Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Nov 14, 2023 23:52:30 GMT -5
When you accept money from foreign actors, you are now beholden to them. Very slippery slope. See Qatar and current Middle East situation. Is there a reason why this would be any different for foreign actors than for domestic ones? It would apply to domestic actors as well. I was focused more on foreign countries. Also, not a fan of awarding GU degrees outside of Healy Gates. We’re not Starbucks, don’t need global expansion.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 15, 2023 0:11:05 GMT -5
It would apply to domestic actors as well. I was focused more on foreign countries. Also, not a fan of awarding GU degrees outside of Healy Gates. We’re not Starbucks, don’t need global expansion. Question for the board: what would you think if Georgetown established (or acquired) another campus within the US, for example, the west coast? With Johns Hopkins, NYU, and Texas A&M (among others) with campus outposts in Washington, is national expansion a future trend, particularly among schools with a "brand" name? Northeastern University is already going down this path. graduate.northeastern.edu/our-campus-network/
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Nov 15, 2023 0:52:23 GMT -5
The Northeastern model reads like a four-year hotel timeshare- come stay at our various properties across the globe. Do you even need to take real classes? It may make sense for some colleges to have an outpost in DC for students who are politically inclined. Would GU have a campus in California for the sake of it? If we were a technology oriented school, it may make sense to have a second campus near Silicon Valley.
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Post by LizziebethHoya on Nov 15, 2023 11:46:36 GMT -5
There is an express difference between a university having an outpost - as many do in cities like DC, NYC, LA, and London - and having an actual 4-year, degree-awarding campus there. Typically, outposts are used to give students the opportunity to have exposure to the real world in their field without leaving the school (read: still pay tuition dollars), akin to a study abroad experience. Its a plug to say, "come to [university with traditional campus] to start and then spend a semester or two where you really want to be" so you don't have to sacrifice the traditional "college campus experience." SO many schools do this, and have done this for a very long time. Because I grew up there, I know that Syracuse has used this model a lot as a way to entice people to actually spend the majority of their college experience in cold, snowy, grey, Syracuse.
Northeastern has always been a different type of school for kids looking for that "real world" experience so their current model isn't particularly surprising; they truly march to the beat of their own drum.
I would start to get concerned if, with the closure and pending closure of a lot of small schools, big universities use it as an opportunity to create additional campuses (not outposts). Then you will truly have the Starbucks model of education. I see no need for Georgetown to have another US campus.
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Nov 15, 2023 12:28:20 GMT -5
Is there a reason why this would be any different for foreign actors than for domestic ones? It would apply to domestic actors as well. I was focused more on foreign countries. Also, not a fan of awarding GU degrees outside of Healy Gates. We’re not Starbucks, don’t need global expansion. I've always been uncomfortable with the existence of the Qatar campus. The idea that someone can "graduate from Georgetown" without ever setting foot on campus (and possibly, for that matter, in the United States) just doesn't sit right with me. And the discomfort is only heightened by the fact that the campus is in a Middle Eastern country with a questionable human-rights record. Frankly I'm not thrilled about the possibility of someday reading a newspaper profile of a dictator with "Georgetown University graduate" prominently splashed in there. (Yes, I know that plenty of bad people can, and do, come out of the main campus. But I don't like the idea of catching the flak for someone who never even actually went to the school.)
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Nov 15, 2023 16:31:26 GMT -5
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C86
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Post by C86 on Nov 15, 2023 17:05:25 GMT -5
Well, in HC’s defense, at that time there were no Healy Gates. . .
