madgesiq92
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Post by madgesiq92 on Apr 4, 2023 13:34:33 GMT -5
The 2nd UCONN game is all the evidence a coach needs that Primo can be reigned in. I don't think Primo will do that every game but I can see him being less 1v1. If what I heard about second UCONN game comes out--you wouldn't look at it or him as favorably.
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Omega
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Post by Omega on Apr 4, 2023 14:51:41 GMT -5
At the risk of being blunt, we could not have been much worse with Primo on the bench. Maybe Primo would have adjusted his play with a benching, maybe not. But it sends the wrong message to the rest of the team to do nothing. And again, the question itself is improper. It's not a bilateral choice of (a) benching Primo completely, and (b) playing other people. If you benched him, the goal is to make him play better or adjust his behavior. Most kids will respond to sitting on the bench by changing their play to fit their coach's goals. And, if they don't, you didn't recruit well or you're not a good teacher/motivator. No your retort is improper--the question is who do u replace him with? Hoyas would have beaten St Johns had he not gotten hurt. For Those few minutes he sat on the bench we all saw what happened. So again, to teach this lesson, who would u replace him with?
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Apr 4, 2023 15:08:13 GMT -5
And again, the question itself is improper. It's not a bilateral choice of (a) benching Primo completely, and (b) playing other people. If you benched him, the goal is to make him play better or adjust his behavior. Most kids will respond to sitting on the bench by changing their play to fit their coach's goals. And, if they don't, you didn't recruit well or you're not a good teacher/motivator. No your retort is improper--the question is who do u replace him with? Hoyas would have beaten St Johns had he not gotten hurt. For Those few minutes he sat on the bench we all saw what happened. So again, to teach this lesson, who would u replace him with? How about anyone else? They were as bad as they could be with him so what’s the harm in trying something new? It’s not like we’d be messing with success here.
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DallasHoya
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Post by DallasHoya on Apr 4, 2023 15:16:27 GMT -5
This takes Patrick Ewing's agency out completely, though. Clearly, Spears has a significant role in the way he played, but if Ewing did not like it, he should have taught him or instructed him to play different. One of two things is true - Ewing let him do it or Ewing instructed him not to do it, Spears did it anyway, and Ewing still played him 37 minutes a game. Either way, Ewing has culpability for failing kids like Spears. Not really, Ewing can be culpable without blaming everything under the sun on him. It’s pretty obvious that Spears style is ball dominant (10 dribble), score first, pass last mentality that has always been with him. That’s really hard to change. Kyrie Irving has been like that his whole career which is why he couldn’t coexist with LeBron and has had problems at every stop and now with Doncic in Dallas. That was a horrible trade by Cuban which will doom Dallas for years to come.As a Mavs season ticket holder, I couldn't agree more. If Kyrie signs elsewhere this offseason, which I assume he will, Cuban and the Mavs will have lost or given up from their 2022 conference finals team: Brunson - 2nd best player on that team Dimwiddie - 3rd best player on that team Finney-Smith - 4th best player on that team A #1 draft pick in return for ..... Absolutely nothing.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 4, 2023 16:15:17 GMT -5
And again, the question itself is improper. It's not a bilateral choice of (a) benching Primo completely, and (b) playing other people. If you benched him, the goal is to make him play better or adjust his behavior. Most kids will respond to sitting on the bench by changing their play to fit their coach's goals. And, if they don't, you didn't recruit well or you're not a good teacher/motivator. No your retort is improper--the question is who do u replace him with? Hoyas would have beaten St Johns had he not gotten hurt. For Those few minutes he sat on the bench we all saw what happened. So again, to teach this lesson, who would u replace him with? You're missing the point. You replace him with Anglin, Bristol, etc. Again, the point isn't to replace him fully, it's to guide Spears in the right direction. That's what effective coaches do; Ewing was not capable of it, and that much is obvious. But, luckily we have Cooley now, and we are in a much better position.
