Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Sept 25, 2023 15:21:57 GMT -5
As someone who went to the law school there, I can say with firsthand experience that Vandy fans excel at complaining about officiating. Like the Jeff Green winner đ€Ș
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blueeagle
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Post by blueeagle on Sept 25, 2023 16:26:15 GMT -5
As someone who went to the law school there, I can say with firsthand experience that Vandy fans excel at complaining about officiating. Like the Jeff Green winner đ€Ș I remember walking out of the Meadowlands and encountering a group of surly Vandy fans after that game. I was wearing a Georgetown sweatshirt. I overheard them vehemently objecting to how the endgame was officiated. I proceeded to chant âsafety schoolâ as I walked away. Hubris of youth.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 25, 2023 19:46:03 GMT -5
We are not in a conference with our peers. We belong in the ACC. Who are our "peers"? When the ACC was created in 1953, it was a group of seven Southern Conference schools who wanted a league of their own amidst smaller teams like VMI, The Citadel, Washington & Lee, and even George Washington. The ACC was the early 1950s version of college realignment: Clemson, Duke, Maryland, UNC, NC State, South Carolina, and Wake Forest. An eighth team was added in Virginia after Penn allegedly turned it down because of segregation for athletic teams in those states. But Georgetown was never a peer of these schools as it had moved away from those opponents 30 years earlier and had dropped football just before the ACC was founded. Fast forward to 2023. Georgetown really isn't a peer to ACC or Big East schools. Brand-wise, it orbits with a group of national, Division I private research universities (Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, USC), but without the applied sciences and the research dollars these schools enjoy, and of course, the endowments. Georgetown is an academic outlier in the aforementioned group (e.g., no applied sciences) and an athletic outlier as well: a hodge-podge of very high-budget basketball, very low-budget football (one of just two Eastern non-scholarship football programs left outside the Ivy) and a variety of other sports that are variously funded and supported. Outside of Duke and maybe BC, I don't see a lot of peer attraction to the other ACC schools, nor do I suspect Miami and SMU see Georgetown as an aspirant program. Specifying "Division I" and excluding the Ivies is a form of cherry-picking, methinks. Brand-wise, Georgetown orbits not just with the schools you mentioned, but also D-III schools like Johns Hopkins, Emory, Tufts, and UChicago, plus the non-HYP Ivies (even as it trails all of them in endowment). There's no perfect analogue academically or athletically, but then again, there's significant variation at the margins among the entire Top 25, etc. cohort (e.g., Princeton, Brown, and Dartmouth lack law schools; Princeton and Brown don't have a business school). Those are all aspirational peers in some ways and non-peers is others. The closest athletic program and overall institutional positioning near-peer may well be Villanova, which now sits in a 6-way tie for #67 in USNWR with GW(!), Miami (!!), Pitt (!!!), Syracuse (!!!!), and UMass. Aside from their basketball program (and, among the few who care, their football program), Georgetown does not see them as an aspirational target to emulate. Marching to the beat of your own unique drum is certainly one of the things that makes measuring oneself against others more difficult and leads to even more all-over-the-place debates than the usual horse races, because of the perception-and-reality that you're not even playing the same game here. But that should be recognized as a strength and a reason to focus on growing within the institutional identity, rather than taken as a cause for insecurity and following some crowd, any crowd deemed successful.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 25, 2023 22:18:50 GMT -5
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Sept 25, 2023 22:42:24 GMT -5
I would say the school we resemble the most is Duke. I had a number of classmates that chose GU over Duke. My guess is students today may lean more towards Duke.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 25, 2023 23:09:26 GMT -5
I would say the school we resemble the most is Duke. I had a number of classmates that chose GU over Duke. My guess is students today may lean more towards Duke. Duke has two major undergraduate schools: Trinity College (Arts & Sciences) and Engineering. No business, no nursing, no international affairs. Public policy is still growing and a school on the environment appears to be on GU's post-campaign planner, so to speak. Penn has three of the four (Arts & Sciences, Business, Nursing) but Georgetown has no applied sciences and seems unable to cultivate any progress in this regard. Is it an "ethos and culture" thing?
