calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,362
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Post by calhoya on Dec 19, 2023 21:19:21 GMT -5
Cannot stand watching this team dribble aimlessly around the perimeter while the shot clock winds down. Ball movement is possible against even an aggressive defense but it involves passing not dribbling and players are going to have to move to get to the ball rather than standing and watching. Have to find a way to get some open shots for Heath and Massoud. Hoping that Massoud is still adjusting because if this is all we are going to get from him i would rather give more time to Fielder.
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astrohoya
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 303
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Post by astrohoya on Dec 19, 2023 21:22:50 GMT -5
Butler missed 32 shots. 1 went out of bounds. (This tends to happen when you randomly throw it up from half court). Of the other 31, they got the offensive board 15 times. That is atrocious. Costly too. It basically means half of your defensive stops are not actually stops. Hard to win that way.
It’s doubly bad since as a team we do not force turnovers, hence more shots are put up to be rebounded.
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Post by dariantownesvanzandt on Dec 19, 2023 21:53:06 GMT -5
People need to stop thinking this. The two often have little to do with one another. Of last year's best 10 defensive rebounding teams (least off rebs allowed), 7 of them finished 275+ (i.e. awful) in offensive rebounding. This year - of the top 10 offensive rebounding teams, only 3 are in the Top 100 in defensive rebounding. Last year only 4 were. This is interesting, but it doesn't change the fact that we are a very poor defensive rebounding team, and I wish we were better. We need to be better. See Rockaway's comment above. You're right - we're not a great defensive rebounding team. But Rockaway's comment is silly, and not worth responding to. Supreme Cook... needs pride? and want? That's absurd. He's been a 1-man frontcourt (at 6'8") for the majority of the season. I don't see anybody whining about Fielder and Massoud combining for 42 minutes and 1 defensive rebound. The fact that we're playing Ish Massoud (13.7 DefReb%) and Dontrez Styles (12.7%) at the 4 is a far bigger issue on the boards than Supreme Cook's play. (Though Styles was busy tonight.) Tonight we got out-hustled at that end, but: - of the 15 Butler offensive rebounds, 4 were "team" rebounds -- i.e. out-of-bounds tipped balls that didn't go our way - 6 of their 11 actual rebounds were off missed threes. Again -- our "successful" 3pt defense (they shot 4-18) isn't doing us any favors on the defensive boards. - Cooley didn't go "big" once to combat it -- not sure why You want to stop the defensive rebounding woes? Go bigger. Obviously Cooley must be considering that trade-off, but hasn't pulled the trigger yet. A couple more stinkers from Ish (and improvement from Drew), and I don't think he'll be able to justify 30mpg for Ish at the 4.
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daveg023
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by daveg023 on Dec 19, 2023 21:55:02 GMT -5
Butler missed 32 shots. 1 went out of bounds. (This tends to happen when you randomly throw it up from half court). Of the other 31, they got the offensive board 15 times. That is atrocious. Costly too. It basically means half of your defensive stops are not actually stops. Hard to win that way. It’s doubly bad since as a team we do not force turnovers, hence more shots are put up to be rebounded. We essentially play a four guard lineup. We have 2 maybe 3 physically strong players. We are going to be out rebounded most nights. Part of the reason we are getting beat on the defensive glass is that too often we are looking to block a shot and if we are not successful, there are free men running to the rim. Just requires a little more disciplined approach. Won’t solve everything but it may help secure a few more empty trips. Cooley obviously thinks this trade off is necessary with this lineup instead of trying to go bigger. All that said, the fact we only got good efforts from 2 of our 7 core players, and still stayed within 10 on the road against a possible NCAA team, is encouraging in my book. This had the makings of a 20 point blowout in prior years. No moral victories, but there is reason to be cautiously optimistic if Epps gets his feet back under him and Brumbaugh and Fielder continue to improve each game.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Dec 19, 2023 22:16:31 GMT -5
Too much Butler! We need Epps healthy!
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traversb
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
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Post by traversb on Dec 19, 2023 23:42:31 GMT -5
I give Heath some credit and this is how he repays me? Thanks a lot Jay. All jokes aside the guards were all bad tonight. Luckily Butler missed 3s and it stayed respectable. We can keep harping on what goes wrong from game to game but end of the day it’s just a poorly constructed roster.
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kbones17
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by kbones17 on Dec 20, 2023 1:30:00 GMT -5
Butler is more experienced, more physical, better defenders and has a game changer in Posh Alexander. They also got the “home court” whistle in the first half. We have better shooters, but that’s about it. Oh well, the team stayed engaged and kept it somewhat close.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 20, 2023 8:09:04 GMT -5
Epps probably shouldn’t have been out there cause he was sick and while still dribbling too much wasn’t shooting (especially from 3) like he normally does.