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 15, 2023 17:15:17 GMT -5
The Healy family is part of the murky nature of mixed race applicants to colleges in the 1800s. Sources list Healy's mother as 1/8th black, which according to the rules of the antebellum South categorized her progeny as such, but the family was never publicly referred to as African-American until the 1960s. An earlier Georgetown alumnus and future U.S. Ambassador, Alexander Dimitry (AB 1825), was one of 10 children to a Greek father and a Creole mother from New Orleans, who was pronounced as white so as to be married in public. At least three other Dimitrys are in the alumni records of the 1800s as is Dimitry's nephew, college professor and author Ernest Lagarde, who attended Georgetown and was later awarded an honorary degree in 1869. Lagarde is now referred to as "Creole" in recent books on the subject, but none would have been listed as such, even after the Civil War. Wikipedia goes so far as to claim Dimitry was "the first person of color to attend Georgetown University," but this is not acknowledged by Georgetown. The first person of color to have attended and graduated from an undergraduate school is recognized as Samuel Halsey, SFS Class of 1953, though his time on the campus may have been very brief as SFS offered courses off campus as well.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Nov 15, 2023 17:39:49 GMT -5
Well, in HC’s defense, at that time there were no Healy Gates. . . Touchééééééé
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 17, 2023 16:58:29 GMT -5
If the NY Times backed off the Indonesia satellite campus story, The HOYA did not, though the ever-bureaucratic response printed in the article tells you all you need to know that this isn't a satellite campus and it's not happening anytime soon. The quote: "We welcome President Jokowi’s enthusiastic support as we explore the development of possible Georgetown School of Foreign Service programs in Indonesia. We are in continuous dialogue with our partners and key stakeholders — both through Georgetown’s governance procedures and Indonesia’s regulatory processes — in assessing the nature and scope of such programs for future consideration."thehoya.com/georgetown-to-open-campus-in-indonesia/
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Nov 23, 2023 0:39:50 GMT -5
It would apply to domestic actors as well. I was focused more on foreign countries. Also, not a fan of awarding GU degrees outside of Healy Gates. We’re not Starbucks, don’t need global expansion. I've always been uncomfortable with the existence of the Qatar campus. The idea that someone can "graduate from Georgetown" without ever setting foot on campus (and possibly, for that matter, in the United States) just doesn't sit right with me. And the discomfort is only heightened by the fact that the campus is in a Middle Eastern country with a questionable human-rights record. Frankly I'm not thrilled about the possibility of someday reading a newspaper profile of a dictator with "Georgetown University graduate" prominently splashed in there. (Yes, I know that plenty of bad people can, and do, come out of the main campus. But I don't like the idea of catching the flak for someone who never even actually went to the school.) Joking about our 19th century Holy Cross diploma laundering aside, I would remind Bigs'R'Us that it has long been true that one could earn a Georgetown degree without ever stepping inside the Healy Gates, thanks to the various locations of our law school and, more recently, what is now called the School of Continuing Studies. My own master's program was first started as the M.A. in National Security Studies in the Department of Government, and its courses were held in the Pentagon - only blue and green badgers need apply, please. One could protest that this is acceptable for graduate professional courses of study, but not undergraduates, but of course the law school used to award LL.B.s back when that was a thing. More recently, we have seen a blooming of undergraduate degree-granting programs for the incarcerated, including Georgetown's foray into this space. Needless to say, most of those students will be earning their degrees without ever setting foot on the Hilltop. If we set aside those two examples, though - after all, there's lots of law schools not on their respective main campuses and now lots of prison programs - I want to take your points, CT, and Liz's together here - man, it's a Class of '08 party here! They point to a fundamental question, as does DFW's provocative-in-a-good-way question about the prospect of another campus in the U.S. Universities are interesting things in that they're both strongly associated with specific places and also among our first and oldest modern institutions, which seek to escape the constraints of geographic and temporal fixation and exist in more than one place (e.g, through bonds of continued alumni affiliation - one may well say 'for where two or three Hoyas are gathered, there is Georgetown in the midst of them') and across centuries of time. Today's global universities like Georgetown are logical continuations of that heritage, with their retreat centers like Calcagnini in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia, their study abroad campuses like the Villa and Alanya, their administrative offices, like the Georgetown office at Fudan University (hey, wait, whatever happened to that? Did it just vanish?), and their research and service outposts, like the Center for Global Health Practice and Impact, which has boots on the ground "in more than 12 countries." Those footprints, and of course SFS-Q, may not be part of Georgetown the place, but they are certainly part of Georgetown the institution. The pandemic has served as a powerful, visceral reminder of the importance of sharing space together and reinforcing the long-standing institutional viewpoint that a critical element of Georgetown's 'special sauce' for undergraduates is its communal, residential college nature. That nature can evolve and adapt over time - the rise of mass study abroad, the new program for public policy seniors downtown, etc. - but there's a continuing thread that some fundamental connection to the Hilltop is crucial for the Georgetown undergraduate experience. Except for SFS-Q, of course. It is best to think of it as 'its own thing.' A comparison to a New World mission vis-a-vis Rome might be apt, though that's not an analogy that most would look upon favorably these days, given the brutality at the heart of 'How the West Was Won.' It may be better, then, to think of it as a modern experiment with no good analogues. It's highly unlikely anyone will conflate the SFS-Q experience with that of the traditional Georgetown undergraduate, any more than one confuses the handful of Bachelor of Arts in Liberal Studies graduates produced each year ( fully online starting Summer 2023!) with the denizens the Hilltop. The concerns are valid, though. Both SFS-Q and BALS have been judged to be too small to threaten the core identity and brand of the traditional Georgetown undergraduate experience. Would the prospect of a campus somewhere else in the U.S. be a step too far, diluting what it means to be a Hoya? The answer, as usual, is almost certainly "it depends." Just as Syracuse, Berkeley, Pepperdine, Arizona State, etc. etc. can have DC campuses without losing their strong locational affiliations, so to could a location with some limited, clearly defined, and thoroughly justified scope be a value add without being an identity minus. A home for specialized graduate study, summer programs, and 'study ashore' during junior year could fit comfortably within the existing framework. It would need a compelling reason, though, and not 'just because.'
