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Post by professorhoya on Apr 13, 2021 11:05:42 GMT -5
Colorado had 4 3 pt specialists on the floor at all times. *and sometimes even 5 when they put Walker at center. What did Florida State do to stop all those three point specialist??? don't you remember they had their center go out and guard McKinley Wright to use his length to bother him. I don't think they played zone. *on top of the fact that they were a giant team from 1 to 5.
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Post by janestis308 on Apr 13, 2021 11:11:04 GMT -5
Which big centers are you referring to? King is 6' 9" 225 lbs Jeremiah Robinson Earl is 6' 9" 230 Christian Bishop (granted he's gone) is 6' 7" 220 lbs Adama Sanogo is 6' 9" 240 lbs I Isaih Moore (granted also gone) is 6' 10" 205 lbs Zach Freemantle 6' 9" 225 lbs Yes there are guys like Obiagu (Seton Hall) and Watson (Prov) that are bigger than most but ita myth if the thought is every successful big east team has or had a 7 foot 250 lb center as a prominent piece. King isn't a small ball center he IS the prototypical center in today's game... Freemantle is listed at 6'9"? He's got to be taller than that or King is smaller than he's listed because when I look at them they don't seem to be the same height. Connecticut's Sanogo is really a forward and their center is 6'11 plus they have Whaley who is also a forward but in being forwards both Sanogo and Whaley are big guys with long arms and they seem bigger than King to me. King seems like a power forward/small forward to me in comparison to Whaley and Sanogo. Jerimiah is not a center, everyone knows that. He's a forward. Now unless we play forwards and guards and no centers, I guess that would be okay although I don't agree with it. So yeah, if you're saying the game is going in the direction of no true centers then King who isn't a center will fit right in. I think it's a big mistake but hey. HA well yes if we are going to go by what you "think" everyone's heights are then yes there is no reason to have this conversation...I won't pull out facts next time... Your statement was he can't physically cover other centers in the Big East. I'm simply responding to that. What I gave you for king and fremantle is factually accurate. Whether Robinson-Earl is really a Forward I am not arguing, but he plays the 5 on their roster 95% of the time and his measurements I gave are again factually accurate. The 6' 11" center at Uconn has a name it's Carlton and he plays 10 minutes a game...he is not a starter or very productive for that matter and sure Tim can cover him the other 10 minutes a game. King has the same size as Whaley, sanogo and Polley...that's again not me arguing that's me giving facts off their roster listing. Again if we're going to go by what your eyes tell you in terms of everyone's size then yes your always going to be accurate.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2021 11:11:54 GMT -5
What did Florida State do to stop all those three point specialist??? don't you remember they had their center go out and guard McKinley Wright to use his length to bother him. I don't think they played zone. *on top of the fact that they were a giant team from 1 to 5. Yes, I do remember the center stopping McKinley Wright's penetration and that did have a lot to do with it. But, I don't think they played man to man for the most part but I could be wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2021 11:18:46 GMT -5
Freemantle is listed at 6'9"? He's got to be taller than that or King is smaller than he's listed because when I look at them they don't seem to be the same height. Connecticut's Sanogo is really a forward and their center is 6'11 plus they have Whaley who is also a forward but in being forwards both Sanogo and Whaley are big guys with long arms and they seem bigger than King to me. King seems like a power forward/small forward to me in comparison to Whaley and Sanogo. Jerimiah is not a center, everyone knows that. He's a forward. Now unless we play forwards and guards and no centers, I guess that would be okay although I don't agree with it. So yeah, if you're saying the game is going in the direction of no true centers then King who isn't a center will fit right in. I think it's a big mistake but hey. HA well yes if we are going to go by what you "think" everyone's heights are then yes there is no reason to have this conversation...I won't pull out facts next time... Your statement was he can't physically cover other centers in the Big East. I'm simply responding to that. What I gave you for king and fremantle is factually accurate. Whether Robinson-Earl is really a Forward I am not arguing, but he plays the 5 on their roster 95% of the time and his measurements I gave are again factually accurate. The 6' 11" center at Uconn has a name it's Carlton and he plays 10 minutes a game...he is not a starter or very productive for that matter and sure Tim can cover him the other 10 minutes a game. King has the same size as Whaley, sanogo and Polley...that's again not me arguing that's me giving facts off their roster listing. Again if we're going to go by what your eyes tell you in terms of everyone's size then yes your always going to be accurate. Dude, I saw King on video playing against mostly other schools in his conference and not against Big East centers which I believe are a lot bigger than he is. He looks smaller than Freemantle and we all know that sometimes they exaggerate the height of the players. Now I just looked at his height and weigh and he is LISTED at 6'9" 225. Sanogo as you pointed out is 240 pounds. You honestly think that King can handle Sanogo? Q had a hard time handling Sanogo and most of the time he was unsuccessful and you think King is going to fair better? You got to be kidding. King is a glorified power forward. He's more like a big small forward.