prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Dec 17, 2022 8:59:40 GMT -5
My son is a sophomore. 1 game which I took him to since we had courtside seats. No interest from any in his friend group/social sphere. BB is irrelevant for the current student body. Unlike with JT3’s removal there is no student led grass roots movement for change … no one speaks of BB … they just do not care It’s sad. Last year’s Dartmouth game gives me hope that the interest is there, but Pat, Ronny and Jack are not fooling the students again. Build/Fix the program and they will come.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Dec 17, 2022 12:18:11 GMT -5
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 17, 2022 12:36:53 GMT -5
To be fair HM college sports have long been an explicitly professional operation that Gtown has chosen to participate in.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 17, 2022 12:40:24 GMT -5
It’s gonna happen when we go to a 12 team college football playoff. Players will demand to get paid and share in the profits and probably should with that expansion. I guess then you have a salary cap while likely hurts blue bloods and Cheaters somewhat.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Dec 17, 2022 13:25:30 GMT -5
To be fair HM college sports have long been an explicitly professional operation that Gtown has chosen to participate in. There's a real difference in kind between schools that have essentially oriented the entire institution around their football and basketball programs and a school like Georgetown that has not and will not. It's a spectrum, of course, and a few very deep-pocketed schools (Duke, Stanford, less successfully Northwestern) have been able to keep pace in the HM arms race through sheer force of resources without sacrificing their standing as elite and ethical academic institutions, which is what JJD and the Board prioritizes above all else. But we've been slipping further and further behind in that arms race as it has escalated over time across all phases - legal (practice and game facilities), semi-legal (e.g., Kansas's basketball player palace dorm), and illegal (e.g. paying players, plying recruits with prostitutes, and other tactics so skillfully employed by the inexplicably popular around these parts Rick Pitino). Where in the past the resulting disadvantages could be overcome, that is becoming less and less viable. For years, we could point to Villanova and say, "If they can make it work, #WhyNotUs?" Jay Wright retiring and more or less admitting that model would no longer work speaks volumes. This is all a systemic-level crisis, though, to use Jack's term. If we go down one level of analysis to the program leadership, we run into the problem that Patrick Ewing is a pretty bad college head coach. The results he's producing are far below replacement level. It's important not to conflate those two problems. The former explains why we won't be sniffing another Final Four, regardless of who is coach. The latter is why we're losing to American and getting taken to OT by Coppin State.
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TC
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Post by TC on Dec 17, 2022 13:54:23 GMT -5
It's probably worth everyone keeping in mind that the entire revenue college sports landscape will sooner or later be completely blown up and reconstituted as an explicitly professional operation. NIL has made it so de facto, and it's only a matter of time before it becomes so de jure. Institutionally, Georgetown is not willing to go down that path. Fair enough. Why do you assume that? Institutionally the school is willing to spend competitively on basketball in coaching salary / arena rent / facilities, the last offseason the program has pretty obviously played in areas that they never have before (run-offs, Nickelberry), and graduation and education are no longer selling points of the program and we have a bottom-of-the-barrel program in terms of APR. I've had to recalibrate all of my priors of what Georgetown would be willing to do because of what they've been willing to accept from the program since 2019 AND the fact that they extended Ewing despite all of it. Before 2021, I'd have probably agreed with you, but they've purposefully thrown aside everything this offseason to try to compete. Every glove is off, and judging by DeGioia's comments, he's aware of everything and is onboard with it. If all these things are acceptable after an 0-20 season - and they are willing to bend every standard to try to make Ewing work and they are willing to extend him despite a terrible record in the academic portion, why do you assume Georgetown isn't willing to compete in the new landscape? Really the only piece missing here is a competitive coaching staff like a Pitino.
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Dec 17, 2022 14:24:12 GMT -5
Have had a busy last few days but a couple quick reactions to the DeGioia London comments:
1) Kudos to the alum who asked the question and kudos to the alum that filmed and leaked it to Hilltop Hoops. This is exactly what we need to bring publicity to the situation, ultimately embarassing those in authority which apparently is the only means to effect rational change.
