SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Aug 11, 2005 9:38:10 GMT -5
Thanks again NTAMM
A question about David Edwards. My recollection is the kid was from NYC and in HS averaged like 30ppg or so. He was a waterbug -- really quick, totally offensively minded, really exciting and very talented. Kind of like Iverson (in style, not talent level). JT didn't want him around because he wouldn't play JT's game. I remember being really disappointed when he left because he was so much fun to watch and had so much potential. It seemed as though JT ran him off. He ended up at some college in Texas (I think) and did quite well.
A few years later when the "real" Iverson arrived, JT had changed his tune and let AI do pretty much whatever he wanted. The opposite extreme of how he handled Edwards.
Does anyone else share that general impression? That we could have kept and shaped Edwards to fit closer to JT's game... but we also could have adapted more to his unique talents?
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Aug 11, 2005 10:26:02 GMT -5
Thanks again NTAMM A question about David Edwards. My recollection is the kid was from NYC and in HS averaged like 30ppg or so. He was a waterbug -- really quick, totally offensively minded, really exciting and very talented. Kind of like Iverson (in style, not talent level). JT didn't want him around because he wouldn't play JT's game. I remember being really disappointed when he left because he was so much fun to watch and had so much potential. It seemed as though JT ran him off. He ended up at some college in Texas (I think) and did quite well. A few years later when the "real" Iverson arrived, JT had changed his tune and let AI do pretty much whatever he wanted. The opposite extreme of how he handled Edwards. Does anyone else share that general impression? That we could have kept and shaped Edwards to fit closer to JT's game... but we also could have adapted more to his unique talents? It wasn't Edwards game. I always under the impression that it was his grades/behavior. JT will kick you out if you don't have the grades or the right behavior no matter how good the player, i.e.: Duane Spencer, David Edwards, George Butler, Michael Graham, Kenny Brunner, Shennard Long, etc. Those are some DAMN good players. Most colleges would turn a blind eye to it, and keep players of that caliber.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Aug 11, 2005 10:38:40 GMT -5
Yes Jx2, the years 1989-1991, were wastelands in terms of GU recruiting. It is baffling that GU was unable to recruit and maintain quality players to complement a talent like Mourning. Zo was so dominant his senior year that all GU needed was a quality perimeter player and team would be positioned to make a serious run at Big East and NCAA championships. Yet, GU’s recruiting was able to bounce back. In 1992, it landed recruits that were considered the #1 and #4 best high school seniors – Othella Harrington and Duane Spence. Consider the recruiting class of 1994: Allen Iverson, Jerome Williams, Jahidi White, Jerry Nicholas, Boubacar Aw; followed up with the class of 1995 that included Victor Page. Already on the team was Othella Harrington (and Don Reid for a year). I think we can say that JT brought in some serious talent those two years; talent to make for a serious run at an NCAA championship. But, GU’s recruiting efforts were usually inconsistent. JT had enormous prestige and could (and did) bring in top recruits. So as long as he was engaged and enthusiastic, he could land top recruits. For example, there is a good probability that Tyson Chandler would have played a year or two (maybe even three or four) at GU, if JT had continued to coach. JT had that kind of prestige. (He also had a very positive relationship with Chandler’s high school basketball coach.) There is a quote that goes something like this “Recruiting is like shaving. You must do it everyday.” The elite basketball talents have to be identified, scouted, and “groomed” early on. For example, I know of players who are rising high school freshmen, having never played a single minute of high school basketball. But, they are receiving letters from D-1 colleges and are reportedly being scouted by Big Ten Conference colleges. (I live in Ohio.) What generated the interest? Answer: assistant coaches either watched them play at a tournament or heard about their on-court prowess and scouted them. And made sure the players knew that they were being scouted by the school. A young man, when it was discovered that he had an interest, was immediately sent a letter from the ACC School of interest – after his freshman year in high school. How did that happen? A school booster alerted the coach to a talented freshman who had an interest in the school. The assistant coach, scouted the player at AAU events, followed up, got films of the player from the high school, and made sure the young man received a letter from the head coach. We a talking about a high school freshman – not a junior nor senior. The young man