April 2,1984: The Decline of Georgetown Basketball

[the_way]

...and after 12 years as coach, John Thompson had taken a tiny Jesuit school to the national championship.

"At times I've been obsessed by the national championship, I've awakened in the middle of the night in the summer saying 'national championship,' " he said. "Now I have one. I don't want 10 like John Wooden, I just wanted to get one."

Oh how unfortunately prophetic Big JT2's last words were! This issue has been thrown around a lot on this board, but since it is Summer time, why not make it a thread. For those of us younger generation Hoya fans who thought the delcine of the program started with Craig Esherick or the final year and a half of JT2's reign, or after Allen Iverson left, think again. The Fall of the Georgetown basketball program started on the night of April 2, 1984. It wasn't sudden. It was gradual. The "seed of decline" was planetd on that very night after we won the National Championsip. In the following years that seed's growth was gradually coming to fruition.

Yes, our aguably best team that year, even without Michael Graham, was the 1985 time. But look at the recruiting class of that. Outside of Perry McDonald (McDonald's all-american and I think still all-time leading scorer in New Orleans high school hsitory) was the only true star of that class. Highsmith was a solid role player, but not the type of player Georgetown could have had as the elite program of that time. Grady Mateen and Kevin Floyd? Well, you get the picture. And that came to bite us in the National Championship game, with a bum Reggie Williams' ankle.

Fast forward to 87, Reggie and the Miracles (ode to Smokey (Robinson) and the Miracles, where Smokey carried the group) . Again, with an elite program as Georgetown (# 1 in merchandising, etc.) it should have never been Reggie and the Miracles. Its should have been Pariliament-Funkadelic, like the 84 team (if you know what I mean) in terms of talent and depth on that roster.

From 85-88, here is my take on JT2. I think after all his obsession, study of the game,mastery of defensive stragey, coaching, mentoring, recruitng for 12 years, almost winning in 82, and then finally winnning in 84, JT2 needed to go on autopilot for a minute with regards to the program, psychologically. All the hard work before drained him. 85-88 was his rest period, sort of like a "re-up" to get his second wind. The Olympics were on the horizon and they landed the #1 recruit in the country in Alonzo Mourning to go along with some great recruits and surprising All-american star in Charles Smith. Here is where JT2 was back at it, putting his all into it again. Getting ready to win a gold, and another Championship with a loaded 89 team.


And... it all comes crashing down.

[the_way]

The Olympics is what did it to him. It scarred him. It is where JT2 just gave up. Cruise control forever in terms of recruiting, strategy, and coaching, the rest of his career. He was blamed a lot for not winning the gold in 88. And I think he said the "hell with it". The 89 team was already assembled and almost went to antoher final four. But the GU teams for the remaining years and the coach JT2 were never the same again. Gone was the swarming defense. That defense now had holes in it. There was always a man open when GU trapped now. Easier to break GU presses now. And the recruiting was just simply not up to par as it was before. And there no outside shooters. Our perimeter shooters were atrocious.

JT2's attitude toward recruiting changed. He never liked it but he went after recruits previously. Now,the Kenny Anderson and Grant Hills of the world who badly wanted to come to GU, only to be faced with a cold shoulder by JT2 decided to lend their talents elsewhere.

Yeah sure, we had some solid teams afterwards, the Iverson era. But an all-world talent like Iverson can mask a deficiently coached team by a guy in JT2 who was on cruise control in terms coaching.


I'll stop here. I'd like to hear people's thoughts of the changes that took place with the program the last 20 years or so.

[ColumbiaHeightsHoya]

Othella & Corliss Williamson were #1 & #2 in that class. Jahidi was a big recruit. I think after '89, he lost some of the sizzle but we were still in the hunt with big recruits but JT2's attitude towards recruiting definitely hurt. While the program was not where it once was, Esherick still delivered a series of head shots that took us to the canvas. He was just a bad hire.

A guy like JT III back then who had a new system with a burning desire to be good was what we needed and we didn't get it. We got more of the same and we didn't realize that we were a 2nd or 3rd tier team which was the worst part.

