hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Oct 5, 2023 15:08:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the post. Recommended reading. Two points from your message really hit home: Pitito to St. John's will be a shooting star for two or three years but he will leave that program in ruins when all is said and done. Ed's old boss, the Rev. Brian Shanley OP, was hired by St. John's from PC to arrest a 30 year institutional decline at that school and basketball is a driver of admissions and interest at St. John's that it will never be at Georgetown. How do you address bringing down an 85% admit rate and increase a 4% alumni giving rate? Basketball. Georgetown doesn't have that pressure and neither does Cooley. At 53, he can play the long game, and Georgetown is all about the long game. So on the age stuff, Cooley is definitely younger than Pitino - almost all coaches are outside of Cliff Ellis - but Ed will be the second oldest Georgetown coach - at least in modern history - when he makes his Hoyas debut in November. At 54, Cooley is just a year younger than Patrick Ewing was back on 11/12/2017 against Jacksonville. I'm not sure how long the game is here. Age on Hoyas coaching debut John Thompson Jr 31 Craig Esherick 42 JT3 38 Ewing 55 Cooley 54 Probably not a road we want to go down, but if we’re being honest, who looks healthier right now: 54-year old Ed Cooley or 70-year old Rick Pitino? Energy-wise, if you look at what they've done since being hired, Pitino has been more active than Cooley.
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conshyhoya
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Post by conshyhoya on Oct 5, 2023 15:11:29 GMT -5
On his comment about DC-area recruits, Cooley hasn't really walked the talk since becoming coach of the Hoyas. Specifically, these are the players he has given scholarships to: Dontrez Styles (Kinston, NC) Rowan Brumbaugh (Washington, DC) Jayden Epps (Norfolk, VA) Drew Fielder (Boise, ID) Supreme Cook (East Orange, NJ) Ismael Massoud (East Harlem, NY) Kayvaun Mulready (Worcester, MA) Thomas Sorber (Trenton, NJ) Caleb Williams (Washington, DC) For those counting, only 3 of his 9 recruits to date are from the DMV, with one of those being Epps from Norfolk, VA - which is a 3.5 hour drive to DC. What about Drew McKenna? Isn't he Baltimore.
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Oct 5, 2023 17:27:59 GMT -5
So on the age stuff, Cooley is definitely younger than Pitino - almost all coaches are outside of Cliff Ellis - but Ed will be the second oldest Georgetown coach - at least in modern history - when he makes his Hoyas debut in November. At 54, Cooley is just a year younger than Patrick Ewing was back on 11/12/2017 against Jacksonville. I'm not sure how long the game is here. Age on Hoyas coaching debut John Thompson Jr 31 Craig Esherick 42 JT3 38 Ewing 55 Cooley 54 Probably not a road we want to go down, but if we’re being honest, who looks healthier right now: 54-year old Ed Cooley or 70-year old Rick Pitino? Energy-wise, if you look at what they've done since being hired, Pitino has been more active than Cooley. This is a cheap shot and I don't think accurate. I haven't seen either man in person in a long time, but while Pitino looks great, he also looks about 70 (a good 70!). (I would also note that when articles are written about him they frequently include photos of him from Louisville where he looks much younger than he looks today.) And Ed Cooley looks to be in his mid-50s. He may not be super physically fit, but it's not like he's obese or anything like that. If you listen to Cooley (like I did yesterday), the guy oozes energy. He's all over the place, as someone else mentioned--everybody seems to already have an Ed Cooley story on campus, and students have been there for just over a month. To try to portray his as unhealthy or less active as a result is silly. To say "Pitino has been more active than Cooley" is highly selective. By all accounts, Cooley has done interviews (but not enough for EtomicB's liking), off-the-record media availabilities, meetings and Zooms with alumni, interacted with tons of students and alumni in his short time on campus, used move-in as a way to foster relationships with freshman (the most impressionable potential fans we have, plus he is constantly out there recruiting (not only new players but the ones who already committed in 2024), he's running practices, visiting local high school programs, participating in clinics, ingratiating himself with his players, doing dinners at the Tombs, etc. I truly don't see how anybody can say Cooley has not been active. It's absurd. Whether Pitino is "more active" than Cooley is subjective of course. But, I don't think that the answer is clear. They're also very different people. Pitino is a consummate marketer and media guy. He knows how to work the media, and in his case, he has local media like the New York Post happy to oblige. Pitino is very much a promoter of his program and himself. Just look at the comments he made over the last two years making it clear he was ready to leave Iona as soon as the circumstances allowing that arose. Those comments were no coincidence, Pitino knew what he was doing. I don't know Cooley the person super well, but while he seems like a marketer as well, I just don't think he is much of a media-hound as Pitino, which is always going to make Pitino seem more active. It also helps that Pitino gets a lot more media attention simply by virtue of being a famous Hall of Fame coach, too.