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 13, 2021 11:24:09 GMT -5
Sanogo was a traditional big man in style of play even though he is short for a center. And he could get just about any shot he wanted against Q in the paint. UCONN had other guys who could get any shot they wanted against the other 4 G-town players, so they didn't have to go to Sanogo that much.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 13, 2021 11:33:51 GMT -5
Q had alot of problems with space eaters like Watson, JRE, etc. In fact Tim did better against those guys. Part of it was Q being undersized and part of it was his lack of aggression. So I don't see this as being an issue. Q was not a perfect player, but he was one of the better young big men in the Big East, and was improving. King will bring some things to the table that Q struggled with, but not having someone like Q is a big loss. The staff will need to make some other adjustments to the team next year in style of play to make up for Q's loss. I think they can do that and play a little different but I would not minimize the loss. Care to be specific about the “loss”? What are you referring to? Defense? Offense? What do you think Q offers that King doesn’t? Not trying to push you it’s just very unclear what you’re talking about
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 13, 2021 11:35:23 GMT -5
I like the addition of King, but no way I take him over Q. So you’d rather have Q, Tim and Ryan at the 5 with Billingsley or Sibley starting at the 4 than Tim and Ryan at the 5 and King at the 4?
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Post by professorhoya on Apr 13, 2021 11:37:22 GMT -5
HA well yes if we are going to go by what you "think" everyone's heights are then yes there is no reason to have this conversation...I won't pull out facts next time... Your statement was he can't physically cover other centers in the Big East. I'm simply responding to that. What I gave you for king and fremantle is factually accurate. Whether Robinson-Earl is really a Forward I am not arguing, but he plays the 5 on their roster 95% of the time and his measurements I gave are again factually accurate. The 6' 11" center at Uconn has a name it's Carlton and he plays 10 minutes a game...he is not a starter or very productive for that matter and sure Tim can cover him the other 10 minutes a game. King has the same size as Whaley, sanogo and Polley...that's again not me arguing that's me giving facts off their roster listing. Again if we're going to go by what your eyes tell you in terms of everyone's size then yes your always going to be accurate. Dude, I saw King on video playing against mostly other schools in his conference and not against Big East centers which I believe are a lot bigger than he is. He looks smaller than Freemantle and we all know that sometimes they exaggerate the height of the players. Now I just looked at his height and weigh and he is LISTED at 6'9" 225. Sanogo as you pointed out is 240 pounds. You honestly think that King can handle Sanogo? Q had a hard time handling Sanogo and most of the time he was unsuccessful and you think King is going to fair better? You got to be kidding. King is a glorified power forward. He's more like a big small forward. Honestly, Q's always looked about 6-9 or a short 6-10 to me. And very slender with little muscle. So I don't think he's that much different than the King, who is also more explosive. I don't know what there wing spans are but the fact that Q has trouble dunking while the King seems to be able to dunk easily seem to indicate that maybe King is longer. If 6-7 Bile can come in and play center (because Q can't cover people) then I see no reason that 6-9 King can't.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 13, 2021 11:39:19 GMT -5
Q was not a perfect player, but he was one of the better young big men in the Big East, and was improving. King will bring some things to the table that Q struggled with, but not having someone like Q is a big loss. The staff will need to make some other adjustments to the team next year in style of play to make up for Q's loss. I think they can do that and play a little different but I would not minimize the loss. This!! The rim protection, rebounding, and scoring inside will not be replaced by King and is a big loss for us. We can't do anything about Q leaving, but let's not get crazy here. King is no Q.
