper, more mature roster led by a guy like Posh. That was actually not a bad game at all. Prepare to endure FAR worse this season. We're playing essentially 3-on-5.
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