2) At this stage of the season, knowing what we know about the school's financial commitment to Ewing, I wouldn't expect JD to respond with anything but niceties as it relates to Ewing's job status. The fact that he went on a word salad filibuster, implying that the changing college athletics landscape is harmful to Georgetown's ability to compete, was fascinating, however. If he thinks it's so hard in the current landscape, why are we paying a coach $4M/year and spending ~$15M+ annually on the program? Wouldn't that money be better spent elsewhere than on a lost cause basketball program? It doesn't make sense to complain about the difficulty of the situation but then spend money the way we are - you can't have it both ways. An enterprising reporter (The Hoya? The Voice?) could have a field day with this.
3) In the last ~9 months, leaks have brought attention to Ewing's contract extension, Ronny Thompson's role within the program, and an off-the-cuff rant by the university president showing his cards re: men's basketball. These are all things that the administration would not have wanted to become public. As things like these do become public, the worse it makes JD, Ronny and Ewing look. Based on history, only when he thinks he looks really bad publicly does JD feel forced to make moves he'd rather not make. Big props to Hilltop Hoops for exposing these and other embarassing situations for the men's basketball program (which Aidan has courageously exposed as costing him access to the program).
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 17, 2022 14:27:20 GMT -5
To be fair HM college sports have long been an explicitly professional operation that Gtown has chosen to participate in. There's a real difference in kind between schools that have essentially oriented the entire institution around their football and basketball programs and a school like Georgetown that has not and will not. It's a spectrum, of course, and a few very deep-pocketed schools (Duke, Stanford, less successfully Northwestern) have been able to keep pace in the HM arms race through sheer force of resources without sacrificing their standing as elite and ethical academic institutions, which is what JJD and the Board prioritizes above all else. But we've been slipping further and further behind in that arms race as it has escalated over time across all phases - legal (practice and game facilities), semi-legal (e.g., Kansas's basketball player palace dorm), and illegal (e.g. paying players, plying recruits with prostitutes, and other tactics so skillfully employed by the inexplicably popular around these parts Rick Pitino). Where in the past the resulting disadvantages could be overcome, that is becoming less and less viable. For years, we could point to Villanova and say, "If they can make it work, #WhyNotUs?" Jay Wright retiring and more or less admitting that model would no longer work speaks volumes. This is all a systemic-level crisis, though, to use Jack's term. If we go down one level of analysis to the program leadership, we run into the problem that Patrick Ewing is a pretty bad college head coach. The results he's producing are far below replacement level. It's important not to conflate those two problems. The former explains why we won't be sniffing another Final Four, regardless of who is coach. The latter is why we're losing to American and getting taken to OT by Coppin State. Be fair though, sure Gtown is behind Duke, Kansas, etc. in the "arms" race you're citing but they're not behind PC, Seton Hall, St. John's, DePaul, Creighton, or anyone in the BE besides Uconn so bringing up blue blood programs is a deflection in my view. Obviously, this is my opinion but Wright admitted he didn't want to learn the new way, not that Nova could no longer compete in it. He stated several times that his younger assistants were all over it, he also intimated he'd use his new position to help make sure Nova was competitive in this new world. I can't worry about not being able to get to another FF4 when the program is finishing last in the conference, the "pending" arms race has nothing to do with the current failure going on right now. As a side note, I'm typing this as I'm watching a very entertaining game between PC & SH. No need to comment any further folks get my point of mentioning it..
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Dec 17, 2022 15:01:28 GMT -5
Be fair though, sure Gtown is behind Duke, Kansas, etc. in the "arms" race you're citing but they're not behind PC, Seton Hall, St. John's, DePaul, Creighton, or anyone in the BE besides Uconn so bringing up blue blood programs is a deflection in my view. Obviously, this is my opinion but Wright admitted he didn't want to learn the new way, not that Nova could no longer compete in it. He stated several times that his younger assistants were all over it, he also intimated he'd use his new position to help make sure Nova was competitive in this new world. I can't worry about not being able to get to another FF4 when the program is finishing last in the conference, the "pending" arms race has nothing to do with the current failure going on right now. As a side note, I'm typing this as I'm watching a very entertaining game between PC & SH. No need to comment any further folks get my point of mentioning it.. I would agree with you that JJD is doing some deflection here, choosing to address the structural problem - arms race - rather than the programmatic leadership problem - Pat is not a good college coach and not only is he not getting any better, he appears to be regressing. The latter is why we're not competitive even with the Seton Halls and St. John's of the world, who might be willing to play it looser in some ethical areas (Anyone remember the GONZONE?) but don't have the pull to secure themselves a regular spot in the top echelon. They have competent coaches and we...umm...
