hoyaroc
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,324
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Post by hoyaroc on Mar 16, 2023 18:25:49 GMT -5
Is Bennett the rich man's JTIII? And people on here were mentioning him as just as elite as Pitino and Bill Self Some people believe the hype. 👀
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Buckets
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,656
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Post by Buckets on Mar 16, 2023 18:59:56 GMT -5
Sad part is Princeton’s now as successful as our NCAA record in the past ten seasons. Two appearances, one win. And a pretty spirited first round exit as opposed to getting BTFO like we did two years ago.
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hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,500
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Post by hoyaboya on Mar 16, 2023 21:53:18 GMT -5
Shrewsbury’s Nittany Lions looking good, he was great in his sideline interview - not sure why we have to hire Cooley over him (oh wait, it’s because the Thompsons like Cooley).
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Loyal Hoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 554
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Post by Loyal Hoya on Mar 16, 2023 23:34:56 GMT -5
Big Roydoing a good job on CBSSN!!
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 16, 2023 23:59:16 GMT -5
Wow. I feel like I am back in 2010 (still a HoyaTalk lurker), 2011 or 2013 after our upsets. People have hugely unrealistic expectations and assessments of coaches. I am not sure why I have to say this again, but the NCAA tournament is a single game elimination and there are upsets all the time. This isn't new, it's not novel or unique, and there certainly is not a big enough sample size for most (if not any) coaches to make grand conclusions based on their NCAA success. First, Tony Bennett won a championship just five years ago. Would we trade our last 5 years for: Championship, NCAA bid if no COVID, 4 seed (but lose in Round 1), no tournament, 4 seed lose in round 1? Of course. Winning a championship is so hard and makes such a difference to a program that I would pretty much take that under any circumstances. Second, I agree that there is SOME merit to the idea that slower, plodding styles can favor underdogs. Mostly because it limits the number of possessions, therefore increasing volatility. Add on the importance of three point shooting, and you can easily see where an upset can happen. But, I think this can be taken to an extreme, too. Villanova has always employed a slower more deliberate style and they had no problem under Jay Wright. Third, I simply don't buy that Tony Bennett's style cannot succeed. I know the ACC has had down years, but even over the last 4 seasons (excluding the championship year), they've gone 55-22, for a winning percentage of 71.4%. Bennett clearly wins a huge amount in the regular season. There's no logical reason why the tournament is so different. Lastly, he's gotten his team to the NCAA tournament 9/10 years (if you assume they would have made in in 2020). How many other coaches can say that? That's an amazing run, plus it includes a championship and a Sweet 16. If this isn't good enough for you, I think your expectations are very warped. Did you even watch this game when you wrote this? It was a complete meltdown at the end. There was no way they should have lost this
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 17, 2023 0:00:28 GMT -5
Princeton no scholarships or grad players Not even sure if they have NIL players
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DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,608
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 17, 2023 6:06:44 GMT -5
Shrewsbury’s ceiling may be higher than some here give him credit for.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,608
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 17, 2023 6:13:51 GMT -5
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 17, 2023 6:22:53 GMT -5
Day 2: Time to Dance. Let’s go Pitino, Coach Cooley, Creighton.
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SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 18,399
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Post by SSHoya on Mar 17, 2023 6:39:13 GMT -5
Shrewsbury’s ceiling may be higher than some here give him credit for. Ha ha ha. Back in the 1970s, our Pep Band per diem was $7 a day in NYC for the ECAC Holiday Festival. . .
