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Post by professorhoya on Feb 7, 2023 16:51:18 GMT -5
I know there is some argument about if Cooley is a good "Coach", but I think the one thing that would be hard to argue, is that he has built a culture and environment at Providence that is impressive. He gets kids to commit to go to Providence to play for him, and for the most part, those kids stay loyal to the program and improve while there. They always play hard and are always competitive. There are some games I might question some of his in game tactics, but you can do that for pretty much every coach. You would have to believe it would be easier for him to attract top end talent at Georgetown, than it is for him to get those kids to Providence. Give him higher level players and add that culture and development skills he has shown and you should have a good long term basketball program. I have no idea if he would leave Providence at this point, but I think you need to at least check and see if he has an interest. We can probably assume that Hoyaboya will smash Cooley on a daily basis for the next five years if Cooley comes here.
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Post by professorhoya on Feb 7, 2023 17:10:50 GMT -5
I agree that Cooley is a great coach but can we stop with the narrative that he took a team with 5 new starters and turned them into a winner. As if he was working with scraps. Hopkins (Kentucky 4*), Locke (Florida 4*), and Carter (USCe 4*) were all very talented players that could have gone to most schools.... They could have. And they chose to go to Providence f—ing College to play for Ed Cooley. Imagine what he could do if he were selling recruits on GU and DC. Cooley is unlikely to come do to his connection to John Thompson and also coaches almost never take another job in the same conference.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 7, 2023 17:12:21 GMT -5
This is behind a paywall, but here's some of it:
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TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,459
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Post by TC on Feb 7, 2023 17:16:02 GMT -5
Cooley is unlikely to come do to his connection to John Thompson and also coaches almost never take another job in the same conference. Counterpoint : Cooley is MORE likely to come due to his connection to John Thompson.
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daveg023
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,352
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Post by daveg023 on Feb 7, 2023 17:18:01 GMT -5
Cooley is unlikely to come do to his connection to John Thompson and also coaches almost never take another job in the same conference. Counterpoint : Cooley is MORE likely to come due to his connection to John Thompson. Cooley or Pitino are both <5% shots in my opinion. I think the fanbase needs to prepare themselves for someone else. These are pipe dreams.
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SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 18,395
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Post by SSHoya on Feb 7, 2023 17:22:06 GMT -5
Counterpoint : Cooley is MORE likely to come due to his connection to John Thompson. Cooley or Pitino are both <5% shots in my opinion. I think the fanbase needs to prepare themselves for someone else. These are pipe dreams. If it's a James Jones or someone similar and I give up my season tix after 42 years . . . 😒
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miracles87
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,150
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Post by miracles87 on Feb 7, 2023 17:50:08 GMT -5
Keep scrapping on D, limit turnovers, hit free throws. Drive and dish, take those open Js...box out!!
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Post by professorhoya on Feb 7, 2023 18:33:28 GMT -5
We had much higher expectations for the program when III was let go which, in the end, he failed to meet. Now, because III's replacement is far worse than he was, expectations are much lower. It is unrealistic to think it will be quick and easy to return to prominence, so while I would not turn away Pitino if there is interest, I would prefer hiring an up and comer who slowly, but steadily, rebuilds the program. But we have to start now. Perhaps it is my impatience with the last few years showing, but I do not want to do anything slowly, but steadily. I don't want a 4 or 5 year rebuild. I want a quick turnaround, which has arguably become easier with the transfer portal, and I think a good quality coach could get a bunch of guys off the portal that could get us playing much better, especially if the new coach retains the better pieces we currently have. To be clear, our current team while not fantastic is not nearly as bad as our record would indicate; we are the victim of awful coaching that makes our team less than the sum of its parts. I truly think a good high quality coach could have the team competitive and competitive for an NCAA bid in 2-3 seasons. So, that's what I want. I am confident Pitino could do that. Cooley, too, probably. But, we need to hire an experienced coach who has essentially masterminded a turnaround before. This is basically Pitino, Cooley, the reach candidates who are unlikely to take our job because they have better ones already/or are retired, or the handful of mid-major names often thrown around here that are intriguing but still carry a fairly substantial amount of risk (McAsland, Kelsey, etc.). One more note. Oftentimes, people point to a benefit of hiring an "up and comer" versus someone like Pitino because they'd stick around longer. But, that's not necessarily true. If an up and comer comes to Georgetown and has quick success (which would be fantastic, obviously), there's a fair chance that coach gets poached by a blue blood type program. So, no matter who we hire, there is really no guarantee that person will be around for more than 5 years. So, we just need to hire the best person and let the chips fall where they may. I’ve discussed this for years and you seem to have finally caught on but once the Thompsons (and now Ewing) have been exterminated and erased by you people, this likely becomes a stepping stone school. Butler is the best case scenario Stepping Stone school where coaches leave with any success but they actually have had Barry Collier orchestrating the Butler Way for the last 30 years.