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Oct 5, 2023 17:39:47 GMT -5
You just listened to a new coach tell the HHC that the infrastructure around the program was terrible and cost them recruits but I'm unrealistic for wanting those folks who are still in their positions to change how they go about their jobs within a few months of a new staff? I believe there's a difference between turning around the "culture &/or attitude/behavior" in a program quickly and turning around a program in terms of wins & losses quickly. The culture change is what I'm speaking to. A giant part of the terrible infrastructure that Coach Cooley is referring to is the apathetic fan base which became that way after decades of feeling like afterthoughts by the leaders of the program some of whom are still in charge btw. The same thoughts can be applied to media relationships as well. Hard for me to believe folks like Reed or JDG can't just choose to do better culture & attitude-wise right now, to demand more from the teams Coach Cooley mentioned getting wins from are needed to build a solid base for actual wins. As I've stated many times before this program was just as bad off the court as they were on it so they need the seismic change Coach Cooley spoke of as well. I know you're a huge fan and I appreciate your posts, we just fundamentally disagree on this. As far as the lack of infrastructure, of course things should be different than they were before Cooley. And we should try to make the necessary changes as quickly as possible. It was clear from Cooley's comments yesterday that we aren't where we want to be. Because things take time. Your position seems to be that, no matter how awful things were at the end of the Ewing era that things should be operating at fully capacity now a few months later. I have said many times, this is simply unrealistic. Improvement? Sure. But, you seem to want us operating like an athletic program and university that are well-oiled machines, and I am not even sure we had a machine at all in March, to extend the metaphor. This is not a video game. It's real life. Moving institutions and morphing them into something better takes time. Is the lack of fans are a part of the infrastructure being bad, yes. But, this is a symptom of a lot of things. Losing, primarily. But, also coaches and an administration that really made minimal efforts to engage the community. In both JT3 (who managed to avoid the negative consequences of that for a long time by winning) and Ewing we had coaches who spent almost all their time in McDonough/TAC and rarely interacted with anybody on the outside. Under Ewing, we had Ronny Thompson calling the shots, and not even being friendly with recent alumni like Chris Wright. So, sure, we need more fans, but the way to make fans less apathetic is to win games, but that also isn't going to be an overnight thing either. As far as Reed or DeGioia go, I agree, I want them to do as much as possible to push this thing forward. But, university Presidents generally don't do that stuff. Frankly, given DeGioia's utter lack of competency handling our program, particularly the Ewing era, I don't want him making decisions on how things should be run. He's already a proven failure on this account (and costing the university MILLIONS it will never get back). I think there are seismic changes occurring and the fact is--I know you don't like hearing this--we don't know everything going on behind the scenes. Yesterday Cooley mentioned the alumni outreach, for example, and they had been trying to reach out to 5 alumni players a day. I never heard that before. I get the desire for things to move even more quickly than they have. I really do. I truly want to win this year, with our current staff, and our current roster, even if it's a small roster. If we don't win as much as I want, will I be disappointed? Maybe, but if I see progress toward being better, toward winning games, and putting a better team out there I'll be pleased. Lastly, and this isn't directed at you, I think Pitino will inevitably be the comparison because we may have been able to get him as our coach. In the short term, I have no doubt Pitino would have been more likely to get Georgetown to win games, get to the NCAA tournament, etc. He's a fantastic Hall of Fame coach. But, I do think it's interesting that most Cooley v. Pitino comparisons focus on the now, rather than long term. Whether the move will have worked out for Georgetown will really depend on how things are in 10-15 years at both Georgetown AND St. John's. What will Pitino leave in his wake? Who knows. He could elevate St. John's to a level where they get another great coach. Or not. Time will tell.