[Deleted]

Someone want to post the list of recruits that WANTED to come to G'Town but JT2 was too lazy to go recruit? I seem to remember pretty much every kid in NYC in the late 80's-early 90's being on that list...

[FromTheBeginning]

While there is no denying the gradual fall in the program after '85 - there were still some outstanding teams during the rest of the 80's and the early 90's. JT2 on cruise is another issue but the winning of a national championship is an extremely difficult thing to do, requiring a great team, some luck, etc. The one thing that none of our teams had after 1985 and that could never be replaced was Patrick. He is the reason there is a banner hanging in McDonough.

[SFHoya99]

Why are we talking about this? How about a lengthy discussion of the REBIRTH of Georgetown Basketball?

[prhoya]

Thanks, the_way, for taking me back to my college years ('87-'91) and rehashing some of the frustrations shared by the students at the time.

There definitely was a more laid back attitude from JT2. The best way to describe it is he was like an elder statesman or a senior judge. He was also involved in other non-basketball matters, the Olympics and there was also talk of him coaching in the NBA.

But, JTIII is young and hungry and the future looks bright for the program! Here's hoping that he wants to establish a dynasty...

[lichoya68]

look what may have changed was the thompson very good stlye of great d hustle.. hard play and physical ...and what happened is the three poiint shot... and a different game and maybe we didnot modify to the new world.. wed get beat byt he providence three game.. and maybe thats what happened... and other teams got tougher ...and physicaler if thats a word .. remeber how we got whipped by a not so tall or talented georgia team a few years back... and it was clear gu was no longer the strong and physical team ... no more ... maybe thats what changed.. maybe that .. go hoyas .. we are back ...watch us this year wereeeeeeeeeeeeeeee back ;D

[lichoya68]

p[s and there is only one patrick folks .. we saw a once in a lifetime and those teams had how many mcdonalds all americans .. regiie later and wingagate and martin and ewing when we get four of those future nbaers ... will e really back but will they stay now or go .. thats the questions .. how many nbaers were on the floor in the 1982 ncaa finals alot of them .. A HELL OF ALOT OF THEM.. ewing floyd martin jordan .. etc etc etc alot of them .. theyed be gone if we had em now.. so its a different world folks.. you might win now with very good players ..who stick for four years .. go hoyas lets begin again... but in a whole new world or ball game ..so to speak .

[prhoya]

Hey, lic, I started reading your posts, but got lost somewhere in the middle. What is that thing your drinking? Maybe if I have some, I could follow them better.

[MCIGuy]

Great, great thread, the_way. And I agree with much of what you wrote.

JT had a chance to have at least a Dule-like dominace (more realistic than a John Wooden UCLA one) and he let it slip away. I can't be too hard on him because he created something out of almost nothing and as a result indirectly created a great bball conference as well. Still he deserves criticism. Everytime JT is on his radio show and talks about Kobe Bryant these days he brings up the fact that Kobe tossed his opportunity away to win more championships, He disregards the three Kobe has won by saying why stop there? Good question, JT. Why stop there indeed? That's the question though he should have asked himself after Ewing left Gtown.

[the_way]

mciguy said:

Great, great thread, the_way. And I agree with much of what you wrote.

JT had a chance to have at least a Dule-like dominace (more realistic than a John Wooden UCLA one) and he let it slip away. I can't be too hard on him because he created something out of almost nothing and as a result indirectly created a great bball conference as well. Still he deserves criticism. Everytime JT is on his radio show and talks about Kobe Bryant these days he brings up the fact that Kobe tossed his opportunity away to win more championships, He disregards the three Kobe has won by saying why stop there? Good question, JT. Why stop there indeed? That's the question though he should have asked himself after Ewing left Gtown.

You make a great point about Duke dominance. Or even Jim Calhoun. One championship wasn't enough. Two ain't enough. But, JT2 was also in the redemption business in the 90s. Did you see "Beyond the Glory" with Alonzo Mourning. They talked about his time at GU, and how they really didn't have as much success on the basketball court in his later years with Mutumbo as everybody thought they would have. JT2 had said,"if we just focused on them as just basketball players, we would have won a lot more games, but they wouldn't have developed as men."

