Where is your bar?

[hoyaatheart55]

Now that we have Q back in the fold, it seems like the roster is finally set. Now my question is, what is your bar for what Ewing needs to do with this roster this season? Let’s assume that Heath and Q get waivers, which seems most likely to happen.

For me, after going 0-20 and somehow keeping his job, this year became a do or die. I think we have the talent to receive an at large bid and anything short of that is strike four for Coach Pat. More specifically, I need to see significant schematic improvement on both sides but especially on defense. Another year of defense in the 300s is unacceptable. Closer to 150 should not be too much to ask.

It would be interesting to get people on record and then check back at the end of the season. Where is your bar? Tournament or bust for me.

[madgesiq92]

Agree. Reasonable people can disagree about the way we went about this off-season, but the end result is a team with tournament talent. It’s up to Ewing now

[hoyaroc]

Put me on record for Tournament. Unless god forbid major injuries. Let’s go Hoyas!

[hoyaatheart55]

May 23, 2022 20:02:26 GMT -5 hoyaroc said:

Put me on record for Tournament. Unless god forbid major injuries. Let’s go Hoyas!

Noted.

[wsdhoya]

I disagree pretty strongly with placing the bar at an at large bid. The Big East is going to be an absolute GAUNTLET next season with the additions that many programs have made. Providence for example has made several high profile transfer additions and today got Bynum back. Nova will still be good, Xavier is going to be very good, even Butler got a couple good transfers, etc. etc. Really almost the entire league from top to bottom, yes including Georgetown, has improved.

One thing that will hurt this team imo is the lack of *quality* depth. Even if we get waivers for Q and Heath there are some real gaps in the rotation. For example, if Q plays the 5 and Akok plays the 4, who is backing either of them up? Hopefully Mutombo makes strides in the offseason but our player development (particularly in the weight room) appears to be lacking behind others in the league from what I have heard. Bass will also have to play a decent amount of minutes at the 4 in all likelihood as an unheralded freshman which is a lot to ask even if he is a promising player, which I think he is. We don't really have a prototypical 3 and will have to play a lot of three guard lineups despite only really having four playable guards.

The other major limitation I see with this team is inefficiency. Dante, while an absolute bulldog and fierce competitor, is a brutally inefficient point guard. The transfer Spears was about as inefficient as they come playing for Duquesne. Brandon Murray also had a pretty far below par efficiency rating last year and he's probably the guy we need to be our star. Heath wasn't the most efficient player at ASU or BC either but I think he'll be fine. None of these guard transfers appear to be distributors, and putting low efficiency players in an environment where they will have a much higher usage is not exactly a recipe for success.

This team obviously is more talented than last year's disaster, but I think playing competitive games and winning 5 or more in the league is a step in the right direction. This is also a great example of why not firing Ewing was problematic, because we can still finish in last place and it will still be an improvement, but asking any coach to take this team through the deepest Big East since realignment into the tournament is a pretty tough ask imo.

[thedragon]

My bar: Tournament team (which feels very odd to say after 0-19. Iowa State did it last year after an 0 for conference season. The talent on paper is a tournament team. Ewings seat * should be * scorching hot. Tournament or bust.

The University: Who the hell knows. But Ewing has gone all in on remaking the roster. Which makes me feel like he knows the leash is very short.

Murray, Heath, Akok and Q are high quality-high major portal pickups. And guys like Spears and Mozone are very interesting talents who will have to acclimate to the level.

IF...I said IF...because we really haven't seen it in 5 years - Ewing can get the team chemistry on track I think this will be a much more enjoyable season than I expected.

[thedragon]

May 23, 2022 20:16:29 GMT -5 wsdhoya said:

I disagree pretty strongly with placing the bar at an at large bid. The Big East is going to be an absolute GAUNTLET next season with the additions that many programs have made. Providence for example has made several high profile transfer additions and today got Bynum back. Nova will still be good, Xavier is going to be very good, even Butler got a couple good transfers, etc. etc. Really almost the entire league from top to bottom, yes including Georgetown, has improved.