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Post by professorhoya on Feb 7, 2023 18:44:04 GMT -5
Cooley or Pitino are both <5% shots in my opinion. I think the fanbase needs to prepare themselves for someone else. These are pipe dreams. If it's a James Jones or someone similar and I give up my season tix after 42 years . . . 😒 The best predictor of Success (though still not a guarantee, see Andy Endield at uSc) for a young, unknown coach is a successful run in the NCAA tournament, Shaheen Holloway, Calipari at UMASS, Pitino at Providence, Bill Self (Tulsa/Illinois), Shaka smart VCU, Brad Stevens Butler, Izzy at MsU. Other than that it’s a crap shoot. Lineage, school etc all out the window. Matt Doherty unc fail. Jon Scheyer crashing at Dook. Mediocre Kyle Neptune flopping at Nova. Coach K has a ton of guys coaching but they are all mediocre. The guy who actually may have the most elite coaches is Bobby Knight who has Coach K and Chris Beard under him. Jury still out on Mike Woodson but iU finally seems to be headed in the right direction.
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CTHoya08
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Bring back Izzo!
Posts: 2,879
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Post by CTHoya08 on Feb 7, 2023 18:51:53 GMT -5
If it's a James Jones or someone similar and I give up my season tix after 42 years . . . 😒 The best predictor of Success (though still not a guarantee, see Andy Endield at uSc) for a young, unknown coach is a successful run in the NCAA tournament, Shaheen Holloway, Calipari at UMASS, Pitino at Providence, Bill Self (Tulsa/Illinois), Shaka smart VCU, Brad Stevens Butler, Izzy at MsU. Other than that it’s a crap shoot. Lineage, school etc all out the window. Matt Doherty unc fail. Jon Scheyer crashing at Dook. Mediocre Kyle Neptune flopping at Nova. Coach K has a ton of guys coaching but they are all mediocre. The guy who actually may have the most elite coaches is Bobby Knight who has Coach K and Chris Beard under him. Jury still out on Mike Woodson but iU finally seems to be headed in the right direction. Do you have actual data to back this up? You mentioned some guys who went on a run and had success in a bigger job. What about all of the guys who got hired after making a run and failed? I suspect they are far, far more numerous.
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Post by professorhoya on Feb 7, 2023 19:16:14 GMT -5
The best predictor of Success (though still not a guarantee, see Andy Endield at uSc) for a young, unknown coach is a successful run in the NCAA tournament, Shaheen Holloway, Calipari at UMASS, Pitino at Providence, Bill Self (Tulsa/Illinois), Shaka smart VCU, Brad Stevens Butler, Izzy at MsU. Other than that it’s a crap shoot. Lineage, school etc all out the window. Matt Doherty unc fail. Jon Scheyer crashing at Dook. Mediocre Kyle Neptune flopping at Nova. Coach K has a ton of guys coaching but they are all mediocre. The guy who actually may have the most elite coaches is Bobby Knight who has Coach K and Chris Beard under him. Jury still out on Mike Woodson but iU finally seems to be headed in the right direction. Do you have actual data to back this up? You mentioned some guys who went on a run and had success in a bigger job. What about all of the guys who got hired after making a run and failed? I suspect they are far, far more numerous. From observation the success rate is high when an unknown, young coach at a small school or mid major goes on a deep run in the tourney (elite 8 or higher) If it’s someone like Kevin Ollie or potentially Hubert Davis who are doing it at a blue blood or elite level program and inherited their guys from the previous legend then there’s still a good chance they are mediocre. So really as a distinguishing factor the success of the unknown coach has to be at a small school or mid major. Those guys will be much more successful than a mediocre coach from a small school who hasn’t made a significant NCAA tournament run. Feel free to search the internet for data.