I think JT2's goals in the 90's wer developing men and just staying competitive enough on the basketball court to stay afloat as opposed to developing men AND developing National championship contenders. Esh took on this same attitude and coaching deficiency, but the problem was he was a worse coach than JT2 on cruise control and he couldn't land or keep recruits.

[lichoya68]

but again the game changed folks maybe quicker than we did

[the_way]

lichoya68 said:

but again the game changed folks maybe quicker than we did

Anything and everything changes, no matter what field or profession you are in. The point is, JT2 did enough to get by. Before April 2, 1984, he was obessed to win. Afterward, he was content just to stay afloat. Big difference in approach.

[NTAMM]

For everything said about the program and JT’s lack of enthusiasm for recruiting, my take on GU basketball is much different.

The program’s decline can be traced back to the summer of 1997. It was the suspension of Ed Sheffey that signaled the decline and JT’s loss of enthusiasm for coaching. But, this is something that we find only in hindsight. It was not apparent at the time.

It takes three to four years to put together a championship team. Whatever else can be said about JT, he was a great strategist as a coach. Let’s review what was happening to Georgetown at the time. After the previous two seasons, GU lost its best players due leaving early for the NBA draft: Allen Iverson and Victor Page. Undoubtedly, the early departures of Iverson and Page hurt. Yet, JT had made a number of moves that suggested that he was positioning his team to make a run at an NCAA championship. He is what he had:

Jahidi White at Center
Boubacar Aw at Forward

Let’s be clear, Jahidi was a bruiser. Nobody was going to mess with Jahidi. Boubacar was simply nasty. He always played as thought any minute he would explode and physically kick somebody’s butt. Boubacar is really the last “shut down” defender that played for the Hoyas. Neither of these players figured into the longer-term plans of an NCAA championship. But, they would be around to mentor the younger players and impart the tenacity and mental toughness expected by GU players. Yet, there were three players who would be part of the NCAA championship run:

Shernard Long at Shooting Guard
Ed Sheffey at Point Guard
Jameel Watkins at Center

Sheffey was a top 50 talent coming out of Oak Hill Academy. In high school, he was a scoring point guard. As a freshman, he deferred to Victor Page. Yet, he was talented and ready to blossom as a sophomore.

Shernard Long was a “late bloomer.” He was not considered a talent until late into his senior year of high school. In other words, he was a player who with development might become a major talent. In fact, he vindicated JT’s assessment of his potential talent. Long “blew up” his sophomore year.

Jameel Watkins was a developing talent -- tall, athletic and still maturing. He was not highly recruited. In fact, his high school teammate Shamel Jones was considered the prized recruit. But, considering the development of players like Aw, Mutombo, and Dia, under JT, there was the possibility that Watkins could develop into a good, if not a serviceable center. Coming to GU Watkins was more skilled than Mutombo, and Dia.

In other words, there was a core of good players – potentially very good players -- at Georgetown when the following players entered:

Anthony Perry. He clearly did not have the college career everybody expected. But, as a high school senior everybody (and I mean everybody) thought he would eventually lace up his shoes in the NBA. It may be hard to believe, but at the beginning of his high school senior year, he was rated ahead of talents like Baron Davis, Larry Hughes, and Ron Artest. He was considered to be a complete player – he did everything well, great defender and had great athleticism; good scorer. Entering his senior year Perry was considered the best guard in high school.

Kenny Brunner. A top 30 talent in high school. A great on-the-ball defender and a great court general. As a junior, Brunner was the starting point guard on the number one rated high school team in the nation. Brunner knew how to run an offense. I doubt that any GU booster will deny, in his short time at GU, that he displayed flashes that suggested he was on the way to becoming the best pure point guard in the post-Duren era.

Ruben Boumtje Boumtje. Another top 30 talent. JT got on Boumtje Boumtje before anybody knew about him. He was considered to be the best center in the DC area in 20 years. Ruben was considered to have the biggest upside of any of the incoming players. Given JT’s track record with skilled big men, Ruben was expected to become a major force. He was years ahead of Mutombo at similar points in their careers.