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TC
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Post by TC on Oct 5, 2023 18:17:46 GMT -5
Why not just write "I've never actually bothered to listen to Ed Cooley speak", it's shorter and more concise. we are all rooting for Cooley to succeed, but the knee-jerk defensiveness on the part of so many here is getting tiresome. I think it's fine to voice the opinion that the run-up to this first season has been less than inspiring. Not sure why the same posters feel the need to jump in to try to stifle any hint of criticism over and over again - especially when these are the same posters who were tirelessly, unrelentingly negative the past 5 seasons. It's amazing to me that some people can defend Ewing for 6 years and then not give the next guy any sort of honeymoon or rebuild period, but you're entitled to be wrong 100% of the time I guess.
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guru
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Post by guru on Oct 5, 2023 22:25:36 GMT -5
we are all rooting for Cooley to succeed, but the knee-jerk defensiveness on the part of so many here is getting tiresome. I think it's fine to voice the opinion that the run-up to this first season has been less than inspiring. Not sure why the same posters feel the need to jump in to try to stifle any hint of criticism over and over again - especially when these are the same posters who were tirelessly, unrelentingly negative the past 5 seasons. It's amazing to me that some people can defend Ewing for 6 years and then not give the next guy any sort of honeymoon or rebuild period, but you're entitled to be wrong 100% of the time I guess. Who in the world defended Ewing for 6 years? You’re just making things up at this point.
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jackofjoy
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Post by jackofjoy on Oct 5, 2023 23:00:09 GMT -5
So on the age stuff, Cooley is definitely younger than Pitino - almost all coaches are outside of Cliff Ellis - but Ed will be the second oldest Georgetown coach - at least in modern history - when he makes his Hoyas debut in November. At 54, Cooley is just a year younger than Patrick Ewing was back on 11/12/2017 against Jacksonville. I'm not sure how long the game is here. Age on Hoyas coaching debut John Thompson Jr 31 Craig Esherick 42 JT3 38 Ewing 55 Cooley 54 Probably not a road we want to go down, but if we’re being honest, who looks healthier right now: 54-year old Ed Cooley or 70-year old Rick Pitino? Energy-wise, if you look at what they've done since being hired, Pitino has been more active than Cooley. Cooley. And by a long shot. Ricky is media savvy and uses some glamour shots for the press. But he looked like a cadaver in a most recent candid social media post. But you know this.
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guru
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Post by guru on Oct 6, 2023 7:38:38 GMT -5
So on the age stuff, Cooley is definitely younger than Pitino - almost all coaches are outside of Cliff Ellis - but Ed will be the second oldest Georgetown coach - at least in modern history - when he makes his Hoyas debut in November. At 54, Cooley is just a year younger than Patrick Ewing was back on 11/12/2017 against Jacksonville. I'm not sure how long the game is here. Age on Hoyas coaching debut John Thompson Jr 31 Craig Esherick 42 JT3 38 Ewing 55 Cooley 54 Probably not a road we want to go down, but if we’re being honest, who looks healthier right now: 54-year old Ed Cooley or 70-year old Rick Pitino? Energy-wise, if you look at what they've done since being hired, Pitino has been more active than Cooley. This post is really out of bounds, even for this poster.