Q is not even the Q you’re describing. As others pointed out, for every block shot he gave up uncontested rebounds chasing blocks. That’s kind of who he was as a player at this stage in his development, still very much learning. Making a good play, and then giving it back the next. He was incredibly productive for us but that had much more to do with Ewing putting him in positions to produce than Q and his natural ability. I think he has great tools, but he still hasn’t learned to use them correctly. He makes easily correctable mistakes left and right, on offense and defense, which indicates there may be a block or limit to growth for him in certain areas. Maybe the game hasn’t shown down for him yet, but either way he didn’t play to his strengths and never used his length like he could’ve. Both on offense and defense. Ewing will put King in positions to be even more successful, you can take that to the bank.
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Post by janestis308 on Apr 13, 2021 11:39:47 GMT -5
HA well yes if we are going to go by what you "think" everyone's heights are then yes there is no reason to have this conversation...I won't pull out facts next time... Your statement was he can't physically cover other centers in the Big East. I'm simply responding to that. What I gave you for king and fremantle is factually accurate. Whether Robinson-Earl is really a Forward I am not arguing, but he plays the 5 on their roster 95% of the time and his measurements I gave are again factually accurate. The 6' 11" center at Uconn has a name it's Carlton and he plays 10 minutes a game...he is not a starter or very productive for that matter and sure Tim can cover him the other 10 minutes a game. King has the same size as Whaley, sanogo and Polley...that's again not me arguing that's me giving facts off their roster listing. Again if we're going to go by what your eyes tell you in terms of everyone's size then yes your always going to be accurate. Dude, I saw King on video playing against mostly other schools in his conference and not against Big East centers which I believe are a lot bigger than he is. He looks smaller than Freemantle and we all know that sometimes they exaggerate the height of the players. Now I just looked at his height and weigh and he is LISTED at 6'9" 225. Sanogo as you pointed out is 240 pounds. You honestly think that King can handle Sanogo? Q had a hard time handling Sanogo and most of the time he was unsuccessful and you think King is going to fair better? You got to be kidding. King is a glorified power forward. He's more like a big small forward. Dude then I guess you missed him scoring 25 - 13 rebounds 4 steal and a block against Xavier early this past season. All that and the only guy over 6' 7" that saw any type of significant minutes on his team. When this kid starts at the 5 next season or sees most of his time at the 5 then I fully expect you to rip into Ewing....look forward to it.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 13, 2021 11:41:15 GMT -5
That wasn't an option. However Q can't defend the 3. That killed us against Colorado. He wasn't the only one not defending the 3. The whole team looked 2 steps off that game. We don't even get to Colorado without Q. He was playing great for us down the stretch. That game was actually about Q not knowing how to stunt AT ALL in pick and roll coverage. With his length there is no excuse for him to let his man roll free uncontested to the basket without recovering. It’s literally two steps between the stunt and the rim for him on defense yet somehow he let his man break free over and over again. It was high school level lack of awareness. WCAC kids know better...
