conshyhoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 790
|
Post by conshyhoya on Jul 10, 2023 11:27:54 GMT -5
"Based on what I saw (at Kenner)" is a tough basis from which to draw conclusions about players' performances during the real season. We've all had our hopes and expectations crushed. Nevertheless.....nice to see Bristol have a strong showing. He'll get his chance for sure. Is not that tough a basis. While far from perfect it is as reliable as any measurement other than what that player did in his previous college season. There are a lot of Terp fans right now more excited about their upcoming season based upon reports about their players’ performances so far this summer in the KL. They don’t dismiss it as summer league but as signs of things to come. And besides as I always say rarely do people here stick up for a player’s chances if they don’t perform well in the KL. So why even post anything about their play in the KL at all, right? It is a lose-lose scenario. Also from my account at least when it comes to Bristol I am also taking into consideration all the other options on the team who could fill that role. I think Heath starts as he is your most proven scorer and possibly your best deep threat. Heath would be the 2 most likely so I see Bristol's competition being more Styles which Bristol has shown more at least in his Freshman year albeit against lesser competition. It will be interesting to see how he uses his pieces but I do think Bristol if he plays like he did at Howard probably gets some good minutes regardless if it is starting or off the bench. Hopefully last year didn't set him back too far and now with good coaching he will live up to his potential. He has the physical tools to make an impact. |
|
MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,426
|
Post by MCIGuy on Jul 10, 2023 11:41:04 GMT -5
Is not that tough a basis. While far from perfect it is as reliable as any measurement other than what that player did in his previous college season. There are a lot of Terp fans right now more excited about their upcoming season based upon reports about their players’ performances so far this summer in the KL. They don’t dismiss it as summer league but as signs of things to come. And besides as I always say rarely do people here stick up for a player’s chances if they don’t perform well in the KL. So why even post anything about their play in the KL at all, right? It is a lose-lose scenario. Also from my account at least when it comes to Bristol I am also taking into consideration all the other options on the team who could fill that role. I think Heath starts as he is your most proven scorer and possibly your best deep threat. Heath would be the 2 most likely so I see Bristol's competition being more Styles which Bristol has shown more at least in his Freshman year albeit against lesser competition. It will be interesting to see how he uses his pieces but I do think Bristol if he plays like he did at Howard probably gets some good minutes regardless if it is starting or off the bench. Hopefully last year didn't set him back too far and now with good coaching he will live up to his potential. He has the physical tools to make an impact. Heath is not starting over Epps imo. Cooley inherited Heath, he brought in Epps who has much more eligibility left. There may be a future for him beyond this upcoming season. So the only way Heath starts is if both him and Epps are in the backcourt. I see Heath getting at least 25 minutes a game even if he is not in the starting lineup. I see Rowan as a starter because he is the best pure pg on the team. There will be plenty of times in which Rowan is on the bench while Heath and Epps share the court. |
|
|
|
Post by paranoia2part2 on Jul 11, 2023 15:42:59 GMT -5
I consider Bristol a polished player. When a polished player goes off in Kenner it means something. When a volume shooting downhill beast goes off in Kenner it doesn’t mean as much.
|
|
hoyainspirit
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
Posts: 8,393 
|
Post by hoyainspirit on Jul 18, 2023 13:06:26 GMT -5
IMO, in basketball like Kenner, I think it's easier to tell who will not be a player than it is to tell who will shine in more organized, structured ball in season.
|
|
|
|
Post by trillesthoya on Jul 18, 2023 13:18:01 GMT -5
IMO, in basketball like Kenner, I think it's easier to tell who will not be a player than it is to tell who will shine in more organized, structured ball in season. Kenner gives you a good idea for who will be rotation players, but doesn’t say much about what they will do from there. A guy averaging 20 ppg in Kenner will likely find their way into the rotation one way or another. It’s a bit harder to judge with bigs though - guys like Ezewiro can thrive in the Kenner environment where they’re typically the biggest body on the court and don’t need structure, but in season they end up facing equally athletic/large big men and they actually have to play within a system. Someone like Bristol should play real minutes this season as there are minutes available and we could use his length and (in theory) shooting. But that doesn’t mean he will be a star just because he’s the best player on the court for us this summer, as his game might be one that thrives in the Kenner environment versus in a college game. |
|
MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,426
|
Post by MCIGuy on Jul 19, 2023 8:41:46 GMT -5
Some of this is drifting off into Captain Obvious territory. I think we all recognize that a person doing very good things in a summer league does not necessarily translate what the player will do in a regular season. The player will still have to prove himself. What we as fans are hoping to read/hear about at least though are signs of ability, skill, development and improvement. From there we let our imaginations run.