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hoyajmw
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,031
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Post by hoyajmw on Mar 17, 2023 7:41:06 GMT -5
Wow. I feel like I am back in 2010 (still a HoyaTalk lurker), 2011 or 2013 after our upsets. People have hugely unrealistic expectations and assessments of coaches. I am not sure why I have to say this again, but the NCAA tournament is a single game elimination and there are upsets all the time. This isn't new, it's not novel or unique, and there certainly is not a big enough sample size for most (if not any) coaches to make grand conclusions based on their NCAA success. First, Tony Bennett won a championship just five years ago. Would we trade our last 5 years for: Championship, NCAA bid if no COVID, 4 seed (but lose in Round 1), no tournament, 4 seed lose in round 1? Of course. Winning a championship is so hard and makes such a difference to a program that I would pretty much take that under any circumstances. Second, I agree that there is SOME merit to the idea that slower, plodding styles can favor underdogs. Mostly because it limits the number of possessions, therefore increasing volatility. Add on the importance of three point shooting, and you can easily see where an upset can happen. But, I think this can be taken to an extreme, too. Villanova has always employed a slower more deliberate style and they had no problem under Jay Wright. Third, I simply don't buy that Tony Bennett's style cannot succeed. I know the ACC has had down years, but even over the last 4 seasons (excluding the championship year), they've gone 55-22, for a winning percentage of 71.4%. Bennett clearly wins a huge amount in the regular season. There's no logical reason why the tournament is so different. Lastly, he's gotten his team to the NCAA tournament 9/10 years (if you assume they would have made in in 2020). How many other coaches can say that? That's an amazing run, plus it includes a championship and a Sweet 16. If this isn't good enough for you, I think your expectations are very warped. Did you even watch this game when you wrote this? It was a complete meltdown at the end. There was no way they should have lost this Not to mention UVA’s three firsts and a second (and a sixth) in the ACC regular season those years (and a first the year before). When the Hoyas would flame out year after year in the tourney I’d remind myself that it is the journey —the successes along the way — that made the team fun to follow. When those dried up due to III’s unwillingness to adjust or inability to “figure it out” (as he would always say he would), and the League and country had plainly figured HIM out (combined with a loss of a recruiting eye), that’s when I lost faith and the flame -outs weren’t even something to rue anymore — they simply didn’t exist because we weren’t even good enough to make the post season. Bennett took over an irrelevant school (from the not so immortal Dave Letaio) and, in the hardest to compete conference in the country (for a school not on Tobbacco Road), turned it into a perennial contender and won an NCAA title. Even Rick Pitino (who I like a lot as a coach) failed to make the FF far more than he made it. Anyone using Tony Bennett as an example of the kind of coach we DON’T want … And yes, I did watch yesterday’s game…
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,358
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Post by prhoya on Mar 17, 2023 7:49:48 GMT -5
Did you even watch this game when you wrote this? It was a complete meltdown at the end. There was no way they should have lost this Not to mention UVA’s three firsts and a second (and a sixth) in the AAC regular season those years (and a first the year before). When the Hoyas would flame out year after year in the tourney I’d remind myself that it is the journey —the successes along the way — that made the team fun to follow. When those dried up due to III’s unwillingness to adjust or inability to “figure it out” (as he would always say he would), and the League and country had plainly figured HIM out (combined with a loss of a recruiting eye), that’s when I lost faith and the flame -outs weren’t even something to rue anymore — they simply didn’t exist because we weren’t even good enough to make the post season. Bennett took over an irrelevant school (from the not so immortal Dave Letaio) and, in the hardest to compete conference in the country (for a school not on Tobbacco Road), turned it into a perennial contender and won an NCAA title. Even Rick Pitino (who I like a lot as a coach) failed to make the FF far more than he made it. Anyone using Tony Bennett as an example of the kind of coach we DON’T want … And yes, I did watch yesterday’s game… I would take Tony Bennett and UVa.’s last ten years over JT3/Ewing and GU’s last ten years. Is there any doubt? Anyone saying the contrary is a liar or likes losing in record-breaking fashion.
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TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,459
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Post by TC on Mar 17, 2023 8:38:34 GMT -5
That title is just ridiculous : "Virginia’s Upset Loss to Furman Further Proves 2019 National Title Was a Fluke"
55-22 in conference since you won a title is not a fluke. 2-39 since you win a title, maybe you can make that claim about it being a fluke.