Tre Kilpatrick. Second team JUCO All-American. Kilpatrick was expected to be an immediate impact player at small forward.

GU was considered to have the 4th or 5th best recruiting class in the nation that year. If the squad developed as was expected, within two or three years GU would have an All-American caliber center and the best college backcourt in the nation (with Brunner/Sheffey and Perry starting and Long and Sheffey/Brunner off of the bench). In addition, there would be depth in the frontcourt.

In the summer of 1997, GU had one definite scholarship to offer for the following season. If all the other pieces stayed in place, GU had one pressing need: a quality forward. JT did something that was atypical for him. Among the rising high school seniors, JT only went after top ten talents – with no real backup plan if he missed on all of them. The key was that Stromile Swift – then rated among the three best high school seniors -- was considered a lock for GU. JT went after Al Harrington, Korelone Young, Tayshaun Prince, Corey Maggette, JaRon Rush, and Ray Young. He came close to landing Korelone Young. But, JT missed on all of them and came up with a relatively unknown Willie Taylor.

For the 1999 - 2000 season, here is what JT was probably expecting:

Starters:
Brunner – pg
Perry – sg
Boutmje Boutmje – c
Stromile Swift – f
(?) Long/Young -- f

Reserves:
E. Sheffey
S. Long
J. Watkins
R. Gibson
N. Burton

Had this scenario played out and the players developed as expected, GU would have had an NCAA champion-caliber team by the 1999-2000 season.

It didn’t happen. Sheffey had some minor legal problems and JT suspended him. Sheffey transferred.

Perry had one of his high school core courses rejected by the NCAA. He sat out his freshman year. I really think this effectively derailed Perry’s career. Over the summer of 1997, he had bonded with Brunner. I believe if Perry had played, Brunner would have stayed. I also believe that Perry’s skills would not have been “rusty” and he would have played with a point guard who knew when and how to feed him. Brunner would have been very positive for Perry’s game.

Swift did not sign with GU and JT missed on Young when he prematurely declared for the NBA.

Boumtje-Boumtje suffered a wrist injury that was slow in healing – a set back for his development.

Brunner left school – it is still unclear why he did so. But, he regretted his decision.

With Sheffey and Brunner gone, JT had to scramble to come up with a point guard. JT did an admirable job in coming up with the best available one: Kevin Braswell. He turned out to be better than I expected. However, he was not the defender nor court general that was Brunner. It also meant one less scholarship for going after the top quality forward he needed.

In addition, Kilpatrick struggled and was finally benched. The situation had deteriorated such that Burton, who should have been the 6th guard on a six guard team, was now starting at small forward. Watkins never stepped up and never displayed the tenacity and toughness that JT expected. At the start of the 1998-1999 season, Long was suspended, then transferred. Perry displayed flashes of brilliance. He might play brilliantly for the first half, then disappear. Or he would be silent the first half then play outstanding basketball in the second half. Perry was rusty and inconsistent, but he displayed flashes of brilliance that suggested he would develop into a major force in college basketball. And Boumtje-Boumtje was going to be a project – he never developed the tenacity, the toughness to be an elite post player. The reality was that the team barely beat a terrible Bethune Cookman College – the heroic efforts of Perry prevented a loss. After being the most feared program in the nation, it would be hard to tolerate a team that scared only low D-1 teams.

JT watched his three plan end up in a poor team by what were then GU standards. There was not much immediate help on the way. He knew that the incoming recruited class of Wesley Wilson, Courtland Freeman, Dmetrius Hunter, Victor Samnick, Lee Scruggs, and Jason Burns was not a particularly strong class. It provided depth but it did not provide the “franchise player or players” the program needed. To put that type of work into coaching and recruiting and come up with a poor team took its toll on JT.