will always have a fondness for the ACC University. Most of the identification, scouting, and “grooming” of talent is the job of the assistant coaches. Coach K at Duke may or may not be a great coach. But, he certainly had assistants who were great recruiters like Tommy Amaker and Johnny Dawkins. Dean Smith had assistants like Phil Ford who were great recruiters. Assistant coaches create and pursue the leads. A great head coach can close the deal. Big John demonstrated that he could close the deal. But, assistant coaches had to create and pursue the leads. GU lacked the assistants that were the big time recruiter. Anthony Allen’s story of his recruitment suggests this. Allen was Mr. Basketball of Texas High school basketball his senior year. Of all the schools recruiting him, his final decision to attend GU came down to this: if JT would address an assembly at his high school, he would sign with GU. Evidently, Allen’s desires were communicated to JT. Big John addressed the assembly; Allen signed with GU. Anthony Allen was a very good high school basketball player. But he was not a McDonald’s High School All-American. By contrast, Kenny Anderson was a McDonald’s All-American and considered to be one of the all-time great guards in New York high school basketball history. Kenny Anderson would have signed with GU if JT had personally visited him. Considering what JT did to land Anthony Allen, fulfilling Kenny Anderson’s desire/request seemed to be very mundane task. Most likely, the assistant coach scouting Anderson never picked up on Anderson’s request/desire and what motivated him or the assistant coach never communicated it to JT. In fact, in later years, when asked about the Kenny Anderson situation, JT remarked that he was not in charge of recruiting Anderson. My point is this, JT interest in coaching or recruiting did not decline after Reggie left or after the Mourning-Mutombo years. What was lacking was the assistant coach who could recruit – big time. We can fault JT for not hiring an assistant coach who could recruit at a level befitting a top tier college basketball program. But, I don’t see his enthusiasm for coaching or recruiting waning until 1997. I do see improvements in GU’s recruiting under JTIII. Certainly class that includes Macklin and Summers would signal that GU can compete with the top tier college basketball programs in recruiting elite talent– something we haven’t seen since Big John left. But, it is when JTIII is able to put together a squad that possesses the balance of the squad of the 1989-1990 season (even if it underachieved) or even the 1995-1996 squad then we can talk about a rebirth of GU basketball. (The 1989-1990 squad had very good guard play – on offense and defense -- with Tillmon and Bryant and a potentially dominant, but still maturing frontline. Zo had a very good year, but was not comfortable playing power forward. He would be much better the next year. However, by then the quality perimeter players Edwards and Stoudamere had transferred and Zo injured himself in the Duke game; both tremendously hurt his game.) But all said, it really has been a joy following the ups and downs of GU basketball. GU alumni should really be proud that their university had the foresight to hire an untested coaching talent, yet whose credentials were impeccable and would build the program the right way, without tarnishing the reputation of the university. It wasn't the assistant coach. Lets be real, how good was Anthony Allen? Lets be serious. Esh was in charge of recruiting. He scouted and spotted the talent, and he brought it to JT's attention that so and so is a good player, then JT would step in. You don't believe, JT said this back in 1988 during the Olympics in the Washington Post when they were criticzing him that he didn't recruit white players. He said the guy in charge of his recruiting was white, i.e., Craig. But that is beside the point. A lot of great players JT2 didn't want, even though he knew they were great players, for whatever reason. But you are missing the point. It wasn't just talent, it was coaching as well. JT2 wasn't the same coach he was before either. The fundamentals of defense had deterioted under his helm in the 90's. It was easy to break a GU press in the 90's. They didn't put the fear of God in you defensively, like they did in the 80's. You look at that 95-96 team. An alert, hungry JT2 coaching that team would have met Kentucky in the final four and wouldn't have lossed 8 games. Great talent, but the BET final game says it all. That was a horrible coaching job by JT. So it was a culmination of things: JT's coaching and JT's blase approach in landing recruits that led to the slide. When JT2 really wanted to land a top recruit he did: Othella being an example. But more times than not he didn't.
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AvantGuardHoya
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Post by AvantGuardHoya on Aug 11, 2005 11:18:12 GMT -5
I, too, appreciate your comments, NTAMM. Keep it coming!