One thing that will hurt this team imo is the lack of *quality* depth. Even if we get waivers for Q and Heath there are some real gaps in the rotation. For example, if Q plays the 5 and Akok plays the 4, who is backing either of them up? Hopefully Mutombo makes strides in the offseason but our player development (particularly in the weight room) appears to be lacking behind others in the league from what I have heard. Bass will also have to play a decent amount of minutes at the 4 in all likelihood as an unheralded freshman which is a lot to ask even if he is a promising player, which I think he is. We don't really have a prototypical 3 and will have to play a lot of three guard lineups despite only really having four playable guards.

The other major limitation I see with this team is inefficiency. Dante, while an absolute bulldog and fierce competitor, is a brutally inefficient point guard. The transfer Spears was about as inefficient as they come playing for Duquesne. Brandon Murray also had a pretty far below par efficiency rating last year and he's probably the guy we need to be our star. Heath wasn't the most efficient player at ASU or BC either but I think he'll be fine. None of these guard transfers appear to be distributors, and putting low efficiency players in an environment where they will have a much higher usage is not exactly a recipe for success.

This team obviously is more talented than last year's disaster, but I think playing competitive games and winning 5 or more in the league is a step in the right direction. This is also a great example of why not firing Ewing was problematic, because we can still finish in last place and it will still be an improvement, but asking any coach to take this team through the deepest Big East since realignment into the tournament is a pretty tough ask imo.

I think you're short changing Mozone (a second team all big south performer) and Eziwiro to an extent. I think if Bass is playing much something has gone pretty wrong. I'd expect Mozone to get a good amount of 4 minutes.

[hoyaatheart55]

May 23, 2022 20:16:29 GMT -5 wsdhoya said:

I disagree pretty strongly with placing the bar at an at large bid. The Big East is going to be an absolute GAUNTLET next season with the additions that many programs have made. Providence for example has made several high profile transfer additions and today got Bynum back. Nova will still be good, Xavier is going to be very good, even Butler got a couple good transfers, etc. etc. Really almost the entire league from top to bottom, yes including Georgetown, has improved.

One thing that will hurt this team imo is the lack of *quality* depth. Even if we get waivers for Q and Heath there are some real gaps in the rotation. For example, if Q plays the 5 and Akok plays the 4, who is backing either of them up? Hopefully Mutombo makes strides in the offseason but our player development (particularly in the weight room) appears to be lacking behind others in the league from what I have heard. Bass will also have to play a decent amount of minutes at the 4 in all likelihood as an unheralded freshman which is a lot to ask even if he is a promising player, which I think he is. We don't really have a prototypical 3 and will have to play a lot of three guard lineups despite only really having four playable guards.

The other major limitation I see with this team is inefficiency. Dante, while an absolute bulldog and fierce competitor, is a brutally inefficient point guard. The transfer Spears was about as inefficient as they come playing for Duquesne. Brandon Murray also had a pretty far below par efficiency rating last year and he's probably the guy we need to be our star. Heath wasn't the most efficient player at ASU or BC either but I think he'll be fine. None of these guard transfers appear to be distributors, and putting low efficiency players in an environment where they will have a much higher usage is not exactly a recipe for success.

This team obviously is more talented than last year's disaster, but I think playing competitive games and winning 5 or more in the league is a step in the right direction. This is also a great example of why not firing Ewing was problematic, because we can still finish in last place and it will still be an improvement, but asking any coach to take this team through the deepest Big East since realignment into the tournament is a pretty tough ask imo.

Well my question really is what’s your bar for what Ewing has to do to keep his job.

Tournament or bust.