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bigskyhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,095
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Post by bigskyhoya on Feb 7, 2023 19:33:32 GMT -5
Perhaps it is my impatience with the last few years showing, but I do not want to do anything slowly, but steadily. I don't want a 4 or 5 year rebuild. I want a quick turnaround, which has arguably become easier with the transfer portal, and I think a good quality coach could get a bunch of guys off the portal that could get us playing much better, especially if the new coach retains the better pieces we currently have. To be clear, our current team while not fantastic is not nearly as bad as our record would indicate; we are the victim of awful coaching that makes our team less than the sum of its parts. I truly think a good high quality coach could have the team competitive and competitive for an NCAA bid in 2-3 seasons. So, that's what I want. I am confident Pitino could do that. Cooley, too, probably. But, we need to hire an experienced coach who has essentially masterminded a turnaround before. This is basically Pitino, Cooley, the reach candidates who are unlikely to take our job because they have better ones already/or are retired, or the handful of mid-major names often thrown around here that are intriguing but still carry a fairly substantial amount of risk (McAsland, Kelsey, etc.). One more note. Oftentimes, people point to a benefit of hiring an "up and comer" versus someone like Pitino because they'd stick around longer. But, that's not necessarily true. If an up and comer comes to Georgetown and has quick success (which would be fantastic, obviously), there's a fair chance that coach gets poached by a blue blood type program. So, no matter who we hire, there is really no guarantee that person will be around for more than 5 years. So, we just need to hire the best person and let the chips fall where they may. I’ve discussed this for years and you seem to have finally caught on but once the Thompsons (and now Ewing) have been exterminated and erased by you people, this likely becomes a stepping stone school. Butler is the best case scenario Stepping Stone school where coaches leave with any success but they actually have had Barry Collier orchestrating the Butler Way for the last 30 years. Interesting post. Your boy Miracles says we have no power to effect change and we are just p.... up a rope and you say we have the power to exterminate the Thompsons. I hope you're right. Even if your "nightmare" scenario comes true, how much worse could we be than we are now?
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hoya9797
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,207
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Post by hoya9797 on Feb 7, 2023 20:46:02 GMT -5
The best predictor of Success (though still not a guarantee, see Andy Endield at uSc) for a young, unknown coach is a successful run in the NCAA tournament, Shaheen Holloway, Calipari at UMASS, Pitino at Providence, Bill Self (Tulsa/Illinois), Shaka smart VCU, Brad Stevens Butler, Izzy at MsU. Other than that it’s a crap shoot. Lineage, school etc all out the window. Matt Doherty unc fail. Jon Scheyer crashing at Dook. Mediocre Kyle Neptune flopping at Nova. Coach K has a ton of guys coaching but they are all mediocre. The guy who actually may have the most elite coaches is Bobby Knight who has Coach K and Chris Beard under him. Jury still out on Mike Woodson but iU finally seems to be headed in the right direction. Do you have actual data to back this up? Of course not.
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hoyaguy
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,861
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Post by hoyaguy on Feb 7, 2023 21:00:01 GMT -5
I’ve discussed this for years and you seem to have finally caught on but once the Thompsons (and now Ewing) have been exterminated and erased by you people, this likely becomes a stepping stone school. Butler is the best case scenario Stepping Stone school where coaches leave with any success but they actually have had Barry Collier orchestrating the Butler Way for the last 30 years. Interesting post. Your boy Miracles says we have no power to effect change and we are just p.... up a rope and you say we have the power to exterminate the Thompsons. I hope you're right. Even if your "nightmare" scenario comes true, how much worse could we be than we are now? Correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like he would rather have the Thompsons involved and being a laughing stock than being a “stepping stone”. I doubt it happens but if pitino is hired and finishes his career here then that is the best solution to possibly counteract any perception of being a stepping stone. That would mean an all time great coach fixed the program and thought it was worth it to show up after 1 BE win in two seasons to try to make it a powerhouse again. And if he sets up a successor then that person would also be unlikely to leave especially with salaries we can offer. All that being said, the idea that Ewing or Ronny’s presence is what’s keeping us from being a joke/stepping stone is so laughable I would think he’s trolling. It’s not exterminating anyone by firing a coach and an old coach’s son who are terrible at their jobs. It’s called moving on and you can still respect the past I mean the name is on the athletics center, the court, and has a statue, like seriously what more could you want? Like I am genuinely asking if someone Thompson or Thompson-adjacent always needs to be employed at the program?
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,358
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Post by prhoya on Feb 7, 2023 21:00:49 GMT -5
The best predictor of Success (though still not a guarantee, see Andy Endield at uSc) for a young, unknown coach is a successful run in the NCAA tournament, Shaheen Holloway, Calipari at UMASS, Pitino at Providence, Bill Self (Tulsa/Illinois), Shaka smart VCU, Brad Stevens Butler, Izzy at MsU. Other than that it’s a crap shoot. Lineage, school etc all out the window. Matt Doherty unc fail. Jon Scheyer crashing at Dook. Mediocre Kyle Neptune flopping at Nova. Scheyer? Neptune? That wasn’t your bar for first-year Patrick Ewing. You’ve given him a pass for five years and are still defending him in the historic, record-breaking worst season of Hoya basketball. Why not give a 5-year pass to Scheyer and Neptune?