And SirSaxa, I share your recollection of what occurred with David Edwards. Big John clearly had a problem with Edwards’ on-court decision making. Perhaps this was compounded by his grades/off court behavior, as mentioned by the_way, as well. David demonstrated that crowd-pleasing, NYC flair with the basketball; Big John’s always expressed a fondness for a more fundamentally sound style.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 11, 2005 11:23:54 GMT -5
Thanks again NTAMM A question about David Edwards. My recollection is the kid was from NYC and in HS averaged like 30ppg or so. He was a waterbug -- really quick, totally offensively minded, really exciting and very talented. Kind of like Iverson (in style, not talent level). JT didn't want him around because he wouldn't play JT's game. I remember being really disappointed when he left because he was so much fun to watch and had so much potential. It seemed as though JT ran him off. He ended up at some college in Texas (I think) and did quite well. A few years later when the "real" Iverson arrived, JT had changed his tune and let AI do pretty much whatever he wanted. The opposite extreme of how he handled Edwards. Does anyone else share that general impression? That we could have kept and shaped Edwards to fit closer to JT's game... but we also could have adapted more to his unique talents? Yes. I had several discusions with friends about this. JT often points out that since AI spent time in jail he didn't want to put the handcuffs on him when he was on the court or something like that. So he let him do his thing. I think though that JT also realized it may have been his only way to help the team win. He was a bit more mellow to by that time. Plus JT had to have realized that Iverson was far more talented than Edwards.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Aug 11, 2005 12:03:54 GMT -5
Thanks again NTAMM A question about David Edwards. My recollection is the kid was from NYC and in HS averaged like 30ppg or so. He was a waterbug -- really quick, totally offensively minded, really exciting and very talented. Kind of like Iverson (in style, not talent level). JT didn't want him around because he wouldn't play JT's game. I remember being really disappointed when he left because he was so much fun to watch and had so much potential. It seemed as though JT ran him off. He ended up at some college in Texas (I think) and did quite well. A few years later when the "real" Iverson arrived, JT had changed his tune and let AI do pretty much whatever he wanted. The opposite extreme of how he handled Edwards. Does anyone else share that general impression? That we could have kept and shaped Edwards to fit closer to JT's game... but we also could have adapted more to his unique talents? Yes. I had several discusions with friends about this. JT often points out that since AI spent time in jail he didn't want to put the handcuffs on him when he was on the court or something like that. So he let him do his thing. I think though that JT also realized it may have been his only way to help the team win. He was a bit more mellow to by that time. Plus JT had to have realized that Iverson was far more talented than Edwards. MCI, you raise up some key points. In an article in the Philadelphia inquirer they were talking about AI and the great year he was having and his place in history. They interviewed JT. JT2 mentioned how it would have been wrong for him to try and control and resrict Allen's game. JT2 would often say "you don't crush creativity". He said Allen was to strong-willed to be controlled. BUT, he wasn't wrong for doing that because it was clearly obvious the ball should run trough Iverson. But also, lets look at history. What was Reggie and the Miracles. Didn't Reggie have free reign back then? It wasn't like this way was totally new for Thompson. What about Sleepy Floyd? It wasn't like this was Thompson's first great guard/wing player with super talent. Or even George Butler his first year. Or what about Butler's second year in the overtime game against MEmphis when AI fouled out. They gave it to Butler and let Butler work his Magic every time out to win the game. Again, I think it was Edwards grades as to why he left. Can anybody else recall what was the reasoning at that time he transferred? I do remember I was bewildered that he was transferring given that Bryant was graduating and Edwards had shown promise.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Aug 11, 2005 15:48:00 GMT -5
One other thing which we attribute to JT's not keeping the defense up to its former caliber. Other teams adjusted to Hoya defense. When JT started his defense orientation, he took others by surprise but after a while, like always, teams started figuring out how to get past the defenses.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Aug 11, 2005 16:04:55 GMT -5
One other thing which we attribute to JT's not keeping the defense up to its former caliber. Other teams adjusted to Hoya defense. When JT started his defense orientation, he took others by surprise but after a while, like always, teams started figuring out how to get past the defenses. It wasn't a suprise. People knew what we were running. JT2 didn't create new defenses during his peak. He just executed the defense extremely well with great players. Thompson didn't do anything new, but it seemed like the excution of the press wasn't cohesive. Like I said, the fundamentals weren't the same. Guys didn't rotate, etc. The execution of his defense had diminished.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Aug 11, 2005 17:49:42 GMT -5
This is a great thread, with lots of good insight.