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 23, 2023 1:19:47 GMT -5
One could protest that this is acceptable for graduate professional courses of study, but not undergraduates, but of course the law school used to award LL.B.s back when that was a thing. Jumping in here briefly on the LL.B degree. The bachelor of laws was awarded largely because, well, it had always been that way, dating back to the universities of Europe. FWIW, Georgetown actually did not require an undergraduate degree to enter law school until the fall of 1936 for enrollment purposes--law school in the Depression was a revenue driver. As to the degree itself, the major law schools argued that the completion of law school was more accurately a terminal degree, so the J.D. (juris doctor) was introduced in the 1960s and the ABA-accredited law schools moved away from the LL.B. at that time, though the LL.M (master of laws) is actually a postgraduate degree despite its title. (The LL.B. is still a course of study in the UK, however.) But similar to an earlier discussion about why bachelor degrees have to be four years, a lot of discussions on degrees are rooted in inertia, and some academics genuinely see change in this area as a very slippery slope. The Capital Campus, international sites, and the unintended consequences of an undergraduate degree experience outside 37th and O will test some of these past beliefs.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Nov 23, 2023 5:27:39 GMT -5
Call me old fashioned, but to me handing out degrees for online programs, to incarcerated, in Qatar, etc. serves to diminish the GU degree. Is this progress or merely a combination of DEI and money grab?
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Nov 24, 2023 15:28:23 GMT -5
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Dec 25, 2023 16:32:09 GMT -5
Call me old fashioned, but to me handing out degrees for online programs, to incarcerated, in Qatar, etc. serves to diminish the GU degree. Is this progress or merely a combination of DEI and money grab? To each their own, but to me, anyone who looks at this program for the incarcerated and decides it diminishes the value of a Georgetown degree in their eyes is not someone whose opinion I give much weight to. Some things are more important than pure exclusivity: https://www.instagram.com/p/C1KNot3Oemm
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Dec 25, 2023 21:39:14 GMT -5
Call me old fashioned, but to me handing out degrees for online programs, to incarcerated, in Qatar, etc. serves to diminish the GU degree. Is this progress or merely a combination of DEI and money grab? To each their own, but to me, anyone who looks at this program for the incarcerated and decides it diminishes the value of a Georgetown degree in their eyes is not someone whose opinion I give much weight to. Some things are more important than pure exclusivity: https://www.instagram.com/p/C1KNot3Oemm Prison education programs help lower recidivism rates and increase employment opportunities post-release. Education programs can reduce recidivism. A 2018 meta-analysis published in the Journal of Experimental Criminology found that individuals who enroll in postsecondary education programs are 48% less likely to be reincarcerated than their peers who do not. www.usnews.com/education/articles/prison-education-programs-what-to-knowPedro Arrupe's famous address in which he challenged Jesuit school alumni to form what we now embrace as “people for others.” www.ignatianspirituality.com/what-is-ignatian-spirituality/the-ignatian-way/men-and-women-for-others/
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Dec 26, 2023 18:20:26 GMT -5
Didn’t mean to be a Negative Nelly. Always nice to help those in need.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Dec 27, 2023 19:48:17 GMT -5
Didn’t mean to be a Negative Nelly. Always nice to help those in need. Duly and respectfully noted. And I want to underscore that your overarching concerns regarding dilution of the brand are certainly legitimate and very much weigh on the minds of DeGioia, Groves, the Board(s), etc. as they approve new initiatives and especially new degree-granting programs. It's a question with no objective answer, and so there will always be some level of disagreement about attempted innovations. Speaking of which... relevant topic in the Post this week about campus expansions far beyond institutions' home metro areas: www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/12/22/college-satellite-campus-cities/
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 27, 2023 22:30:22 GMT -5
I'm very supportive of Marc Howard's efforts but I think some people have conflated the different programs: 1. The DC jail program is a mix of credit and non-credit classes. However, no degrees are awarded. 2. The Maryland jail program is a degree granting program, but the first graduates will not actually complete studies before 2027. 3 The Pivot program is a mix of classes and internships for paroled offenders to land full time employment reentering society. This leads to a certificate. 4. The MORCA program trains people who wish to become paralegals. SCS (School of Continuing Studies) now produces more alumni annually than any other school, and 95% of alumni know little or nothing about it. there's a healthy discussion here about how that school fits into the brand, but the Prison & Justice Initiative is worth its weight in gold for those that get a chance to go through the programs. Here's an example. prisonsandjustice.georgetown.edu/news/alum-kenard-johnson-from-jailhouse-lawyer-to-professional-paralegal/ For further reading, the 2022 Annual Report: drive.google.com/file/d/1fxZQtuph7Gpt6p84I2KuqNf59Hqh9X7v/view
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jan 8, 2024 21:19:46 GMT -5
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