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Post by cgallstar02 on Apr 4, 2023 16:19:27 GMT -5
Don't think that this kid is uncontrollable, but rather just someone who needs a coach who will establish some boundaries and enforce them. Recall thinking that both Akinjo and McClung were incredibly selfish and yet both thrived elsewhere, particularly Akinjo. Too many Hoya "stars" were given freedom to play selfish and undisciplined ball. Would not be surprised if both Spears and Murray follow in the footsteps of Akinjo and McClung and become more effective players at their next stop. That said, I think it is best for them and the program that they are moving on. Akinjo and McClung had similar stats at their new schools. They were pretty much the same player as they were at G-town. Caliber of team and teammates matter. If someone averaged 20 and 5 at Howard and then transferred to Duke and had similar stats, are you really going to say they were the same player? Baylor was the #1 team in the nation for a few weeks with Akinjo... Texas Tech was in the top 25 the entire season with Mac. Arizona wasn't great, but was still much better than Akinjo's previous Georgetown team. Charlie Moore transferred 4 times in his career and went from averaging 12 at Cal, 3 at KU, 15 at Depaul, and 12 at Miami. So did he get worse at KU then better at Depaul then worse at Miami... or were those averages relative to how talented each team was? As for Primo, the aforementioned Charlie Moore's time at KU is pretty indicative of how things would go for Primo if he actually went to KU. He would be glued to the bench and relegated to garbage time at best unless he made some massive improvements in his game. In regards to Ewing benching him... he didn't need to bench him for long stretches... if he takes a couple bad shots in a row, take him out the game, tell him what he did wrong, then put him back in a minute or two later. If he does it again, do it again. It doesn't need to be an all or nothing approach... however that was Ewing's style... he either gave you free reign with no repercussions, or benched you for 10-15 minute stretches if he didn't like something you did.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 4, 2023 16:36:24 GMT -5
Also, looking at points scored or average points scored as a metric to evaluate a player, without looking at other stats, can be highly misleading. For example, Georgetown played at an above-average pace this year, which yields more possessions, and thus, more opportunities to score. Had Spears played exactly the same way on a slower-paced team like Virginia or Villanova, his average points scored per game would have been lower.
Looking at efficiency (which takes out tempo) shows that Akinjo actually did improve after he left Georgetown. At Georgetown, his offensive efficiency ratings were 100.5 as a freshman and 96.9 as a sophomore. At Arizona his junior year, it was 110.2. That's WAY more efficient. Also, Akinjo's three point shooting improved substantially at Arizona. Akinjo's efficiency actually declined at Baylor, but he was still better than at Georgetown.
As for McClung, he also improved. His efficiency at Georgetown was 98.1 his freshman year, and 104.5 sophomore year. At Texas Tech under Beard, that went up to 107.7, and both his 2 point and three point percentages went up.
So, if you're talking offense, one can make a strong argument that Akinjo and McClung both improved. To say they were the same player as at Georgetown is just untrue.
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Post by cgallstar02 on Apr 4, 2023 17:02:09 GMT -5
Also, looking at points scored or average points scored as a metric to evaluate a player, without looking at other stats, can be highly misleading. For example, Georgetown played at an above-average pace this year, which yields more possessions, and thus, more opportunities to score. Had Spears played exactly the same way on a slower-paced team like Virginia or Villanova, his average points scored per game would have been lower. Looking at efficiency (which takes out tempo) shows that Akinjo actually did improve after he left Georgetown. At Georgetown, his offensive efficiency ratings were 100.5 as a freshman and 96.9 as a sophomore. At Arizona his junior year, it was 110.2. That's WAY more efficient. Also, Akinjo's three point shooting improved substantially at Arizona. Akinjo's efficiency actually declined at Baylor, but he was still better than at Georgetown. As for McClung, he also improved. His efficiency at Georgetown was 98.1 his freshman year, and 104.5 sophomore year. At Texas Tech under Beard, that went up to 107.7, and both his 2 point and three point percentages went up. So, if you're talking offense, one can make a strong argument that Akinjo and McClung both improved. To say they were the same player as at Georgetown is just untrue. Agreed, Georgetown played a run & gun style where defense was an afterthought. Tech's primary focus was on defense and slowing the game down... on offense they would rarely take quick shots and would tend to use most of the shot clock. This effects not only points but less points means less assists, less shots means less rebounds. Wahab is a much better example of someone who didn't improve, but even that can be equated more so to how he was used. PE was probably the only coach in the Power 6 that would've ran an offense through a mediocre post up player. He was never going to get that role at Maryland. Then when he returned, his role regressed because even though his previous Georgetown team was more talented, the guys they had were more versatile, and better team players. He returned to a team with three ball dominant guards whose only interest was finding their own shot.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 4, 2023 17:10:21 GMT -5
They were the same player. Fall over yourselves and spin it all you want.
Akinjo was Big East rookie of the year. People forget because they hate Ewing so much.
Ewing gave McClung a chance and a showcase. Played him at his best position only for the so-called great Chris Beard to do the same. But texas tech was a family, so Mac was SOOOOOOO much better.
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TC
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Post by TC on Apr 4, 2023 17:29:02 GMT -5
They were the same player. Fall over yourselves and spin it all you want. Akinjo was Big East rookie of the year. People forget because they hate Ewing so much. Ewing gave McClung a chance and a showcase. Played him at his best position only for the so-called great Chris Beard to do the same. But texas tech was a family, so Mac was SOOOOOOO much better. Mac was better at Texas Tech and people should feel bad that the program bungled the McClung relationship so badly that the only person who could publicly acknowledge the dunk championship was Crouch. Running a program isn't just about giving someone minutes and yelling MOVE and REBOUND a bunch. They screwed up the Akinjo relationship just as badly with the transfer announcement that put Akinjo in the same announcement as LeBlanc.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 4, 2023 17:42:04 GMT -5
Mac and Akinjo had their respective limitations and ceilings. They were shown here and their other destinations.