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
Posts: 10,592
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Post by This Just In on Mar 17, 2023 8:49:02 GMT -5
Wow. I feel like I am back in 2010 (still a HoyaTalk lurker), 2011 or 2013 after our upsets. People have hugely unrealistic expectations and assessments of coaches. I am not sure why I have to say this again, but the NCAA tournament is a single game elimination and there are upsets all the time. This isn't new, it's not novel or unique, and there certainly is not a big enough sample size for most (if not any) coaches to make grand conclusions based on their NCAA success. First, Tony Bennett won a championship just five years ago. Would we trade our last 5 years for: Championship, NCAA bid if no COVID, 4 seed (but lose in Round 1), no tournament, 4 seed lose in round 1? Of course. Winning a championship is so hard and makes such a difference to a program that I would pretty much take that under any circumstances. Second, I agree that there is SOME merit to the idea that slower, plodding styles can favor underdogs. Mostly because it limits the number of possessions, therefore increasing volatility. Add on the importance of three point shooting, and you can easily see where an upset can happen. But, I think this can be taken to an extreme, too. Villanova has always employed a slower more deliberate style and they had no problem under Jay Wright. Third, I simply don't buy that Tony Bennett's style cannot succeed. I know the ACC has had down years, but even over the last 4 seasons (excluding the championship year), they've gone 55-22, for a winning percentage of 71.4%. Bennett clearly wins a huge amount in the regular season. There's no logical reason why the tournament is so different.Lastly, he's gotten his team to the NCAA tournament 9/10 years (if you assume they would have made in in 2020). How many other coaches can say that? That's an amazing run, plus it includes a championship and a Sweet 16. If this isn't good enough for you, I think your expectations are very warped. I know you are/were a big JTIII guy...those NCAA losses were unprecedented 1st ever coach and team to be a single seed and lose to double digit seeded team in consecutive tourney years-(posters were blowing it off then as kept saying he will get us back) And paved the way for the bottom to start falling out on the program. I give JTIII credit as he was good at game to game planning, it was when he had to make in game adjustments in the NCAAT when it showed his weakness. You keep saying the tournament is a crap shoot but if JTIII would have won these games then people would be saying and rightfully so how great of a coach he is. Here is a fact: 6 straight times since their Final Four appearance in 2007, the Hoyas exited the NCAA tournament in its first weekend due to an upset by a lower-seeded opponent. We had 3 McDonald All Americans and did not win a single NIT nor NCAA game.This is a trend, that there is a problem. Add to the fact that JTIII has never been a head coach again since leaving Georgetown I remember that reporter asked JTIII after that FGCU debacle why does this keep happening and he said "I don't know". Bennet is lucky, I remember there being a blown call or phantom call that went against Texas Tech or Auburn on the way to winning the National Championship that year. Can the slower pace when in the regular season, yes but the tournament is different as it constantly shows it allows teams to not only hang around but if they get a lead then now as the slower pace team you are out of your environment in a win or go home scenario. Also with the NCCAT coaches have time to prepare on a teams weaknesses. I don't think Bennett sees another Final 4 and probably will not see another Sweet 16 despite having the superior talent on the court. The 1st part of my post is like Back to the Future as me and you would always go back and forth on this stuff. I was giving another point of view, dont want to argue. You can have the last word on this and enjoy the tournament.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 17, 2023 9:41:56 GMT -5
Virginia lost yesterday in large part because one of its players made a boneheaded pass that was intercepted. I highly doubt that Bennett coaches his players to do that, it was a mistake. Now, you might argue that a 2 seed shouldn't be that close to a 15 seed to begin with, but the fact is that Virginia had the win in hand and blew it because of a stupid mistake.
I am not sure what the reference to 3 McDonald All Americans, but I assume you mean the 2010 team, which indeed did not win an NIT or NCAA game, though the 2012 team did win one game.
All I am saying is that if a coach wins tons of games in the regular season like Bennett, they are a good coach. There is nothing special about the NCAA tournament that causes these losses. Coach K lost to a 15, as well. Had the ball bounced a few different ways, John Thompson may have lost to Princeton, a 16 seed, in 1989. It happens.
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,362
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Post by calhoya on Mar 17, 2023 9:44:55 GMT -5
I think that rankings are more meaningless this year than most. Look at the number of teams that cycled in and out of the rankings this season.
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 17, 2023 9:47:25 GMT -5
Virginia lost yesterday in large part because one of its players made a boneheaded pass that was intercepted. I highly doubt that Bennett coaches his players to do that, it was a mistake. Now, you might argue that a 2 seed shouldn't be that close to a 15 seed to begin with, but the fact is that Virginia had the win in hand and blew it because of a stupid mistake. I am not sure what the reference to 3 McDonald All Americans, but I assume you mean the 2010 team, which indeed did not win an NIT or NCAA game, though the 2012 team did win one game. All I am saying is that if a coach wins tons of games in the regular season like Bennett, they are a good coach. There is nothing special about the NCAA tournament that causes these losses. Coach K lost to a 15, as well. Had the ball bounced a few different ways, John Thompson may have lost to Princeton, a 16 seed, in 1989. It happens. You do realize Bennett had a time out there. And had his 5-10 pg inbounding the ball. Real talk. If it was Ewing you would have been all over him for the end of game meltdown and throwing players under the bus.