[hoyaguy]

I'm glad a lot of people are on the tournament or bust line because this is just ridiculous let's be real the seat is gone, it caught on fire, and burned to ash so who knows what JD is thinking but at this point it should be:

Tournament or please just leave

Teams with less talent can get bids and be ranked far better in D

[wsdhoya]

May 23, 2022 20:24:51 GMT -5 thedragon said:

May 23, 2022 20:16:29 GMT -5 wsdhoya said:

I disagree pretty strongly with placing the bar at an at large bid. The Big East is going to be an absolute GAUNTLET next season with the additions that many programs have made. Providence for example has made several high profile transfer additions and today got Bynum back. Nova will still be good, Xavier is going to be very good, even Butler got a couple good transfers, etc. etc. Really almost the entire league from top to bottom, yes including Georgetown, has improved.

One thing that will hurt this team imo is the lack of *quality* depth. Even if we get waivers for Q and Heath there are some real gaps in the rotation. For example, if Q plays the 5 and Akok plays the 4, who is backing either of them up? Hopefully Mutombo makes strides in the offseason but our player development (particularly in the weight room) appears to be lacking behind others in the league from what I have heard. Bass will also have to play a decent amount of minutes at the 4 in all likelihood as an unheralded freshman which is a lot to ask even if he is a promising player, which I think he is. We don't really have a prototypical 3 and will have to play a lot of three guard lineups despite only really having four playable guards.

The other major limitation I see with this team is inefficiency. Dante, while an absolute bulldog and fierce competitor, is a brutally inefficient point guard. The transfer Spears was about as inefficient as they come playing for Duquesne. Brandon Murray also had a pretty far below par efficiency rating last year and he's probably the guy we need to be our star. Heath wasn't the most efficient player at ASU or BC either but I think he'll be fine. None of these guard transfers appear to be distributors, and putting low efficiency players in an environment where they will have a much higher usage is not exactly a recipe for success.

This team obviously is more talented than last year's disaster, but I think playing competitive games and winning 5 or more in the league is a step in the right direction. This is also a great example of why not firing Ewing was problematic, because we can still finish in last place and it will still be an improvement, but asking any coach to take this team through the deepest Big East since realignment into the tournament is a pretty tough ask imo.

I think you're short changing Mozone (a second team all big south performer) and Eziwiro to an extent. I think if Bass is playing much something has gone pretty wrong. I'd expect Mozone to get a good amount of 4 minutes.

I could be short selling Mozone, but either way I don’t think he’s a 4 at all. He’s listed at 6’6” and in the limited tape I’ve seen of him he looks more like a big guard than anything else

[daveg023]

May 23, 2022 20:22:19 GMT -5 thedragon said:

My bar: Tournament team (which feels very odd to say after 0-19. Iowa State did it last year after an 0 for conference season. The talent on paper is a tournament team. Ewings seat * should be * scorching hot. Tournament or bust.

The University: Who the hell knows. But Ewing has gone all in on remaking the roster. Which makes me feel like he knows the leash is very short.

Murray, Heath, Akok and Q are high quality-high major portal pickups. And guys like Spears and Mozone are very interesting talents who will have to acclimate to the level.

IF...I said IF...because we really haven't seen it in 5 years - Ewing can get the team chemistry on track I think this will be a much more enjoyable season than I expected.

I feel like I'd even go deeper:

My bar (ie, enough to keep Ewing another year): .500 or better in the BE
School's bar: Anything better than last year is progress and they can avoid paying a buyout for another year
My prediction / realistic expectations: 6-14 to 8-12 type team in the conference, and still playing Wednesday

I think the talent is better, but honestly the talent is no better than some of Ewing's other teams, none of whom finished above .500 in the conference, and arguably this may be the toughest year yet in the BE during the Ewing era.  I'm not sure I can be as optimistic to think this team has at large written all over it.   That's a big leap for an 0-20 team to take over one season, no matter how much the roster has turned over.  