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 26, 2023 7:08:27 GMT -5
I would say the school we resemble the most is Duke. I had a number of classmates that chose GU over Duke. My guess is students today may lean more towards Duke. Duke has two major undergraduate schools: Trinity College (Arts & Sciences) and Engineering. No business, no nursing, no international affairs. Public policy is still growing and a school on the environment appears to be on GU's post-campaign planner, so to speak. Penn has three of the four (Arts & Sciences, Business, Nursing) but Georgetown has no applied sciences and seems unable to cultivate any progress in this regard. Is it an "ethos and culture" thing? It's a combination of a facilities thing and a "we are a residential college" thing. Most applied sciences are very facility-intensive, and there's no ability to massively expand that footprint on Main Campus. Meanwhile, while one could imagine creating a second, STEM-based campus elsewhere in the area, it couldn't be anywhere nearby. Creating a dorm for public policy seniors down by the Law Center was a big enough departure from the residential/Hilltop-centered construct - having undergrad facilities out at NIST or White Oak or whatever feels like a disaggregational bridge too far.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Sept 26, 2023 11:00:42 GMT -5
Wish we could take Visitation School by force. đ€Ł A number of classmates had to choose between Duke, Georgetown and Penn. Many were SFS, so GU made sense.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 26, 2023 11:44:30 GMT -5
Wish we could take Visitation School by force. đ€Ł A number of classmates had to choose between Duke, Georgetown and Penn. Many were SFS, so GU made sense. Even if we could, or had kept what is now The Cloisters, the neighbors and the Old Georgetown Board would conspire to prevent any modern STEM facility of sufficient scale from being built. The Lot K footprint was big enough, but with no ability to admit more undergrads, it wouldn't have made sense to start up new undergraduate programs. So instead that site went to the Hospital - the incontrovertible true strength when it comes to applied science at Georgetown is biomed.
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Post by WilsonBlvdHoya on Sept 26, 2023 11:59:00 GMT -5
Wish we could take Visitation School by force. đ€Ł A number of classmates had to choose between Duke, Georgetown and Penn. Many were SFS, so GU made sense. Bigs, my understanding is that GU had the opportunity to "take" Visitation in the late 70s when the school/order of Visitation sisters was in financial distress but Tim Healy chose not to do so. Visitation has flourished ever since. IMHO, that was a bigger unforced error than the Mt. Vernon debacle...DFW might have more insight into the history..... My other sense, from an Admissions standpoint, is that Duke/Penn are the competitors to which GU most aspires (taking 65-80+% of cross admits, even accounting for SFS). As a grad alum of the West Philly place, I can certainly understand why since GU is still comparatively and substantially under-resourced....
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hoyaguy
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Post by hoyaguy on Sept 26, 2023 13:13:41 GMT -5
Wish we could take Visitation School by force. đ€Ł A number of classmates had to choose between Duke, Georgetown and Penn. Many were SFS, so GU made sense. That is what I said every morning when I was awoken by the loud kids in gym class outside when I lived in a Henle that had the bedrooms facing their field. And their campus is so nice as well lol
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 26, 2023 13:30:23 GMT -5
Wish we could take Visitation School by force. đ€Ł A number of classmates had to choose between Duke, Georgetown and Penn. Many were SFS, so GU made sense. Bigs, my understanding is that GU had the opportunity to "take" Visitation in the late 70s when the school/order of Visitation sisters was in financial distress but Tim Healy chose not to do so. Visitation has flourished ever since. IMHO, that was a bigger unforced error than the Mt. Vernon debacle...DFW might have more insight into the history..... Visitation was only putting the land known today as the Cloisters up for sale. Per the Jan. 26, 1979 HOYA: "After several years of debating the pros and cons, the Board of Directors of Georgetown University have decided not to purchase eight acres of land at the cost of $4.5 million from the Convent of the Visitation. Assistant to the President Charles Meng cited problems in financing the purchase and questionable need for the property as major obstacles."
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Post by WilsonBlvdHoya on Sept 26, 2023 13:59:52 GMT -5
Bigs, my understanding is that GU had the opportunity to "take" Visitation in the late 70s when the school/order of Visitation sisters was in financial distress but Tim Healy chose not to do so. Visitation has flourished ever since. IMHO, that was a bigger unforced error than the Mt. Vernon debacle...DFW might have more insight into the history..... Visitation was only putting the land known today as the Cloisters up for sale. Per the Jan. 26, 1979 HOYA: "After several years of debating the pros and cons, the Board of Directors of Georgetown University have decided not to purchase eight acres of land at the cost of $4.5 million from the Convent of the Visitation. Assistant to the President Charles Meng cited problems in financing the purchase and questionable need for the property as major obstacles." "Questionable need for the property." Classic glacial/sclerotic GU administrative framing/thinking.....