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Dec 17, 2022 15:15:14 GMT -5
It's probably worth everyone keeping in mind that the entire revenue college sports landscape will sooner or later be completely blown up and reconstituted as an explicitly professional operation. NIL has made it so de facto, and it's only a matter of time before it becomes so de jure. Institutionally, Georgetown is not willing to go down that path. Fair enough. Why do you assume that? Institutionally the school is willing to spend competitively on basketball in coaching salary / arena rent / facilities, the last offseason the program has pretty obviously played in areas that they never have before (run-offs, Nickelberry), and graduation and education are no longer selling points of the program and we have a bottom-of-the-barrel program in terms of APR. I've had to recalibrate all of my priors of what Georgetown would be willing to do because of what they've been willing to accept from the program since 2019 AND the fact that they extended Ewing despite all of it. Before 2021, I'd have probably agreed with you, but they've purposefully thrown aside everything this offseason to try to compete. Every glove is off, and judging by DeGioia's comments, he's aware of everything and is onboard with it. If all these things are acceptable after an 0-20 season - and they are willing to bend every standard to try to make Ewing work and they are willing to extend him despite a terrible record in the academic portion, why do you assume Georgetown isn't willing to compete in the new landscape? Really the only piece missing here is a competitive coaching staff like a Pitino. On the spending side: if you look strictly at 'on the books' spending associated with basketball, then yes, it looks like Georgetown's spending is near the very top of the country. But the hookers Pitino gets recruits and the KU palace dorm and the under the table payments and, of course, the NIL money does not show up 'on the books.' On the other stuff: I've not seen anything approaching hard evidence that there has been a change in what is permisable. Someone like Broadus operated within different guardrails here than he did when he was a head coach at another institution, and I have not seen any evidence that someone like Nickelberry is any different - what he does as an assistant here is not necessarily identical to what he did elsewhere. The same holds true for "run-offs" - if someone has some hard evidence, we'd all love to see it. Until then, it's innuendo directed toward a coach that people are understandably fed up with. The APR thing is a function of transfers, and while Georgetown has had an especially high number, the numbers have gone through the roof across D-I with the new rules. The players who stay all graduate.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 17, 2022 15:47:26 GMT -5
On the other stuff: I've not seen anything approaching hard evidence that there has been a change in what is permisable. Someone like Broadus operated within different guardrails here than he did when he was a head coach at another institution, and I have not seen any evidence that someone like Nickelberry is any different - what he does as an assistant here is not necessarily identical to what he did elsewhere. The same holds true for "run-offs" - if someone has some hard evidence, we'd all love to see it. Until then, it's innuendo directed toward a coach that people are understandably fed up with. The APR thing is a function of transfers, and while Georgetown has had an especially high number, the numbers have gone through the roof across D-I with the new rules. The players who stay all graduate. I am still unsure why you seem to give a pass to Broadus or Nickelberry, but not somebody like Pitino. You are essentially saying that someone like Broadus or Nickelberry can be excused of their connections to problematic programs because things are different here. Meanwhile, Pitino has been at Iona and had no problems whatsoever (that we know about), and he is still unacceptable? The idea that Georgetown would handle Pitino the same way as Louisville seems like a stretch, it would obviously be a very different situation for him. Still, I can respect your opinion re: Pitino and institutional control - he had failures at Louisville. Personally, that wouldn't prevent me from hiring him at Georgetown, but I get why it might make others uncomfortable. As far as the APR, I think you are being overly generous to Ewing. Yes, transfers hurt, but Ewing has had significant roster turnover greater than other D-I programs that play by the same rules. Not to mention we've had a guys who either never actually put on the uniform (Tre King) or barely do and then disappear (Jalen Harris). As far as "The players who stay all graduate," the only 4-year Ewing player I am aware of who graduated under Ewing is Blair (Mosely started under JT3). I believe Pickett did not actually graduate. Of course, the premise of your sentence essentially is a red herring since nobody stays. The entire classes of 2018, 2019, and 2020 transferred, and most of the class of 2021 is already gone, too. On our current roster, the only possible graduate could be Wahab, and he will not have even been here for 4 years. While I don't expect to go back to the past when most guys played 4 years and graduated, excusing Ewing's track record on retention by pointing to transfers misses gravity of what has happened. Frankly, if we were winning, I could maybe say "Okay, well it's been rough but we are winning." But, having a poor APR plus being horrible is inexcusable and an embarrassment to Georgetown as an institution. EDIT: I was wrong, it appears Pickett did graduate.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Dec 17, 2022 16:10:05 GMT -5