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 17, 2023 9:51:22 GMT -5
I think that rankings are more meaningless this year than most. Look at the number of teams that cycled in and out of the rankings this season. The big ten and to lesser extent ACC rankings are overinflated. They basically get highly ranked before playing any games and then the ranking stays in conference as long as they don’t lose every OCC game. Then based off these unearned ranking they are able to get a boatload of teams in the tournament. This has been happening the last couple years. That’s why you see them get upset in the tournament or even NIT where Rutgers lost to Hofstra.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 17, 2023 11:23:52 GMT -5
Virginia lost yesterday in large part because one of its players made a boneheaded pass that was intercepted. I highly doubt that Bennett coaches his players to do that, it was a mistake. Now, you might argue that a 2 seed shouldn't be that close to a 15 seed to begin with, but the fact is that Virginia had the win in hand and blew it because of a stupid mistake. I am not sure what the reference to 3 McDonald All Americans, but I assume you mean the 2010 team, which indeed did not win an NIT or NCAA game, though the 2012 team did win one game. All I am saying is that if a coach wins tons of games in the regular season like Bennett, they are a good coach. There is nothing special about the NCAA tournament that causes these losses. Coach K lost to a 15, as well. Had the ball bounced a few different ways, John Thompson may have lost to Princeton, a 16 seed, in 1989. It happens. You do realize Bennett had a time out there. And had his 5-10 pg inbounding the ball. Real talk. If it was Ewing you would have been all over him for the end of game meltdown and throwing players under the bus. To be clear, I am not saying Bennett has no culpability or absolving him. His failure to call the timeout was a big mistake (as was the player's failure to do it). I am just saying that the player could have done a bunch of different things there that would have likely yielded a different result. I'm sure the player feels horrible, and I feel sorry for the guy as that moment will likely haunt him for a long time. I did not see Bennett's post game comments, so I have no idea what he said. I do not think it is appropriate for a coach to blame a player in that situation, it's just a bad look (for what it's worth, I don't think coaches generally should call out players in any circumstance publicly, it's just not good practice). So if Bennett did that (or Ewing, or anybody else), I would definitely criticize them. I am sure Virginia made mistakes during the game too that affected the score that could have avoided that outcome, too. Bennett's job is to prepare his team, and the team failed, so he definitely should be "blamed" for the loss to the extent there is a need to place blame. My bigger point is that people place way too much emphasis on single games in the NCAA tournament to the exclusion of everything else. As fans, we follow a team for 5-6 months, but then come March everyone forgets about most of what happened in that period and focuses only on tournament results. I mean, I get it - everyone wants to win in the tournament, so it's a much bigger deal. To me, the regular season says a lot more about a coach's success/failure than the NCAA tournament. Bennett basically has gotten Virginia to the tournament 9/10 seasons. If people wanted to try to find a similar coach who could get there 9/10 times AND have better success (including more than one championship), good luck to them in finding that coach.
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
Posts: 10,592
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Post by This Just In on Mar 17, 2023 12:21:34 GMT -5
Virginia lost yesterday in large part because one of its players made a boneheaded pass that was intercepted. I highly doubt that Bennett coaches his players to do that, it was a mistake. Now, you might argue that a 2 seed shouldn't be that close to a 15 seed to begin with, but the fact is that Virginia had the win in hand and blew it because of a stupid mistake. I am not sure what the reference to 3 McDonald All Americans, but I assume you mean the 2010 team, which indeed did not win an NIT or NCAA game, though the 2012 team did win one game. All I am saying is that if a coach wins tons of games in the regular season like Bennett, they are a good coach. There is nothing special about the NCAA tournament that causes these losses. Coach K lost to a 15, as well. Had the ball bounced a few different ways, John Thompson may have lost to Princeton, a 16 seed, in 1989. It happens. I was referring that in 2009 the team went to the NIT and lost to Baylor, 1st Rd And in 2010 the team went to the NCCA's and lost to Ohio in the 1st rd Both seasons I believe we had the superior roster in with Wright, Freeman, and Monroe I think either Wright or Freeman was coming back from a wrist injury heading into that that season heading into the post season. I get your point though.
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