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Sept 27, 2023 5:40:16 GMT -5
Who are our "peers"? When the ACC was created in 1953, it was a group of seven Southern Conference schools who wanted a league of their own amidst smaller teams like VMI, The Citadel, Washington & Lee, and even George Washington. The ACC was the early 1950s version of college realignment: Clemson, Duke, Maryland, UNC, NC State, South Carolina, and Wake Forest. An eighth team was added in Virginia after Penn allegedly turned it down because of segregation for athletic teams in those states. But Georgetown was never a peer of these schools as it had moved away from those opponents 30 years earlier and had dropped football just before the ACC was founded. Fast forward to 2023. Georgetown really isn't a peer to ACC or Big East schools. Brand-wise, it orbits with a group of national, Division I private research universities (Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, USC), but without the applied sciences and the research dollars these schools enjoy, and of course, the endowments. Georgetown is an academic outlier in the aforementioned group (e.g., no applied sciences) and an athletic outlier as well: a hodge-podge of very high-budget basketball, very low-budget football (one of just two Eastern non-scholarship football programs left outside the Ivy) and a variety of other sports that are variously funded and supported. Outside of Duke and maybe BC, I don't see a lot of peer attraction to the other ACC schools, nor do I suspect Miami and SMU see Georgetown as an aspirant program. Specifying "Division I" and excluding the Ivies is a form of cherry-picking, methinks. Brand-wise, Georgetown orbits not just with the schools you mentioned, but also D-III schools like Johns Hopkins, Emory, Tufts, and UChicago, plus the non-HYP Ivies (even as it trails all of them in endowment). There's no perfect analogue academically or athletically, but then again, there's significant variation at the margins among the entire Top 25, etc. cohort (e.g., Princeton, Brown, and Dartmouth lack law schools; Princeton and Brown don't have a business school). Those are all aspirational peers in some ways and non-peers is others. The closest athletic program and overall institutional positioning near-peer may well be Villanova, which now sits in a 6-way tie for #67 in USNWR with GW(!), Miami (!!), Pitt (!!!), Syracuse (!!!!), and UMass. Aside from their basketball program (and, among the few who care, their football program), Georgetown does not see them as an aspirational target to emulate. Marching to the beat of your own unique drum is certainly one of the things that makes measuring oneself against others more difficult and leads to even more all-over-the-place debates than the usual horse races, because of the perception-and-reality that you're not even playing the same game here. But that should be recognized as a strength and a reason to focus on growing within the institutional identity, rather than taken as a cause for insecurity and following some crowd, any crowd deemed successful. I agree with a lot of this, but on some level âwe just want to be the Best Georgetownâ starts to feel like a cop-out. Thereâs never going to a perfect match against which to benchmark ourselves. But thatâs true of just about any school. (Well, except Lehigh and Lafayette, which are totally the same place. đ)
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 27, 2023 9:40:44 GMT -5
I agree with a lot of this, but on some level âwe just want to be the Best Georgetownâ starts to feel like a cop-out. Thereâs never going to a perfect match against which to benchmark ourselves. But thatâs true of just about any school. (Well, except Lehigh and Lafayette, which are totally the same place. đ) Yeah, I mean, it's not really much different in concept from individual growth and self-improvement, right? We're all unique individuals, we cannot and should not attempt to just copy someone else whole hog. Instead, you measure and benchmark yourself against lots of different people based on the things you care about the most, the attributes that they have that you aspire to. Some important things, of course, are not really of a type that lends itself to quantification or ranking. One of the key realizations that I assume most people go through as they get older, but I think it's been particularly impactful for our generation, is the recognition that there's no real way to "win at life" - no one is keeping a Total Score, not even the Almighty if you're a believer. The art and science of strategy and management, then, both for an individual and an institution, is to evaluate and integrate all those different aspirations , work out which ones are in conflict or tension, and figure out how to deconflict them based on what matters most. But that constellation of things that matter most, and how, and why, is unique to each the individual or organization.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Oct 7, 2023 20:59:28 GMT -5
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Oct 8, 2023 21:38:34 GMT -5
I know that schools game the rankings to improve their scores. Doesnât surprise me that some of the inputs get fudged.
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