If you think about it, is this team any better on paper than two years ago?  2/5 of the starting lineup is the same (Harris & Wahab, granted older now) and the other 3 spots might be less talented overall than that version: Blair/Pickett/Bile > Heath/Akok/Murray?  

[wsdhoya]

Ok revision to something I put in another thread. In terms of guys I see as being capable Big East level players on a winning team this year (not saying they can't become that in future years), I have this:

PG: none (possibly Anglin, I'm high on him, but he's 18 years old)
SG: Murray, Heath
SF: Mozone
PF: Akok
C: Qudus

Other guys like Mutombo have the potential to be serviceable bench pieces and having that will be so critical to us. I stand by my assertion that Ewing is still recruiting inefficient players that tend to come from non winning programs, two things that go exactly against what successful transfers tend to be, but there's enough capable bodies to win games which there flat out wasn't last year.

[hoyaatheart55]

Follow up

It is not my prediction that we will get an at large bid. It is my bar for what Ewing has to do at minimum to keep his job another year.

As of right now I wouldn’t predict a tournament berth. I’m not very confident that Coach can get these guys to gel enough for us to get to that level. I hope to be proven wrong.

[thedragon]

May 23, 2022 21:05:26 GMT -5 daveg023 said:

May 23, 2022 20:22:19 GMT -5 thedragon said:

My bar: Tournament team (which feels very odd to say after 0-19. Iowa State did it last year after an 0 for conference season. The talent on paper is a tournament team. Ewings seat * should be * scorching hot. Tournament or bust.

The University: Who the hell knows. But Ewing has gone all in on remaking the roster. Which makes me feel like he knows the leash is very short.

Murray, Heath, Akok and Q are high quality-high major portal pickups. And guys like Spears and Mozone are very interesting talents who will have to acclimate to the level.

IF...I said IF...because we really haven't seen it in 5 years - Ewing can get the team chemistry on track I think this will be a much more enjoyable season than I expected.

I feel like I'd even go deeper:

My bar (ie, enough to keep Ewing another year): .500 or better in the BE
School's bar: Anything better than last year is progress and they can avoid paying a buyout for another year
My prediction / realistic expectations: 6-14 to 8-12 type team in the conference, and still playing Wednesday

I think the talent is better, but honestly the talent is no better than some of Ewing's other teams, none of whom finished above .500 in the conference, and arguably this may be the toughest year yet in the BE during the Ewing era.  I'm not sure I can be as optimistic to think this team has at large written all over it.   That's a big leap for an 0-20 team to take over one season, no matter how much the roster has turned over.  

If you think about it, is this team any better on paper than two years ago?  2/5 of the starting lineup is the same (Harris & Wahab, granted older now) and the other 3 spots might be less talented overall than that version: Blair/Pickett/Bile > Heath/Akok/Murray?  

Agree with just about everything you've said except the last part. I think Heath/Akok/Murray are more talented than Blair/Pickett/Bile

[hibernatinghoyafan]

Tournament or bust. If we were looking at that roster at another BE team we’d probably have them in the top 25. Starting line up is:
1) Dante (weakest starting spot but still a BET MOP)
2) Heath - high major starting guard, could have transferred almost anywhere and started as a nice complimentary piece
3) Murray - 1st team all BE (top 100)
4) Akok - top 50 kid coming off injury but fully healthy
5) Q - top 100 kid and a proven commodity at the high major level
6) Bristol - all MEAC FOY
7) Mutombo - top 100, 4*
8) Anglin - top 100, 4*
9) Mozone - 22 year old, 2nd team all Big South
10) Riley - top 115, 4*
11) Spears - proven mid-major+ freshman
12) Ezewiro - project, spot minutes
13) Bass - project, spot minutes

That’s 6 4* kids, 1 high major proven starter, 2 mid major+ stars, 2 projects, and 2 starting pgs that are inconsistent but talented. That’s as good a roster since 2012-2013. We haven’t had 6 4* kids on the roster since 2014-2015 but I think the complimentary, veteran pieces are clearly better on this team.