Rowan was a problem though because in this game he decided to take 15 dribbles to start the offense. This meant we were working with a 10 second shot clock and nobody was getting any touches. As a result Heath, Bristol, Massoud were chucking up shots when they finally touched the ball.
There wasn’t enough passing or “MOVING”. 8 team assists is reflective of this.
Supreme actually had a decent offensive output which kept us somewhat in the game but this team is built on 3 pt shooting so passing the ball and getting open looks is vital.
As mentioned before the season size/rebounding will be a problem for this team if we don’t get a transfer big in this holiday window. Fielder is just too small right now to play the five.
It’s going to get really ugly when we face Klingon, Kalkbrenner, Dixon, Marquette without another serviceable big man.
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by calhoya on Dec 20, 2023 8:57:34 GMT -5
Epps probably shouldn’t have been out there cause he was sick and while still dribbling too much wasn’t shooting (especially from 3) like he normally does. Rowan was a problem though because in this game he decided to take 15 dribbles to start the offense. This meant we were working with a 10 second shot clock and nobody was getting any touches. As a result Heath, Bristol, Massoud were chucking up shots when they finally touched the ball. There wasn’t enough passing or “MOVING”. 8 team assists is reflective of this. Supreme actually had a decent offensive output which kept us somewhat in the game but this team is built on 3 pt shooting so passing the ball and getting open looks is vital. As mentioned before the season size/rebounding will be a problem for this team if we don’t get a transfer big in this holiday window. Fielder is just too small right now to play the five. It’s going to get really ugly when we face Klingon, Kalkbrenner, Dixon, Marquette without another serviceable big man. Agree with this. Add in the fact that apparently the team does not have players who can thrive in either a man or zone defense. Whatever is going on with Heath , it is apparent that he cannot stay with any quicker guard. Epps is not much better and Rowan is inconsistent. Worse than the guards however, the interior defense is non-existent. Any opposing guard that can drive into the lane is almost certain to get a quality shot or able to dish to an open big when a Hoya comes to stop the drive. There is no defensive help. Not certain what Cooley's track record is as a defensive coach but he is going to have to figure this out quickly or this team will not be competitive with anyone in the BE other than DePaul. Even in a rebuild, no one signed up for another 2-3 win season in BE play.
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hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by hoyaboya on Dec 20, 2023 9:45:01 GMT -5
"The story from this game happened after it was over, really. It happened when Georgetown’s Cooley sat down in the media room and explained what Thad Matta has done with Butler — and how difficult it is to do. “It’s COVID basketball,” he said, referring to the era we’re in, which includes a fifth year of eligibility for all players from that miserable 2020-21 season, combined with the transfer portal giving players the freedom to switch schools after every season. “You take a lot of players from different organizations. Some (players) are on two, three or four coaches — so that’s lot of different coaches, a lot of different philosophies. “It’s very, very difficult to do what he’s doing.” Cooley was talking about more than the physical specimens Matta has in his starting lineup or coming off the bench. He also was talking about the way this remade Butler team — just one player, Carmel’s John-Michael Mulloy, has been here longer than 15 months — gets along on the court. Cooley wasn’t referring to kumbaya moments like players rushing to help a teammate up, though that’s what happened when Butler guard DJ Davis fell in a heap in the second half and was immediately surrounded by concerned Butler teammates. Which is not, interestingly enough, what happened moments earlier when Georgetown guard Rowan Brumbaugh fell to the deck and sat there, waiting, for someone to help him up. He reached both hands up to nobody in particular and looked at his teammates with wide eyes, like: Well? Anyway, Cooley wasn’t talking about that. He was talking about the way Butler’s players already understand each other on the defensive end, calling that proof of the team’s chemistry. Which is proof of Thad Matta’s excellent job with this team. And then a few minutes later, Matta gave some insight into how he did it. “The biggest priority we looked at in recruiting was character,” Matta was saying, referring to transfer portal guys as much as high school recruits. “Try to look at these guys and the families they came from. There’s a ‘why’ to who they are.” www.indystar.com/story/sports/columnists/gregg-doyel/2023/12/19/butler-basketball-looks-legit-georgetown-is-first-big-east-victim-thad-matta-roster-transfers/71870626007/
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Post by hsaxon on Dec 20, 2023 9:49:44 GMT -5
This is interesting, but it doesn't change the fact that we are a very poor defensive rebounding team, and I wish we were better. We need to be better. See Rockaway's comment above. You're right - we're not a great defensive rebounding team. But Rockaway's comment is silly, and not worth responding to. Supreme Cook... needs pride? and want? That's absurd. He's been a 1-man frontcourt (at 6'8") for the majority of the season. I don't see anybody whining about Fielder and Massoud combining for 42 minutes and 1 defensive rebound. The fact that we're playing Ish Massoud (13.7 DefReb%) and Dontrez Styles (12.7%) at the 4 is a far bigger issue on the boards than Supreme Cook's play. (Though Styles was busy tonight.) Tonight we got out-hustled at that end, but: - of the 15 Butler offensive rebounds, 4 were "team" rebounds -- i.e. out-of-bounds tipped balls that didn't go our way - 6 of their 11 actual rebounds were off missed threes. Again -- our "successful" 3pt defense (they shot 4-18) isn't doing us any favors on the defensive boards. - Cooley didn't go "big" once to combat it -- not sure why You want to stop the defensive rebounding woes? Go bigger. Obviously Cooley must be considering that trade-off, but hasn't pulled the trigger yet. A couple more stinkers from Ish (and improvement from Drew), and I don't think he'll be able to justify 30mpg for Ish at the 4. Supreme Cook is doing the best that he can and I respect and admire him for that. He is going to have some long nights against much bigger men.