That said there is an absurdity in the no-win scenario that summer league holds for anyone who participates. If one plays badly in the Kenner League it means EVERYTHING. This player is dismissed summarily as someone who can not help the team during the upcoming season whatsoever. If one plays great in the Kenner League it means NOTHING. This player hasn’t proven he can be any good for the team during the upcoming season. People need to be suspicious of him until he faces off against “real” high level competition.
Of course that latter attitude leads to brushing off, at least temporarily, of any accomplishments that occur during the summer. It suggests that ANYONE can fill it up on a regular basis in such settings because the competition is viewed as being lesser. But isn’t there something to be admired by players who can perform great with a bunch of strangers (often changing by the week) without having practiced with them or being put into an organized structure that lends towards more efficient styles of play? Don’t they deserve props for often going up against older, former D1 guys who are tougher than the relative kids they will face off against during the real season? And how about the long examples of dudes who looked to be a level or more above the rest of the participants in KL and turned out to be a level or more above the rest of the participants in college basketball in the regular season that followed? Nearly 20 years ago Roy Hibbert came out of nowhere to put up some big time numbers in the KL the summer leading to his sophomore season. It surprised a lot of people who were not expecting a jump like that from him so soon if ever. Turns out that showing was no fluke because it was Hibbert’s improved play that allowed the Hoyas, led by Jeff Green, to get over the hump and become an NCAA tourney team. In other words what I am saying is sometimes much improve play in the KL portends to a better individual regular season for that same player. It happens.
Last of all someone needs to explain to me what is even the point of people even posting the results of KL games or doing writeups if folks are going to be skeptical about anything that comes across as positive developments. Since none of it is taken at face value maybe we should pretend the games aren’t even happening.
|
|
sweetness
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 834
|
Post by sweetness on Jul 19, 2023 8:54:50 GMT -5
Kenner stats in and of themselves don't mean much....and I think almost everyone recognizes that. But if you watch in person and know what to look for, Kenner can be quite revealing. More specifically this takes into account a guy's physical development and overall physicality, and the types of shots they're taking and making, particularly relative to who they're going against. Also can pick up intangibles relating to guys' leadership, confidence, how hard they play, etc.
Again all seems obvious...but I agree that people who say Kenner reveals next to nothing are off base.
Relatedly, thanks to everyone who is doing Kenner write-ups!
|
|
|
|
Post by daymondmyles on Jul 19, 2023 14:28:42 GMT -5
I think Heath starts as he is your most proven scorer and possibly your best deep threat. Heath would be the 2 most likely so I see Bristol's competition being more Styles which Bristol has shown more at least in his Freshman year albeit against lesser competition. It will be interesting to see how he uses his pieces but I do think Bristol if he plays like he did at Howard probably gets some good minutes regardless if it is starting or off the bench. Hopefully last year didn't set him back too far and now with good coaching he will live up to his potential. He has the physical tools to make an impact. Heath is not starting over Epps imo. Cooley inherited Heath, he brought in Epps who has much more eligibility left. There may be a future for him beyond this upcoming season. So the only way Heath starts is if both him and Epps are in the backcourt. I see Heath getting at least 25 minutes a game even if he is not in the starting lineup. I see Rowan as a starter because he is the best pure pg on the team. There will be plenty of times in which Rowan is on the bench while Heath and Epps share the court. Huh? Heath is our most proven player by a mile. He’s absolutely starting unless injured. And yes he’d start next to Epps. The others would have to really win battles in practice to make it otherwise. |
|
MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,426
|
Post by MCIGuy on Jul 20, 2023 1:10:24 GMT -5
Heath was most proven by a mile last year and yet still didn't start.