[MCIGuy]

Great work, NTAMM. I remember all those events and trust us we discussed the instability and bad fortunes of the program when these events actually occurred on the old Hoya Talk board. But to me I don't see that as the point of the decline. The decline started before that, probably immediately after Reggie Williams left and there wasn't any star around to take his place. Of course this first decline was stalled when Mourning, Milton Bell and John Turner came aboard along with Deke. However after the graduation of Mark Tillmon and Dwayne Bryant is when the decline came back in force! Look at these names:

Joey Brown
Robert Churchwell
Lamont Morgan
Charles Harrison
Irvin Church
John Jacques
Derrick Patterson
Pascal Fleurry
dude from Yugoslovia whose name I've forgotten
Brian Kelly
Kevin Millen
Rhese Gibson
Lonnie Harrell
Don Reid (JT and GTown lucked out there)

Most of these guys were good people who worked hard. But with a few exceptions they were also the type of players who on a true contender were at best backups who would have been playing limited minutes. However for Gtown these guys were starters, four year starters in some cases! They played an important role on their respective Gtown teams even when it was clear to most they weren't all that good. They were far worse collectively than the cursed players that JT was bringing in during the late 90s.


The stuff that started happening in '97 was more of a result of a last ditch attempt (or a second to last considering JT would bring in Ronnie to recruit a couple years later) by JT to right his ship. But, with all due sympathy to some recent well known people in the current headlines, that's like a man who has wrecked his lungs by smoking non-stop for decades only to stop when he starts showing possible symptoms of cancer. Late fixes rarely work.

[JohnnyTwoTimes]

That is a good post by NTamm and he makes some points which I also always use when someone makes a blanket statement that "JT stopped recruiting in 1988." But that is what is frustrating about it: JT could still bring in quality (at least according to the people who evaluate preps) players, but too often in the 90's he chose not to. I think the decline was most evident right after the 1990 season. The '89-90 team is an afterthought in the minds of most GU fans, probably because it underachieved. Nonetheless, it had a core -- Mourning, Mutombo, Bryant and Tillmon -- that could compete with the best in the nation. Moreover, it had some quality (at least on paper) frosh - a tremendous HS scorer in David Edwards and a mcDonald's All-American in Michael Tate. Tate was a bust and Edwards butted heads with JT2, as well as possibly struggling in the classroom, and they both transferred out (as well as the others of that class - Stoudamire and the immortal Mike Sabol-- and Milton Bell, another HS AA). And they were replaced by the Brown/Chruchwell/Harrison/Morgan bunch. Now, I love Joey and Churchwell, who played their hearts out, but when it comes down to it, there aren't many that would disagree with MCI that in terms of talent level, these guys were not up to GU's previous standards -- and their recruitment was all the more galling when the likes of Kenny Anderson and Grant Hill could have been had. After that, JT2 still had some recruiting successes, at least as far as players with hype coming out of HS (O, Spencer, Nichols, Jahidi, AP), but that 1990 incoming class is where the step-back in terms of talent chrystalized for me.

MCI, Vladimir "Get the Bozack" Bosanac is the guy you were thinking of.

[MCIGuy]

Yes! Vladimir Bosanac!

And how could I forget Mike Sabol and Antoine Stoudamire?

[JohnnyTwoTimes]

The fact of the matter is this - if you replace the incoming freshman classes of 1989, 1990, and 1991 with players who were both closer to GU's previous talent standards (i.e. more talented than Charlie harrison, Chico Church et al) and who would give more than a year to the program (i.e. staying longer than a David Edwards), we might not be having this discussion right now. But those three consecutive classes without a talented yield had a huge ripple effect. A ripple effect that was felt for years and that even a supernova like Iverson could not overcome.

[NTAMM]

Yes Jx2, the years 1989-1991, were wastelands in terms of GU recruiting. It is baffling that GU was unable to recruit and maintain quality players to complement a talent like Mourning. Zo was so dominant his senior year that all GU needed was a quality perimeter player and team would be positioned to make a serious run at Big East and NCAA championships.

Yet, GU’s recruiting was able to bounce back. In 1992, it landed recruits that were considered the #1 and #4 best high school seniors – Othella Harrington and Duane Spence.

Consider the recruiting class of 1994: Allen Iverson, Jerome Williams, Jahidi White, Jerry Nicholas, Boubacar Aw; followed up with the class of 1995 that included Victor Page. Already on the team was Othella Harrington (and Don Reid for a year). I think we can say that JT brought in some serious talent those two years; talent to make for a serious run at an NCAA championship.