We need a tough 7-foot center and a tough 6'8" or 6'9" power forward.
Butler is a tougher team than we are.
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Post by hsaxon on Dec 20, 2023 9:52:43 GMT -5
Butler is more experienced, more physical, better defenders and has a game changer in Posh Alexander. They also got the “home court” whistle in the first half. We have better shooters, but that’s about it. Oh well, the team stayed engaged and kept it somewhat close. Posh would have been a good pick-up for us.
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Post by hsaxon on Dec 20, 2023 9:54:48 GMT -5
Many of the same frustrations that have plagued the team all year: giving up too many offensive rebounds, poor interior defense- and while there were still sloppy turnovers- from what I saw I'd call it an improvement. There are still many issues with overall defensive fundamentals. What good I saw I saw from the players I wanted to see it from. Brumbaugh, Fielder, and Styles all seem like a solid core (toss in a healthy Epps). If we can get a legitimate rim protector/ back to the basket threat next year I think we'll be in great shape. I'm not sure if Sorber fits this mold. Future looks good. I keep having to remind myself that the rebuild was never going to happen overnight. The players fought today. I missed run that put Butler up big before the half, but agree with the above statement that the game was largely even aside from that.
I'll add: While I think Cooley gives some players more minutes than they deserve, I appreciate his using almost all of his scholarship players (granted, injuries and a short roster "help"). While there are flashes of hero ball here and there, no player seems to have the limitless leash that we've seen in previous years. I think that will pay dividends when players have the opportunity to change schools.
We need a tough 7-foot center.
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TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by TC on Dec 20, 2023 10:06:39 GMT -5
We need a tough 7-foot center and a tough 6'8" or 6'9" power forward. So weird to read that because I agree we need a Big East quality C for next year which don't exactly grow on trees because they need to do multiple things like switch off of guys and credibly cover different positions, go inside/outside, and bang inside and defensively rebound, and yet I think people are really missing how absolutely perfectly Supreme Cook fits the second part of that sentence (the tough 6'8" or 6'9" power forward). Supreme is doing a lot of things you want really, really well and I don't think the defensive rebounding / blocking out is a one-player responsibility.
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hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by hoyaboya on Dec 20, 2023 10:27:22 GMT -5
Epps probably shouldn’t have been out there cause he was sick and while still dribbling too much wasn’t shooting (especially from 3) like he normally does. Rowan was a problem though because in this game he decided to take 15 dribbles to start the offense. This meant we were working with a 10 second shot clock and nobody was getting any touches. As a result Heath, Bristol, Massoud were chucking up shots when they finally touched the ball. There wasn’t enough passing or “MOVING”. 8 team assists is reflective of this. Supreme actually had a decent offensive output which kept us somewhat in the game but this team is built on 3 pt shooting so passing the ball and getting open looks is vital. As mentioned before the season size/rebounding will be a problem for this team if we don’t get a transfer big in this holiday window. Fielder is just too small right now to play the five. It’s going to get really ugly when we face Klingon, Kalkbrenner, Dixon, Marquette without another serviceable big man. Agree with this. Add in the fact that apparently the team does not have players who can thrive in either a man or zone defense. Whatever is going on with Heath , it is apparent that he cannot stay with any quicker guard. Epps is not much better and Rowan is inconsistent. Worse than the guards however, the interior defense is non-existent. Any opposing guard that can drive into the lane is almost certain to get a quality shot or able to dish to an open big when a Hoya comes to stop the drive. There is no defensive help. Not certain what Cooley's track record is as a defensive coach but he is going to have to figure this out quickly or this team will not be competitive with anyone in the BE other than DePaul. Even in a rebuild, no one signed up for another 2-3 win season in BE play. I think it's pretty obvious, after 12 games, that our defensive philosophy is to limit opponents' 3-point attempts and heavily contest those 3-pointers that opponents do shoot. The philosophy is that on this year's Hoyas team, we have "elite" 3-point shooters (term used by Cooley in last night's press conference). If we shoot more 3s than our opponents, and make more since we have better shooters, we have a good chance to win with this set of personnel. That's the staff's prescription for this year's roster. The problem with that is when we run opponents' shooters off of the 3-point line, they then can drive to the basket without much to worry about, because we don't have a rim defender and we're not helping off other 3-point shooters. Supreme Cook does the best he can inside defensively, but he's listed (generously) at 6'9", 229 pounds. He's not a plus shot blocker at the Big East level. So basically we're trading 3-pointers, which opponents at their best would shoot at ~40% level, for high percentage, in the lane 2-point shots. And we don't have guys in the paint ready to get rebounds, because we're not helping off 3-point shooters and getting our defenders into the lane. This means that even if opponents miss a fairly uncontested 2-pointer in the lane, they can crash the glass and have a strong opportunity for second chance points.