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Oct 6, 2023 8:07:16 GMT -5
Probably not a road we want to go down, but if we’re being honest, who looks healthier right now: 54-year old Ed Cooley or 70-year old Rick Pitino? Energy-wise, if you look at what they've done since being hired, Pitino has been more active than Cooley. Cooley. And by a long shot. Ricky is media savvy and uses some glamour shots for the press. But he looked like a cadaver in a most recent candid social media post. But you know this. Recent non-glamour shots of each guy posted onto their individual X pages.
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Post by FromTheBeginning on Oct 6, 2023 9:41:07 GMT -5
Is ther a chance in hell Pitino actually wrote that post himself?
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Oct 6, 2023 9:52:20 GMT -5
Is ther a chance in hell Pitino actually wrote that post himself? Why would you think he didn't write it? And even if he didn't, does it matter? The point is that he is getting communications out to the public that he approves and helps sell the St. John's program. # of X posts since being hired by St. John's and Georgetown respectively: Pitino: 57 Cooley: 12 I know, I know, we have to give it time, Cooley's playing "the long game".
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Oct 6, 2023 10:04:59 GMT -5
Is ther a chance in hell Pitino actually wrote that post himself? Why would you think he didn't write it? And even if he didn't, does it matter? The point is that he is getting communications out to the public that he approves and helps sell the St. John's program. # of X posts since being hired by St. John's and Georgetown respectively: Pitino: 57 Cooley: 12 I know, I know, we have to give it time, Cooley's playing "the long game". 🤣 So many excuses for something so easy to fix… And just in case: I like Cooley.
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TC
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Post by TC on Oct 6, 2023 10:06:34 GMT -5
Yes, we should really judge program effort by random tweets where you give a shout out to Panathanikos or the Yankees.
# of tweets by the Coach where the Coach is on campus, not at the gym :
Pitino : 0 Cooley : 8
I'm not going to comment on vitality of physical appearance, I'm not sure why that is an actual argument because it is laughable and I feel like that is being mean to the elderly.
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Oct 6, 2023 11:14:44 GMT -5
This stuff about health is really out of bounds and pathetic. Both Pitino and Cooley are plenty healthy. I don't think either St. John's or Georgetown have to worry about the health of their coach at the moment. It's just an effort to heap more scorn on a coach that certain posters will never like. Even for HoyaTalk, this is sub-basement stuff.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Oct 6, 2023 14:22:11 GMT -5
You just listened to a new coach tell the HHC that the infrastructure around the program was terrible and cost them recruits but I'm unrealistic for wanting those folks who are still in their positions to change how they go about their jobs within a few months of a new staff? I believe there's a difference between turning around the "culture &/or attitude/behavior" in a program quickly and turning around a program in terms of wins & losses quickly. The culture change is what I'm speaking to. A giant part of the terrible infrastructure that Coach Cooley is referring to is the apathetic fan base which became that way after decades of feeling like afterthoughts by the leaders of the program some of whom are still in charge btw. The same thoughts can be applied to media relationships as well. Hard for me to believe folks like Reed or JDG can't just choose to do better culture & attitude-wise right now, to demand more from the teams Coach Cooley mentioned getting wins from are needed to build a solid base for actual wins. As I've stated many times before this program was just as bad off the court as they were on it so they need the seismic change Coach Cooley spoke of as well. I know you're a huge fan and I appreciate your posts, we just fundamentally disagree on this. As far as the lack of infrastructure, of course things should be different than they were before Cooley. And we should try to make the necessary changes as quickly as possible. It was clear from Cooley's comments yesterday that we aren't where we want to