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 13, 2021 11:45:21 GMT -5
Per 40 minutes last year: King: 1.7 BPG, 2.1 SPG Wahab: 2.3 BPG, 0.6 SPG Personally, I'd rather have the guy who can be counted on to be where he needs to be on the floor and does a better job disrupting passing lanes, getting deflections, rotating when we switch/help, etc. than the guy hunting blocks at the cost of everything else. This 100%. I like Q and was hoping he’d improve but there are only so many times you can catch the ball in the lane and immediately bring it below your waist before it becomes apparent maybe you don’t have the ability to play another way.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 13, 2021 11:46:59 GMT -5
The upside of the King is that it allows us to play more positionless basketball. The King can play either center or power forward (maybe even some small forward depending on matchups). Q could only play center. So the King gives us alot of roster flexibility which allows for matchups and more playing time for everyone. I think if Bile comes back, look out, we will be a very tough out. I see alot of full court press and trapping out of next year's team. I hope so. We should have been ding more of it the past few seasons. I hate how easy we make it for the opposing offense to run their stuff. You’re contradicting yourself. Go back bad read press from last summer. Ewing wanted Q to be able to play the 4, but he couldn’t. We weren’t able to play more position less in the past because of the player you’re still wishing was on our team.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 13, 2021 11:51:34 GMT -5
Focusing on the Colorado game isn't super useful in my opinion. Tim was on the floor for a bunch of the Walker 3s as well, I'm not putting that game on Q at all. But look at the teams who had the highest adjusted offensive efficiency against us this year, across the whole season: St Johns: 113.5 (2nd meeting) Villanova: 110.9 (2nd meeting) UConn: 121.9 (2nd meeting) Colorado: 116.3 My threshold was over 110, Navy was right there at 110 but I've blacked that game out. If there's a trend that sticks out, three of those four teams (excluding UConn) had a center who could pull our guy away from the basket. Yes I agree, I don't want to pile on Q just because he left, and I don't want to annoint King a well, King, before he plays a game. But I don't think it's controversial that to say with Tim still in the fold with King, you at least have more options for different styles of play. Good stuff! Plus King fouled out of 8 games and had 4 fouls in 6 others I think, so I hope nobody thinks he'll be much better playing in the BE against far better skilled players. I hope nobody thinks foul rate is directly correlated to level of competition..
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 13, 2021 11:55:56 GMT -5
I mean the King is a bigger Bile. So a Bigger Swiss Army Knife. How can you not like him. No I didn't say I didn't like him professor. Anyone who can fill Bile's shoes, you know I'm on it! No doubt about it! I'm just bummed that everyone thinks that King is the replacement for Q and everyone seem to want to point to one fatal weakness of the team (guarding the three point line) and saying it's all Q's fault. I think coach should have played zone against the teams that were knocking down and counting on three's and we would be having a different conversation about Q. But nawww, I like King just not playing at the five, that's all. Coach did play zones at time to cover Q and Tim to get that edge (how do you think we made it through the BET? Problem is you can’t change the whole defensive identity to accommodate one player when the rest is clicking. You can do it for spurts and sequences here and there but not for extended stretches. Despite limitations to Ryan’s foot speed, I think he’ll be even more switchable than Q was on D because of his higher BB iq alone. Add King switching to that defense and we get to keep building on the model Ewing started to solidify post Covid break. The defense that was top 30-50 iirc during that stretch.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 13, 2021 11:57:48 GMT -5
HA well yes if we are going to go by what you "think" everyone's heights are then yes there is no reason to have this conversation...I won't pull out facts next time... Your statement was he can't physically cover other centers in the Big East. I'm simply responding to that. What I gave you for king and fremantle is factually accurate. Whether Robinson-Earl is really a Forward I am not arguing, but he plays the 5 on their roster 95% of the time and his measurements I gave are again factually accurate. The 6' 11" center at Uconn has a name it's Carlton and he plays 10 minutes a game...he is not a starter or very productive for that matter and sure Tim can cover him the other 10 minutes a game. King has the same size as Whaley, sanogo and Polley...that's again not me arguing that's me giving facts off their roster listing. Again if we're going to go by what your eyes tell you in terms of everyone's size then yes your always going to be accurate. Dude, I saw King on video playing against mostly other schools in his conference and not against Big East centers which I believe are a lot bigger than he is. He looks smaller than Freemantle and we all know that sometimes they exaggerate the height of the players. Now I just looked at his height and weigh and he is LISTED at 6'9" 225. Sanogo as you pointed out is 240 pounds. You honestly think that King can handle Sanogo? Q had a hard time handling Sanogo and most of the time he was unsuccessful and you think King is going to fair better? You got to be kidding. King is a glorified power forward. He's more like a big small forward. He did more than fine against Fremantle, sounds like you missed that game?