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bluegray79
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Post by bluegray79 on Dec 20, 2023 10:55:25 GMT -5
Supreme is a beast and is doing all he came here to do and more. Love this guy. As advertised, he brings a high motor, hard-nosed toughness, heads down work ethic, and above average athleticism. He surprises me at least once or twice a game. Really liked his fearlessness in going inside against the tall trees. The outcome isn't always pretty, but the man is bringing it every game. If he can get up to 60-70% FT shooting, it could mean another 5 points a game. I have the same admiration for Wayne. Heads are in the game, sometimes a step ahead, and always moving with energy/urgency.
Believe in the build -- this year will be a lot like last night -- tough to watch at times, hinting at future promise, and full of fight for 40 minutes. It won't be boring and better days are ahead.
Hoya Saxa.
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Post by hsaxon on Dec 20, 2023 11:01:58 GMT -5
We need a tough 7-foot center and a tough 6'8" or 6'9" power forward. So weird to read that because I agree we need a Big East quality C for next year which don't exactly grow on trees because they need to do multiple things like switch off of guys and credibly cover different positions, go inside/outside, and bang inside and defensively rebound, and yet I think people are really missing how absolutely perfectly Supreme Cook fits the second part of that sentence (the tough 6'8" or 6'9" power forward). Supreme is doing a lot of things you want really, really well and I don't think the defensive rebounding / blocking out is a one-player responsibility. I like Supreme - doing the absolute best he can. I agree.
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kettlehill
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by kettlehill on Dec 20, 2023 11:10:39 GMT -5
This loss bothered me more than most- I guess I had unrealistic expectations. Butler certainly provided a template for stopping our offense- limit 3 point shooting (to state the obvious). EC seems to have a crush on Ish and I am not sure why- maybe his communication skills? He regularly leads the team in minutes played and from the eyeball test, he should not. And Heath? As someone has said- our 5th year players are not helping much, regularly, especially on D.
Epps, Brumbaugh, Cook, Styles and Bristol. With Heath and Massoud off the bench.
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hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by hoyaboya on Dec 20, 2023 11:21:30 GMT -5
This loss bothered me more than most- I guess I had unrealistic expectations. Butler certainly provided a template for stopping our offense- limit 3 point shooting (to state the obvious). EC seems to have a crush on Ish and I am not sure why- maybe his communication skills? He regularly leads the team in minutes played and from the eyeball test, he should not. And Heath? As someone has said- our 5th year players are not helping much, regularly, especially on D. Epps, Brumbaugh, Cook, Styles and Bristol. With Heath and Massoud off the bench. I would put Fielder in for Bristol and play Styles at the 3. Use Heath and Massoud as instant offense off the bench until they get better at other parts of their games. Hard part is that they are the most experienced players and coaches usually like to build their culture around those guys. Obviously we don't know what goes on behind closed doors and how much Heath/Massoud are "leaders" on this team. My guess is they do serve a leadership role, which is why Cooley doesn't want to move off of them. But man, are their limitations obvious. If they aren't making 3s, they aren't much help on the basketball court.
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hoyazeke
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by hoyazeke on Dec 20, 2023 11:35:10 GMT -5
We are so much more skilled than Butler but they are the tougher, more physical team... Is this a joke? Did you not watch the game. I don't think they made a jump shot the entire 2nd half. Most of their O was bullying us to the rim and then getting the reb once they missed the shot. They are a much better defensive team and much more physical team but that won't be the case next year. Butler will lose in the 1st rd of the tourney....
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