Heath and Epps are combo guards in the bodies of smallish point guards. They can technically play some point for you but neither appears to have the upside of running a team and making an offense hum the way I think Rowan is close to doing. Rowan is also the tallest of the bunch too. And no I don't think all three of them will be in the starting lineup either.
|
|
TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,451
|
Post by TC on Jul 20, 2023 7:50:47 GMT -5
Huh? Heath is our most proven player by a mile. He’s absolutely starting unless injured. And yes he’d start next to Epps. The others would have to really win battles in practice to make it otherwise. I bet MCIGuy is right and you're looking at a Brumbaugh/Epps/Styles or Brumbaugh/Epps/Bristol starting 1-2-3. Arguing Heath has seniority is pretty silly in this situation - it's a developmental year and the coach that recruited him is gone. Heath has experience and probably will be leaned on a bit in crunch time but the idea he's a lock on a starting job is silly. |
|
conshyhoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 790
|
Post by conshyhoya on Jul 20, 2023 8:28:12 GMT -5
Huh? Heath is our most proven player by a mile. He’s absolutely starting unless injured. And yes he’d start next to Epps. The others would have to really win battles in practice to make it otherwise. I bet MCIGuy is right and you're looking at a Brumbaugh/Epps/Styles or Brumbaugh/Epps/Bristol starting 1-2-3. Arguing Heath has seniority is pretty silly in this situation - it's a developmental year and the coach that recruited him is gone. Heath has experience and probably will be leaned on a bit in crunch time but the idea he's a lock on a starting job is silly. I still think Heath is starting at least on opening day. He is your only proven deep threat. On over 500 3s he is 38% and never had a bad year from deep. Your only other proven threat is Ish and he definitely is a step down in those regards and on his 2 years where he put up more than 100 3s he was only 33%. His other two which were under 100 ,only by a few shots though, were way higher. I would think that Cooley would want someone that can keep a defense honest on the floor if he wants a shot at post season.. Epps and Styles definitely haven't shown to be that person. Maybe Rowan or one of the freshman will be that guy or Bristol returns to his freshman form. If someone steps up in the scrimmages and practices then I can see Heath maybe coming off the bench since he doesn't really add anything else except experience. He is ok with the ball but rather see Rowan take that spot. If things go as expected and we don't have a chance at post season then I can see him having a lesser role. If he's not starting, I would think he will get starter minutes just for his shooting and experience alone. |
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,904
|
Post by EtomicB on Jul 20, 2023 9:20:45 GMT -5
Huh? Heath is our most proven player by a mile. He’s absolutely starting unless injured. And yes he’d start next to Epps. The others would have to really win battles in practice to make it otherwise. I bet MCIGuy is right and you're looking at a Brumbaugh/Epps/Styles or Brumbaugh/Epps/Bristol starting 1-2-3. Arguing Heath has seniority is pretty silly in this situation - it's a developmental year and the coach that recruited him is gone. Heath has experience and probably will be leaned on a bit in crunch time but the idea he's a lock on a starting job is silly. My guess would be that Heath performs better than most, if not all the new guards in practice.. It'll be difficult for the staff to establish a practice matters mentality if the better players are sitting because the coaches that recruited them are gone |
|
prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,297
|
Post by prhoya on Jul 20, 2023 9:39:52 GMT -5
Huh? Heath is our most proven player by a mile. He’s absolutely starting unless injured. And yes he’d start next to Epps. The others would have to really win battles in practice to make it otherwise. I bet MCIGuy is right and you're looking at a Brumbaugh/Epps/Styles or Brumbaugh/Epps/Bristol starting 1-2-3. Arguing Heath has seniority is pretty silly in this situation - it's a developmental year and the coach that recruited him is gone. Heath has experience and probably will be leaned on a bit in crunch time but the idea he's a lock on a starting job is silly. I would expect that all players need to show what they’ve got to the new coach and that no one is a lock, but Heath had good games vs. Cooley’s Providence and the other guard options have less experience or are unproven. Unless a better option arrives, I expect him to start the early games. |
|
jwp91
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,009
Member is Online
|