Top 5 in conference and ranked at some point is my absolute floor.

[daytonahoya31]

Talent wise, this is an NCAA Tournament roster. Without question. Obviously winning has a lot more to do than talent. But strictly talent, this is a deep roster. So, for me, this year is about Ewing. He doesn’t have many deficiencies in the roster that he and nickleberry built. Time to coach it up

[wsdhoya]

May 23, 2022 21:26:47 GMT -5 hibernatinghoyafan said:

Tournament or bust. If we were looking at that roster at another BE team we’d probably have them in the top 25. Starting line up is:
1) Dante (weakest starting spot but still a BET MOP)
2) Heath - high major starting guard, could have transferred almost anywhere and started as a nice complimentary piece
3) Murray - 1st team all BE (top 100)
4) Akok - top 50 kid coming off injury but fully healthy
5) Q - top 100 kid and a proven commodity at the high major level
6) Bristol - all MEAC FOY
7) Mutombo - top 100, 4*
8) Anglin - top 100, 4*
9) Mozone - 22 year old, 2nd team all Big South
10) Riley - top 115, 4*
11) Spears - proven mid-major+ freshman
12) Ezewiro - project, spot minutes
13) Bass - project, spot minutes

That’s 6 4* kids, 1 high major proven starter, 2 mid major+ stars, 2 projects, and 2 starting pgs that are inconsistent but talented. That’s as good a roster since 2012-2013. We haven’t had 6 4* kids on the roster since 2014-2015 but I think the complimentary, veteran pieces are clearly better on this team.

Top 5 in conference and ranked at some point is my absolute floor.

Alright come on now this is almost as laughable as when people said last year's team would have a winning record in the league.  How long will you use the "but he's a BET MOP" line for Dante?  Even if it was a legitimate BET in a normal season where Villanova hadn't just lost their best player and starting PG, surely two entire seasons of sample size is better than four days, right?  Spears is a "proven" mid major??? He shot 36% from the floor for a god awful team lol what are you talking about?  I wasn't on this board when Georgetown was good, but you must have thought we were better than the Dream Team if you think all this about our current roster.

[tashoya]

It used to be the Tombs and Third Edition. But, I'm old so one of those is gone.

[hoyazeke]

May 23, 2022 21:26:47 GMT -5 hibernatinghoyafan said:

Tournament or bust. If we were looking at that roster at another BE team we’d probably have them in the top 25. Starting line up is:
1) Dante (weakest starting spot but still a BET MOP)
2) Heath - high major starting guard, could have transferred almost anywhere and started as a nice complimentary piece
3) Murray - 1st team all BE (top 100)
4) Akok - top 50 kid coming off injury but fully healthy
5) Q - top 100 kid and a proven commodity at the high major level
6) Bristol - all MEAC FOY
7) Mutombo - top 100, 4*
8) Anglin - top 100, 4*
9) Mozone - 22 year old, 2nd team all Big South
10) Riley - top 115, 4*
11) Spears - proven mid-major+ freshman
12) Ezewiro - project, spot minutes
13) Bass - project, spot minutes

That’s 6 4* kids, 1 high major proven starter, 2 mid major+ stars, 2 projects, and 2 starting pgs that are inconsistent but talented. That’s as good a roster since 2012-2013. We haven’t had 6 4* kids on the roster since 2014-2015 but I think the complimentary, veteran pieces are clearly better on this team.

Top 5 in conference and ranked at some point is my absolute floor.

I'm really hoping Ezewiro eats into a lot of Q's minutes at the 5 and backs up Akok at the 4. I don't expect Q or Ryan to improve much at PnR defense which means they will have to dominate on O to warrant minutes.
I have us as a Top 6 BE team and in the tourney. If not Ewing would have proven the "Ewing Haters" right....

[TC]

There is no bar. If someone doesn't get fired for 0-20, there are no performance metrics.