While I'm 3000 miles away, the word I got about Edwards at the time was that his grades were the determining factor in his "decision" to transfer.
One other factor relating to the weakening of our defense is that the games moved to automatic time outs every 4 minutes. We used to wear teams down with our pressure, but with time outs coming so frequently, teams found it easier to adjust. Which is not to say that _way isn't correct, in general on this issue. I just wanted to point out one factor no one else had mentioned.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 11, 2005 21:10:21 GMT -5
There were discussions in SWC circles in the early 1990's that suggested Edwards had ties with Kermit Davis, an Idaho assistant who was heading to Texas A&M in the summer of 1990. Edwards tranferred to A&M that summer.
The Davis era at TAMU was as painful as it was short. Davis was dismissed after a brutal 8-21 season in 1991, and circumstances raised about a proposed transfer of Tony Scott from Syracuse cost the Aggies two years probation in 1991. The school has posted only two winning seasons since then.
Edwards played at Texas A&M from 1991-94. He is the school's all time assist leader at (602) and steals (228) while playing for Davis' successor, Tony Barone.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Aug 12, 2005 10:44:19 GMT -5
This is a great thread with lots of excellent insight.
The truth lies in a combination of many of the ideas expressed in this thread. Although JT clearly did not lose his passion for coaching, he did seem to lose a bit of that killer instinct. But as some have pointed out, he still landed numerous good and even excellent recruits after the mid-eighties. He was still a great defensive coach and he still got his guys to give everything that they had to give. But consider the combination of all of these factors:
-- the inception of the three-point shot -- the inception of the TV game (four-minute TOs-- great insight, hoyarooter) -- the rise of AAU coaches, which JT openly disapproved of and fought against -- a number of costly academic and conduct-related causalties -- the lack of institutional support (facilities, etc) -- the absurd yet popular notion that JT was a racist
and so on and so forth. It is impossible to quantify these factors, but it is clear that all of them had something to do with the program's decline. What is clear is that JT did continue to coach and run his program at a much higher level than most of his competition while simultaneously making some costly decisions and having some bad luck. I wonder if a true "insider" might have a better take on things, but that is the best that I can say.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Aug 12, 2005 11:13:25 GMT -5
Also, JT2 had a rep of being a control freak. A lot players especially in the 90's wouldn't want to play in such a regimented environment as JT2 created. The newer generation had no time for the JT2s and Bob Knights of the world. Remember, everybody was saying Bob Knight was losing his touch in the 90's as well. I remember Iverson when his camp suggested that he should go to Georgetown, Iverson flat out said NO initially. He knew JT2 was a control-freak and he thought he would restrict his game, but JT2 told him he would give him free reign on just the court.
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KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Aug 12, 2005 15:56:46 GMT -5
NTAMM- I just wanted to thank you for an outstanding series of posts in this thread. Keep up the good work and welcome to the board.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Aug 12, 2005 16:04:32 GMT -5
NTAMM- I just wanted to thank you for an outstanding series of posts in this thread. Keep up the good work and welcome to the board. Actually, NTAMM has been a long time -- if infrequent -- poster, dating back to well before this board even existed. I am not sure how he knows what he knows, but he has followed GU Hoops closely for quite some time. You can always count on some interesting info in his posts -- as you correctly cited about those in this thread.
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KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Aug 12, 2005 16:11:17 GMT -5
NTAMM- I just wanted to thank you for an outstanding series of posts in this thread. Keep up the good work and welcome to the board. Actually, NTAMM has been a long time -- if infrequent -- poster, dating back to well before this board even existed. I am not sure how he knows what he knows, but he has followed GU Hoops closely for quite some time. You can always count on some interesting info in his posts -- as you correctly cited about those in this thread. I stand corrected. In any event much appreciated. We can always use more of his ilk on this board.
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