I am still unsure why you seem to give a pass to Broadus or Nickelberry, but not somebody like Pitino. You are essentially saying that someone like Broadus or Nickelberry can be excused of their connections to problematic programs because things are different here. Meanwhile, Pitino has been at Iona and had no problems whatsoever (that we know about), and he is still unacceptable? The idea that Georgetown would handle Pitino the same way as Louisville seems like a stretch, it would obviously be a very different situation for him. Still, I can respect your opinion re: Pitino and institutional control - he had failures at Louisville. Personally, that wouldn't prevent me from hiring him at Georgetown, but I get why it might make others uncomfortable. You make a very fair and reasonable point. My only rejoinder is that Pitino would never accept a job that put those kinds of restrictions around him. The chances of him becoming Georgetown's coach are literally zero. As far as the APR, I think you are being overly generous to Ewing. Yes, transfers hurt, but Ewing has had significant roster turnover greater than other D-I programs that play by the same rules. Not to mention we've had a guys who either never actually put on the uniform (Tre King) or barely do and then disappear (Jalen Harris). My only point was that the APR is a function of the transfers, rather than performance while in school, which is an institutional control issue that implicates University employees beyond the basketball office. Ewing must, of course, bear responsibility for the inordinate number of departures and the repeated recruiting misfires. It's simply not good enough. As far as "The players who stay all graduate," the only 4-year Ewing player I am aware of who graduated under Ewing is Blair (Mosely started under JT3). I believe Pickett did not actually graduate. Of course, the premise of your sentence essentially is a red herring since nobody stays. The entire classes of 2018, 2019, and 2020 transferred, and most of the class of 2021 is already gone, too. On our current roster, the only possible graduate could be Wahab, and he will not have even been here for 4 years. While I don't expect to go back to the past when most guys played 4 years and graduated, excusing Ewing's track record on retention by pointing to transfers misses gravity of what has happened. Frankly, if we were winning, I could maybe say "Okay, well it's been rough but we are winning." But, having a poor APR plus being horrible is inexcusable and an embarrassment to Georgetown as an institution. As the NBA on TNT gang would say...Come on, Man! georgetownvoice.com/2022/03/04/jamorko-after-georgetown/Your larger point is, of course, perfectly fair - can't graduate if you don't stay at the school! Things happen, and transfers are more common now, but then overall record stinks, and it's on Pat's head. The reason it's not a red herring is because it does bear on the question of institutional control and oversight. It's the job of the larger administration to make sure the kids go to class and make adequate academic progress. I have not seen any reduced commitment in that regard. Pat recruiting and coaching kids who want to stay is another matter entirely.
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TC
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Post by TC on Dec 17, 2022 16:42:28 GMT -5
Multiple Voice stories refer to Pickett as graduated, Pickett has never shown up in a graduation roll. One of the Voice stories was in the same week when he was scheduled to graduate.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 17, 2022 16:42:47 GMT -5
Be fair though, sure Gtown is behind Duke, Kansas, etc. in the "arms" race you're citing but they're not behind PC, Seton Hall, St. John's, DePaul, Creighton, or anyone in the BE besides Uconn so bringing up blue blood programs is a deflection in my view. Obviously, this is my opinion but Wright admitted he didn't want to learn the new way, not that Nova could no longer compete in it. He stated several times that his younger assistants were all over it, he also intimated he'd use his new position to help make sure Nova was competitive in this new world. I can't worry about not being able to get to another FF4 when the program is finishing last in the conference, the "pending" arms race has nothing to do with the current failure going on right now. As a side note, I'm typing this as I'm watching a very entertaining game between PC & SH. No need to comment any further folks get my point of mentioning it.. I would agree with you that JJD is doing some deflection here, choosing to address the structural problem - arms race - rather than the programmatic leadership problem - Pat is not a good college coach and not only is he not getting any better, he appears to be regressing. The latter is why we're not competitive even with the Seton Halls and St. John's of the world, who might be willing to play it looser in some ethical areas (Anyone remember the GONZONE?) but don't have the pull to secure themselves a regular spot in the top echelon. They have competent coaches and we...umm... Even more so these schools have competent administrative leadership in their Men's basketball programs. It's easy to see why programs like Butler or Xavier or Marquette never fall off of a cliff with fan support the way Gtown has...