But Primo Spears, yeah.
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iowa80
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Post by iowa80 on Apr 4, 2023 17:43:13 GMT -5
They were the same player. Fall over yourselves and spin it all you want. Akinjo was Big East rookie of the year. People forget because they hate Ewing so much. Ewing gave McClung a chance and a showcase. Played him at his best position only for the so-called great Chris Beard to do the same. But texas tech was a family, so Mac was SOOOOOOO much better. I don't understand what "same player" means. Whether or not he executed that role, it seems clear that Akinjo was Ewing's choice for PG. And Mac was perfectly capable of playing the "2." How that set with Mac, I don't know, but this is probably another instance where the proverbial failure to communicate was a factor. Sorry for the slight diversion Primo.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 4, 2023 17:45:29 GMT -5
They were the same player. Fall over yourselves and spin it all you want. Akinjo was Big East rookie of the year. People forget because they hate Ewing so much. Ewing gave McClung a chance and a showcase. Played him at his best position only for the so-called great Chris Beard to do the same. But texas tech was a family, so Mac was SOOOOOOO much better. I don't understand what "same player" means. Whether or not he executed that role, it seems clear that Akinjo was Ewing's choice for PG. And Mac was perfectly capable of playing the "2." How that set with Mac, I don't know, but this is probably another instance where the proverbial failure to communicate was a factor. Sorry for the slight diversion Primo. You are smart. You understand. Primo Spears. He'll find a place somewhere. Coach Cooley is here now. Can't blame Ewing anymore which is nice. Breath of fresh air, but bad habits are still hard to break for some.
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Omega
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Post by Omega on Apr 4, 2023 18:09:20 GMT -5
Also, looking at points scored or average points scored as a metric to evaluate a player, without looking at other stats, can be highly misleading. For example, Georgetown played at an above-average pace this year, which yields more possessions, and thus, more opportunities to score. Had Spears played exactly the same way on a slower-paced team like Virginia or Villanova, his average points scored per game would have been lower. Looking at efficiency (which takes out tempo) shows that Akinjo actually did improve after he left Georgetown. At Georgetown, his offensive efficiency ratings were 100.5 as a freshman and 96.9 as a sophomore. At Arizona his junior year, it was 110.2. That's WAY more efficient. Also, Akinjo's three point shooting improved substantially at Arizona. Akinjo's efficiency actually declined at Baylor, but he was still better than at Georgetown. As for McClung, he also improved. His efficiency at Georgetown was 98.1 his freshman year, and 104.5 sophomore year. At Texas Tech under Beard, that went up to 107.7, and both his 2 point and three point percentages went up. So, if you're talking offense, one can make a strong argument that Akinjo and McClung both improved. To say they were the same player as at Georgetown is just untrue. Which metric takes into account maturity? You would expect a player to get better between their freshman season and senior season?
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Post by cgallstar02 on Apr 4, 2023 18:12:54 GMT -5
They were the same player. Fall over yourselves and spin it all you want. Akinjo was Big East rookie of the year. People forget because they hate Ewing so much. Ewing gave McClung a chance and a showcase. Played him at his best position only for the so-called great Chris Beard to do the same. But texas tech was a family, so Mac was SOOOOOOO much better. What's the spin? It's facts. Are you saying if Primo went to KU and put up 16 and 5 for a national title contending top 10 team, that you're stance would be that he didn't improve as a player and he's the same guy he was at Georgetown simply because his scoring and assist numbers were the same? Numbers without wins are hollow. No one is calling LBJ, Kobe or Mike the GOAT if they all have the same numbers they currently have but no rings. If Mac and James stayed at Georgetown and averaged 20 a piece on a sub .500 team, did they really get better, or did they just get more shot attempts as a result of playing on a bad team for a coach that lets them do what they want? The purpose of playing the game is to win right? If you're not winning how are you improving?
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 4, 2023 18:20:03 GMT -5
lol
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hoyas315
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Post by hoyas315 on Apr 4, 2023 18:27:20 GMT -5
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Apr 4, 2023 20:16:18 GMT -5
You would expect a player to get better between their freshman season and senior season? Not under the Thompson/Ewing debacle. I expected a player to leave after the freshman or sophomore season.
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iowa80
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Post by iowa80 on Apr 4, 2023 20:19:50 GMT -5
If he gets starter minutes at any of those schools except F St., it will be a surprise to me.
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thedragon
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Post by thedragon on Apr 4, 2023 20:45:51 GMT -5
I got dumped on during the season by a few posters for saying that under a better coach (I believed I used Pitino/Peyton Siva at the time as an example) that Primo could be a great college player. Obviously this is far from coming to fruition - but the schools who are interested should show where talent evaluators think his ceiling is.
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