be. Because things take time. Your position seems to be that, no matter how awful things were at the end of the Ewing era that things should be operating at fully capacity now a few months later. I have said many times, this is simply unrealistic. Improvement? Sure. But, you seem to want us operating like an athletic program and university that are well-oiled machines, and I am not even sure we had a machine at all in March, to extend the metaphor. This is not a video game. It's real life. Moving institutions and morphing them into something better takes time.Is the lack of fans are a part of the infrastructure being bad, yes. But, this is a symptom of a lot of things. Losing, primarily. But, also coaches and an administration that really made minimal efforts to engage the community. In both JT3 (who managed to avoid the negative consequences of that for a long time by winning) and Ewing we had coaches who spent almost all their time in McDonough/TAC and rarely interacted with anybody on the outside. Under Ewing, we had Ronny Thompson calling the shots, and not even being friendly with recent alumni like Chris Wright. So, sure, we need more fans, but the way to make fans less apathetic is to win games, but that also isn't going to be an overnight thing either. As far as Reed or DeGioia go, I agree, I want them to do as much as possible to push this thing forward. But, university Presidents generally don't do that stuff. Frankly, given DeGioia's utter lack of competency handling our program, particularly the Ewing era, I don't want him making decisions on how things should be run. He's already a proven failure on this account (and costing the university MILLIONS it will never get back). I think there are seismic changes occurring and the fact is--I know you don't like hearing this--we don't know everything going on behind the scenes. Yesterday Cooley mentioned the alumni outreach, for example, and they had been trying to reach out to 5 alumni players a day. I never heard that before. I get the desire for things to move even more quickly than they have. I really do. I truly want to win this year, with our current staff, and our current roster, even if it's a small roster. If we don't win as much as I want, will I be disappointed? Maybe, but if I see progress toward being better, toward winning games, and putting a better team out there I'll be pleased. Lastly, and this isn't directed at you, I think Pitino will inevitably be the comparison because we may have been able to get him as our coach. In the short term, I have no doubt Pitino would have been more likely to get Georgetown to win games, get to the NCAA tournament, etc. He's a fantastic Hall of Fame coach. But, I do think it's interesting that most Cooley v. Pitino comparisons focus on the now, rather than long term. Whether the move will have worked out for Georgetown will really depend on how things are in 10-15 years at both Georgetown AND St. John's. What will Pitino leave in his wake? Who knows. He could elevate St. John's to a level where they get another great coach. Or not. Time will tell. This isn't my position at all, my point is that we should know what measures are being taken to right the ship, especially given the fact that one of the biggest failings in the program over the decades has been its lack of transparency & openness. I think you & others also ignore the fact that the off-court leaders who are still here contributed greatly to the abysmal state the program was in at the end of the Ewing era. I get that Lee Reed was sidelined in some ways but he was here & he sent out the vote of confidence memo so I can't give him a pass. I'm not a fan of the "institution" reasoning to call for patience, there are 3 people with pull over the program, and that isn't a lot of hurdles to clear. Cooley mentioned mending fences with older players in his press conference & also when he joined Gene Smith's podcast, it's a great & long-overdue initiative that everyone in leadership should take part in. The Pitino talk is kinda funny to me because I'm not seeing much daylight between his recruiting & Cooley's recruiting. They both were rejected by bigger fish in the portal, and both were able to secure solid pieces but not championship level pieces.. That's why I don't get the Pitino "wants to win now narrative" looks to me like he's building for the future and also creating a buzz now so the program will be more attractive to potential recruits...