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TC
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Post by TC on Dec 17, 2022 16:49:41 GMT -5
On the other stuff: I've not seen anything approaching hard evidence that there has been a change in what is permisable. Someone like Broadus operated within different guardrails here than he did when he was a head coach at another institution, and I have not seen any evidence that someone like Nickelberry is any different - what he does as an assistant here is not necessarily identical to what he did elsewhere. What "different guardrails" did Broadus act under? I get that it's something people like to tell themselves, but I see no evidence of it. The hard evidence is that one of our scholarship players is now a manager. Even if you are credulous enough to believe that a rising Senior would willingly transfer out to Cal Baptist, moving from team scholarship to a manager role isn't something you can deny.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Dec 17, 2022 16:53:40 GMT -5
Multiple Voice stories refer to Pickett as graduated, Pickett has never shown up in a graduation roll. One of the Voice stories was in the same week when he was scheduled to graduate. I don't know what a "graduation roll" is, but unless there's an argument being made that The Voice failed to confirm this very basic fact and the Athletic Director contributed to spreading this misperception, I don't know what to do with it
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Dec 17, 2022 16:53:53 GMT -5
On the other stuff: I've not seen anything approaching hard evidence that there has been a change in what is permisable. Someone like Broadus operated within different guardrails here than he did when he was a head coach at another institution, and I have not seen any evidence that someone like Nickelberry is any different - what he does as an assistant here is not necessarily identical to what he did elsewhere. What "different guardrails" did Broadus act under? I get that it's something people like to tell themselves, but I see no evidence of it. The hard evidence is that one of our scholarship players is now a manager. Even if you are credulous enough to believe that a rising Senior would willingly transfer out to Cal Baptist, moving from team scholarship to a manager role isn't something you can deny. It takes a special kind of willful ignorance to believe we are a cleaner/more ethically run program than other peer programs, especially after bringing in some of the guys that we have.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Dec 17, 2022 17:04:14 GMT -5
On the other stuff: I've not seen anything approaching hard evidence that there has been a change in what is permisable. Someone like Broadus operated within different guardrails here than he did when he was a head coach at another institution, and I have not seen any evidence that someone like Nickelberry is any different - what he does as an assistant here is not necessarily identical to what he did elsewhere. What "different guardrails" did Broadus act under? I get that it's something people like to tell themselves, but I see no evidence of it. I dunno, "don't cheat?" The evidence being that Mr. Broadus received 0 sanctions for violations while at Georgetown and >0 sanctions for violations at Binghamton. Beyond that, and the general ethos of "don't cheat" that is reinforced with every coach at Georgetown, it's not really possible to prove a negative. The hard evidence is that one of our scholarship players is now a manager. Even if you are credulous enough to believe that a rising Senior would willingly transfer out to Cal Baptist, moving from team scholarship to a manager role isn't something you can deny. I mean, if I had to play for Pat, I'd run off to Cal Baptist too. As for Malcolm Wilson...as we all should know from Tyler Adams' situation, there's lots of things that could be the case. That he chose to remain with the program, rather than transferring elsewhere and letting the world know Patrick Ewing and the university were committing an extremely unethical act, should be taken into account in any analysis.
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TC
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Post by TC on Dec 17, 2022 17:07:54 GMT -5
Multiple Voice stories refer to Pickett as graduated, Pickett has never shown up in a graduation roll. One of the Voice stories was in the same week when he was scheduled to graduate. I don't know what a "graduation roll" is, but unless there's an argument being made that The Voice failed to confirm this very basic fact and the Athletic Director contributed to spreading this misperception, I don't know what to do with it Here's the conferral of degrees for 2021 : Here is original The Voice article from May 2021 that makes the claim he was graduating : georgetownvoice.com/2021/05/24/i-am-dc-jamorkos-journey/
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TC
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Post by TC on Dec 17, 2022 17:15:54 GMT -5
I mean, if I had to play for Pat, I'd run off to Cal Baptist too. I've read your posts for years, I don't believe that's true, I think you would have stayed the year and gotten your Georgetown degree. I don't think Ighoefe had that choice. Even though he never was going to get any contribution out of him because of his condition, JT3 kept Tyler Adams on scholarship as a counter. That used to be the standard. What Ewing is doing isn't comparable at all, and he pretty much outlined why he pushed kids out in his summer interview with Fanta.
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