Post by jwp91 on Jul 20, 2023 9:47:56 GMT -5
Huh? Heath is our most proven player by a mile. He’s absolutely starting unless injured. And yes he’d start next to Epps. The others would have to really win battles in practice to make it otherwise. I bet MCIGuy is right and you're looking at a Brumbaugh/Epps/Styles or Brumbaugh/Epps/Bristol starting 1-2-3. Arguing Heath has seniority is pretty silly in this situation - it's a developmental year and the coach that recruited him is gone. Heath has experience and probably will be leaned on a bit in crunch time but the idea he's a lock on a starting job is silly. Hmmm.... Games Started at a major conference level Heath - 84 Brumbaugh - 0 Epps - 11 Styles - 0 I expect Heath to start. He is by far our most experienced guard. He has averaged double digits points all four of his collegiate years. He is a pretty damn good player. I hope Brumbaugh, Epps, and Styles have great seasons but thinking a player who has already started 4 years at a major conference level isn't an extremely strong candidate to start for one of the worst programs in college basketball is bit ridiculous. |
|
TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,451
|
Post by TC on Jul 20, 2023 9:51:52 GMT -5
It'll be difficult for the staff to establish a practice matters mentality if the better players are sitting because the coaches that recruited him are gone I don't think the better players will sit - Epps was better than Heath last year, as long as he's healthy he's probably better this year too. The only argument here being put forward is that Heath is experienced - if this is truly a practice battle / talent, Brumbaugh and Epps are going to beat him out. |
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,904
|
Post by EtomicB on Jul 20, 2023 10:08:28 GMT -5
It'll be difficult for the staff to establish a practice matters mentality if the better players are sitting because the coaches that recruited him are gone I don't think the better players will sit - Epps was better than Heath last year, as long as he's healthy he's probably better this year too. The only argument here being put forward is that Heath is experienced - if this is truly a practice battle / talent, Brumbaugh and Epps are going to beat him out. What are you basing your assertion that Epps was better last year on? If both Epps & Brumbaugh are better than a 15.5 pts per game player over a 100 game career in HM conferences then this will be a very exciting season... |
|
conshyhoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 790
|
Post by conshyhoya on Jul 20, 2023 10:23:25 GMT -5
I don't think the better players will sit - Epps was better than Heath last year, as long as he's healthy he's probably better this year too. The only argument here being put forward is that Heath is experienced - if this is truly a practice battle / talent, Brumbaugh and Epps are going to beat him out. What are you basing your assertion that Epps was better last year on? If both Epps & Brumbaugh are better than a 15.5 pts per game player over a 100 game career in HM conferences then this will be a very exciting season... Who is career 38% on over 500 shots from 3 at that. |
|
prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,297
|
Post by prhoya on Jul 20, 2023 10:26:47 GMT -5
What are you basing your assertion that Epps was better last year on? If both Epps & Brumbaugh are better than a 15.5 pts per game player over a 100 game career in HM conferences then this will be a very exciting season... Who is career 38% on over 500 shots from 3 at that. Heath: www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jay-heath-1.htmlLooking at those numbers, I’m amazed he was able to shoot 102 3s last year while playing with black holes Q, Spears and Murray. |
|
hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,366
Member is Online
|
Post by hoyaboya on Jul 20, 2023 11:15:56 GMT -5
Heath was certainly a member of the "my turn" offense that Ewing ran for his hired guns. I would hope and expect that Heath gets less playing time than Epps and Brumbaugh. Cooley has pretty much already waved the white flag on being competitive in the 2023-2024 season, so there's not much reason to play Heath ahead of two guys that will be here when we're good again. |
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,904
|
Post by EtomicB on Jul 20, 2023 12:03:17 GMT -5
Heath was certainly a member of the "my turn" offense that Ewing ran for his hired guns. I would hope and expect that Heath gets less playing time than Epps and Brumbaugh. Cooley has pretty much already waved the white flag on being competitive in the 2023-2024 season, so there's not much reason to play Heath ahead of two guys that will be here when we're good again. The staff should do it because PT always has to be earned especially early in the year |
|