But, GU’s recruiting efforts were usually inconsistent. JT had enormous prestige and could (and did) bring in top recruits. So as long as he was engaged and enthusiastic, he could land top recruits. For example, there is a good probability that Tyson Chandler would have played a year or two (maybe even three or four) at GU, if JT had continued to coach. JT had that kind of prestige. (He also had a very positive relationship with Chandler’s high school basketball coach.)

There is a quote that goes something like this “Recruiting is like shaving. You must do it everyday.” The elite basketball talents have to be identified, scouted, and “groomed” early on. For example, I know of players who are rising high school freshmen, having never played a single minute of high school basketball. But, they are receiving letters from D-1 colleges and are reportedly being scouted by Big Ten Conference colleges. (I live in Ohio.) What generated the interest? Answer: assistant coaches either watched them play at a tournament or heard about their on-court prowess and scouted them. And made sure the players knew that they were being scouted by the school. A young man, when it was discovered that he had an interest, was immediately sent a letter from the ACC School of interest – after his freshman year in high school. How did that happen? A school booster alerted the coach to a talented freshman who had an interest in the school. The assistant coach, scouted the player at AAU events, followed up, got films of the player from the high school, and made sure the young man received a letter from the head coach. We a talking about a high school freshman – not a junior nor senior. The young man will always have a fondness for the ACC University.

Most of the identification, scouting, and “grooming” of talent is the job of the assistant coaches. Coach K at Duke may or may not be a great coach. But, he certainly had assistants who were great recruiters like Tommy Amaker and Johnny Dawkins. Dean Smith had assistants like Phil Ford who were great recruiters. Assistant coaches create and pursue the leads. A great head coach can close the deal. Big John demonstrated that he could close the deal. But, assistant coaches had to create and pursue the leads. GU lacked the assistants that were the big time recruiter.

Anthony Allen’s story of his recruitment suggests this. Allen was Mr. Basketball of Texas High school basketball his senior year. Of all the schools recruiting him, his final decision to attend GU came down to this: if JT would address an assembly at his high school, he would sign with GU. Evidently, Allen’s desires were communicated to JT. Big John addressed the assembly; Allen signed with GU. Anthony Allen was a very good high school basketball player. But he was not a McDonald’s High School All-American. By contrast, Kenny Anderson was a McDonald’s All-American and considered to be one of the all-time great guards in New York high school basketball history. Kenny Anderson would have signed with GU if JT had personally visited him. Considering what JT did to land Anthony Allen, fulfilling Kenny Anderson’s desire/request seemed to be very mundane task. Most likely, the assistant coach scouting Anderson never picked up on Anderson’s request/desire and what motivated him or the assistant coach never communicated it to JT. In fact, in later years, when asked about the Kenny Anderson situation, JT remarked that he was not in charge of recruiting Anderson.

My point is this, JT interest in coaching or recruiting did not decline after Reggie left or after the Mourning-Mutombo years. What was lacking was the assistant coach who could recruit – big time. We can fault JT for not hiring an assistant coach who could recruit at a level befitting a top tier college basketball program. But, I don’t see his enthusiasm for coaching or recruiting waning until 1997.

I do see improvements in GU’s recruiting under JTIII. Certainly class that includes Macklin and Summers would signal that GU can compete with the top tier college basketball programs in recruiting elite talent– something we haven’t seen since Big John left. But, it is when JTIII is able to put together a squad that possesses the balance of the squad of the 1989-1990 season (even if it underachieved) or even the 1995-1996 squad then we can talk about a rebirth of GU basketball. (The 1989-1990 squad had very good guard play – on offense and defense -- with Tillmon and Bryant and a potentially dominant, but still maturing frontline. Zo had a very good year, but was not comfortable playing power forward. He would be much better the next year. However, by then the quality perimeter players Edwards and Stoudamere had transferred and Zo injured himself in the Duke game; both tremendously hurt his game.)

But all said, it really has been a joy following the ups and downs of GU basketball. GU alumni should really be proud that their university had the foresight to hire an untested coaching talent, yet whose credentials were impeccable and would build the program the right way, without tarnishing the reputation of the university.