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 13, 2021 12:04:41 GMT -5
Go back bad read press from last summer. Ewing wanted Q to be able to play the 4, but he couldn’t. We weren’t able to play more position less in the past because of the player you’re still wishing was on our team. I don't recall Ewing ever saying he wanted Wahab to play the 4. Where did he say this? It would just surprise me if he did say that because Ewing has employed a traditional center from the get-go. I don't see why he would have wanted Wahab as the 4, which would have required Ighoefe to step in at the 5, and Ighoefe was clearly not ready despite the hype over the summer.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 13, 2021 12:12:25 GMT -5
Go back bad read press from last summer. Ewing wanted Q to be able to play the 4, but he couldn’t. We weren’t able to play more position less in the past because of the player you’re still wishing was on our team. I don't recall Ewing ever saying he wanted Wahab to play the 4. Where did he say this? It would just surprise me if he did say that because Ewing has employed a traditional center from the get-go. I don't see why he would have wanted Wahab as the 4, which would have required Ighoefe to step in at the 5, and Ighoefe was clearly not ready despite the hype over the summer. I don’t know, go google it. I don’t have time to pull sources for you. They were working on big sets in the off-season TO have Q and Tim on the floor at the same time. Clearly it didn’t come to fruition because it didn’t work, Q couldn’t pick up the position. Ewing referenced it, Pickett referenced it, Simonds referenced it, etc. etc. That was one of their lineups that they hoped they could integrate. You don’t know why he’d want to be able to run that lineup? Because Q being able to play 2 positions > Q being able to play one position. Kind of the crux of the past few pages of discussion. Flexibility is a good thing. Ewing was trying to get ahead of the gaps in his defense, the ones that killed us against bigs like Samuels we just HAD TO dare to shoot schematically. We didn’t have an answer. I’m not going to fault Q for not being able to learn another position, but I’ll also point out that it shows the limitations of his ability as a player. To that end, King will bring something different and just as, if not morseo, valuable in its own right. Being able to switch on defense will be a huge plus, and he’s incredibly active on both sides of the ball. ONLY player in the country to have something like 40+ blocks AND 30+ steals. Q was good and a good rebounder, but again to my previous points he didn’t always leverage his length properly. Add to that, he was often glued to the floor and couldn’t rebound outside of his area (that’s an important quality to have). Also, he wasn’t always the best at boxing out. He got his rebounds by timing and just being the tallest on the floor. King may not put up the same rebounding numbers, but he appears to box out well and will be more active outside of his area (I.e less predictable). Add in an improved Tim and Ryan and I think our rebounding will be fine (even without additions). Personally, I can’t wait to see him bring the dunkers spot back to the BE 😁. I think he’s an old school PF with a scoring edge. Dante is a plus rebounder. Aminu was one of if not the best rebounding guard in HS. Riley will be able to board. Sibley has the potential to be at least a Pickett level rebounder., and much sooner. Etc.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Apr 13, 2021 12:29:27 GMT -5
I wouldn’t mind playing King at center and Baldwin at PF. 😉
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2021 12:37:28 GMT -5
Dude, I saw King on video playing against mostly other schools in his conference and not against Big East centers which I believe are a lot bigger than he is. He looks smaller than Freemantle and we all know that sometimes they exaggerate the height of the players. Now I just looked at his height and weigh and he is LISTED at 6'9" 225. Sanogo as you pointed out is 240 pounds. You honestly think that King can handle Sanogo? Q had a hard time handling Sanogo and most of the time he was unsuccessful and you think King is going to fair better? You got to be kidding. King is a glorified power forward. He's more like a big small forward. Dude then I guess you missed him scoring 25 - 13 rebounds 4 steal and a block against Xavier early this past season. All that and the only guy over 6' 7" that saw any type of significant minutes on his team. When this kid starts at the 5 next season or sees most of his time at the 5 then I fully expect you to rip into Ewing....look forward to it. Why would I rip Ewing when Ewing is my guy?
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