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kghoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,997
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Post by kghoya on Feb 7, 2023 21:18:36 GMT -5
Perhaps it is my impatience with the last few years showing, but I do not want to do anything slowly, but steadily. I don't want a 4 or 5 year rebuild. I want a quick turnaround, which has arguably become easier with the transfer portal, and I think a good quality coach could get a bunch of guys off the portal that could get us playing much better, especially if the new coach retains the better pieces we currently have. To be clear, our current team while not fantastic is not nearly as bad as our record would indicate; we are the victim of awful coaching that makes our team less than the sum of its parts. I truly think a good high quality coach could have the team competitive and competitive for an NCAA bid in 2-3 seasons. So, that's what I want. I am confident Pitino could do that. Cooley, too, probably. But, we need to hire an experienced coach who has essentially masterminded a turnaround before. This is basically Pitino, Cooley, the reach candidates who are unlikely to take our job because they have better ones already/or are retired, or the handful of mid-major names often thrown around here that are intriguing but still carry a fairly substantial amount of risk (McAsland, Kelsey, etc.). One more note. Oftentimes, people point to a benefit of hiring an "up and comer" versus someone like Pitino because they'd stick around longer. But, that's not necessarily true. If an up and comer comes to Georgetown and has quick success (which would be fantastic, obviously), there's a fair chance that coach gets poached by a blue blood type program. So, no matter who we hire, there is really no guarantee that person will be around for more than 5 years. So, we just need to hire the best person and let the chips fall where they may. I’ve discussed this for years and you seem to have finally caught on but once the Thompsons (and now Ewing) have been exterminated and erased by you people, this likely becomes a stepping stone school. Butler is the best case scenario Stepping Stone school where coaches leave with any success but they actually have had Barry Collier orchestrating the Butler Way for the last 30 years. Pretty much every school is a stepping stone job. Kansas lost a coach to UNC. If Ewing had been able to actually win at an impressive rate and the NBA came calling, he would have left. Good athletic departments always have and periodically update a list of candidates for rainy days. Hell Georgetown might be in better shape if Thompson had left when Oklahoma and the NBA came calling. Instead he amassed far more power than he ever should have received and the result is that we are stuck in this ditch for what seems like forever bc the president is scared of a ghost.
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hoyajmw
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,031
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Post by hoyajmw on Feb 7, 2023 22:21:10 GMT -5
14.5 point spread on the game, with an o/u of 147.5.
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Post by professorhoya on Feb 8, 2023 9:07:13 GMT -5
I’ve discussed this for years and you seem to have finally caught on but once the Thompsons (and now Ewing) have been exterminated and erased by you people, this likely becomes a stepping stone school. Butler is the best case scenario Stepping Stone school where coaches leave with any success but they actually have had Barry Collier orchestrating the Butler Way for the last 30 years. Pretty much every school is a stepping stone job. Kansas lost a coach to UNC. If Ewing had been able to actually win at an impressive rate and the NBA came calling, he would have left. Good athletic departments always have and periodically update a list of candidates for rainy days. Hell Georgetown might be in better shape if Thompson had left when Oklahoma and the NBA came calling. Instead he amassed far more power than he ever should have received and the result is that we are stuck in this ditch for what seems like forever bc the president is scared of a ghost. I would say that Roy Williams leaving Kansas was just the UNC clause that every UNC Coach has to have the option to return to their alma mater should they be asked to coach at UNC. Other than that Kansas, UNC, Kentucky (thought chatter Calipari may go to Texas) are final destination schools and not stepping stone schools.
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Post by professorhoya on Feb 8, 2023 9:15:54 GMT -5
The best predictor of Success (though still not a guarantee, see Andy Endield at uSc) for a young, unknown coach is a successful run in the NCAA tournament, Shaheen Holloway, Calipari at UMASS, Pitino at Providence, Bill Self (Tulsa/Illinois), Shaka smart VCU, Brad Stevens Butler, Izzy at MsU. Other than that it’s a crap shoot. Lineage, school etc all out the window. Matt Doherty unc fail. Jon Scheyer crashing at Dook. Mediocre Kyle Neptune flopping at Nova. Scheyer? Neptune? That wasn’t your bar for first-year Patrick Ewing. You’ve given him a pass for five years and are still defending him in the historic, record-breaking worst season of Hoya basketball. Why not give a 5-year pass to Scheyer and Neptune? Neptune ha destroyed an elite program in six months. We can go back To the archives and where you said that Villanova would not miss a beat with Neptune, that Villanova is a blue blood, that Jay Wright is still helping out, that Chris Arcidiacano is a good point guard, that Neptune is doing a great job and they will make the tourney. All which were not true. You’ve become the biggest Villanova and Kyle Neptune apologist which is weird because over on the Villanova board Villanova fans are calling for Neptunes head and calling this catastrophe a critical moment in Villanova’s program. Nobody over there is defending Neptune and the mess he has made. Hoyaboya and I told you that Neptune was mediocre. You should just pull back on the Villanova support because Kyle Neptune is a losing battle.
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SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 18,395
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Post by SSHoya on Feb 8, 2023 9:59:54 GMT -5
Providence - 13.5; O/U 147.5
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