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Post by professorhoya on Oct 6, 2023 15:50:53 GMT -5
I know you're a huge fan and I appreciate your posts, we just fundamentally disagree on this. As far as the lack of infrastructure, of course things should be different than they were before Cooley. And we should try to make the necessary changes as quickly as possible. It was clear from Cooley's comments yesterday that we aren't where we want to be. Because things take time. Your position seems to be that, no matter how awful things were at the end of the Ewing era that things should be operating at fully capacity now a few months later. I have said many times, this is simply unrealistic. Improvement? Sure. But, you seem to want us operating like an athletic program and university that are well-oiled machines, and I am not even sure we had a machine at all in March, to extend the metaphor. This is not a video game. It's real life. Moving institutions and morphing them into something better takes time.Is the lack of fans are a part of the infrastructure being bad, yes. But, this is a symptom of a lot of things. Losing, primarily. But, also coaches and an administration that really made minimal efforts to engage the community. In both JT3 (who managed to avoid the negative consequences of that for a long time by winning) and Ewing we had coaches who spent almost all their time in McDonough/TAC and rarely interacted with anybody on the outside. Under Ewing, we had Ronny Thompson calling the shots, and not even being friendly with recent alumni like Chris Wright. So, sure, we need more fans, but the way to make fans less apathetic is to win games, but that also isn't going to be an overnight thing either. As far as Reed or DeGioia go, I agree, I want them to do as much as possible to push this thing forward. But, university Presidents generally don't do that stuff. Frankly, given DeGioia's utter lack of competency handling our program, particularly the Ewing era, I don't want him making decisions on how things should be run. He's already a proven failure on this account (and costing the university MILLIONS it will never get back). I think there are seismic changes occurring and the fact is--I know you don't like hearing this--we don't know everything going on behind the scenes. Yesterday Cooley mentioned the alumni outreach, for example, and they had been trying to reach out to 5 alumni players a day. I never heard that before. I get the desire for things to move even more quickly than they have. I really do. I truly want to win this year, with our current staff, and our current roster, even if it's a small roster. If we don't win as much as I want, will I be disappointed? Maybe, but if I see progress toward being better, toward winning games, and putting a better team out there I'll be pleased. Lastly, and this isn't directed at you, I think Pitino will inevitably be the comparison because we may have been able to get him as our coach. In the short term, I have no doubt Pitino would have been more likely to get Georgetown to win games, get to the NCAA tournament, etc. He's a fantastic Hall of Fame coach. But, I do think it's interesting that most Cooley v. Pitino comparisons focus on the now, rather than long term. Whether the move will have worked out for Georgetown will really depend on how things are in 10-15 years at both Georgetown AND St. John's. What will Pitino leave in his wake? Who knows. He could elevate St. John's to a level where they get another great coach. Or not. Time will tell. This isn't my position at all, my point is that we should know what measures are being taken to right the ship, especially given the fact that one of the biggest failings in the program over the decades has been its lack of transparency & openness. I think you & others also ignore the fact that the off-court leaders who are still here contributed greatly to the abysmal state the program was in at the end of the Ewing era. I get that Lee Reed was sidelined in some ways but he was here & he sent out the vote of confidence memo so I can't give him a pass. I'm not a fan of the "institution" reasoning to call for patience, there are 3 people with pull over the program, and that isn't a lot of hurdles to clear. Cooley mentioned mending fences with older players in his press conference & also when he joined Gene Smith's podcast, it's a great & long-overdue initiative that everyone in leadership should take part in. The Pitino talk is kinda funny to me because I'm not seeing much daylight between his recruiting & Cooley's recruiting. They both were rejected by bigger fish in the portal, and both were able to secure solid pieces but not championship level pieces.. That's why I don't get the Pitino "wants to win now narrative" looks to me like he's building for the future and also creating a buzz now so the program will be more attractive to potential recruits... Cat got your tongue E? Normally you immediately post in the 2nd time transfer but you are suspiciously silent at the latest UNC two time transfer waiver ruling.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
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Post by DanMcQ on Oct 9, 2023 0:18:48 GMT -5
Wow - as usual for this time of year, the actual games cannot get here soon enough.
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jackofjoy
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 237
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Post by jackofjoy on Oct 9, 2023 12:53:11 GMT -5
Wow - as usual for this time of year, the actual games cannot get here soon enough. Please clarify "actual" - the freebie against LeMoyne, the first P5 OOC game, the first BE game?
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bluegray79
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by bluegray79 on Oct 9, 2023 13:04:51 GMT -5
Any and all! Yeah, it doesn't take much. I'm ready, too -- let's go!
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mapei
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Posts: 2,088
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Post by mapei on Oct 9, 2023 16:06:26 GMT -5
The comparisons to Pitino are really unrealistic. There was no way in hell Georgetown was going to hire a white guy with a sketchy character record. While I personally think Pitino was the best coach available and I would have been excited to have him, that was never a real possibility at this university. Cooley seems to me to have a lot of positives going for him, including his candor IMO. I'm rooting for him.
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