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Post by hoyalove4ever on Dec 21, 2020 8:51:38 GMT -5
Ighoefe has quietly had some very positive minutes today. Thought he and Berger have looked good off the bench. Very strong game for Timmy in limited minutes off the bench...
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rhw485
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by rhw485 on Dec 21, 2020 9:16:45 GMT -5
Guess i need to set FS1 and FS2 to dvr when going to miss the start of games at this point. Missed the first 6 minutes but still got the gist of the game: - The defense will continue to define the Patrick Ewing era. It's not close, and it's really hard to find signs of progress. Just simple off ball screens where we lazily go under yields wide open 3s. As much as I criticize the scheme of what we're trying to do, there's just no excuse for that to happen multiple times in a game. Are we so unprepared for the sets coming from opponents? I'm at the point where I want to see players yanked for specific defensive breakdowns to prove points that they need to be accountable
- For me, Q's development was maybe the thing I was most focused on heading into the year. If you look at the rate stats...it's largely similar? Maybe it's an accomplishment to maintain the solid O-rating while taking on more minutes and that's an achievement. His range is the same, he doesn't look comfortable w double teams and he's fading away more than you'd expect. He's almost just learned how to shoot hook shots around people because he knows they can't block it. Which is valuable and its working, but won't work against the bigger guys in BE. He still hasn't actually faced a true center yet in BE play and only played 23 min vs. WVA. Very curious to see how he looks against SH, if he can stay on the floor.
- Do we need to institute the Hoosiers rule of 5 passes on offense before a shot? Just so many wasted possessions with zero or 1 passes and settling for a pull up. The possession where Blair gets a stepback 3 blocked w 20 seconds left on clock, Pickett grabs it and then takes two dribbles and jacks up a 18 foot fade away...man that's just bad basketball from your seniors. I appreciate Ewing gives the guys a green light but that's just bad all around. Same w D. Harris bricking a pull up- off dribble 3 off zero passes and pretty much any Bile shot.
- Speaking of D. Harris...yes it wasn't great. For me I'll still take solace in the fact that the speed plays. A bunch of the turnovers were after he beat his man off dribble. And he struggled a little bit finishing around the rim, which will take some getting used to. Still long term bullish
- And I'm still bullish on Berger. I'm amazed there's so many comments on his defense, at least he is always in the right spot. That's half the battle and our defense doesn't get that right most times. Liked his one handed pass to Carey in corner for 3.
On some level this wasn't too surprising, it was very clearly a desperate St. Johns team at 0-3 and they played just faster all game. I think this game just highlights how small the margin for error is. So much has to go right to win and of course we'll pull it off in some games but there's going to be plenty like last night.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Dec 21, 2020 9:43:47 GMT -5
Guess i need to set FS1 and FS2 to dvr when going to miss the start of games at this point. Missed the first 6 minutes but still got the gist of the game: - The defense will continue to define the Patrick Ewing era. It's not close, and it's really hard to find signs of progress. Just simple off ball screens where we lazily go under yields wide open 3s. As much as I criticize the scheme of what we're trying to do, there's just no excuse for that to happen multiple times in a game. Are we so unprepared for the sets coming from opponents? I'm at the point where I want to see players yanked for specific defensive breakdowns to prove points that they need to be accountable
- For me, Q's development was maybe the thing I was most focused on heading into the year. If you look at the rate stats...it's largely similar? Maybe it's an accomplishment to maintain the solid O-rating while taking on more minutes and that's an achievement. His range is the same, he doesn't look comfortable w double teams and he's fading away more than you'd expect. He's almost just learned how to shoot hook shots around people because he knows they can't block it. Which is valuable and its working, but won't work against the bigger guys in BE. He still hasn't actually faced a true center yet in BE play and only played 23 min vs. WVA. Very curious to see how he looks against SH, if he can stay on the floor.
- Do we need to institute the Hoosiers rule of 5 passes on offense before a shot? Just so many wasted possessions with zero or 1 passes and settling for a pull up. The possession where Blair gets a stepback 3 blocked w 20 seconds left on clock, Pickett grabs it and then takes two dribbles and jacks up a 18 foot fade away...man that's just bad basketball from your seniors. I appreciate Ewing gives the guys a green light but that's just bad all around. Same w D. Harris bricking a pull up- off dribble 3 off zero passes and pretty much any Bile shot.
- Speaking of D. Harris...yes it wasn't great. For me I'll still take solace in the fact that the speed plays. A bunch of the turnovers were after he beat his man off dribble. And he struggled a little bit finishing around the rim, which will take some getting used to. Still long term bullish
- And I'm still bullish on Berger. I'm amazed there's so many comments on his defense, at least he is always in the right spot. That's half the battle and our defense doesn't get that right most times. Liked his one handed pass to Carey in corner for 3.
On some level this wasn't too surprising, it was very clearly a desperate St. Johns team at 0-3 and they played just faster all game. I think this game just highlights how small the margin for error is. So much has to go right to win and of course we'll pull it off in some games but there's going to be plenty like last night.
Agree on Berger. He makes the right play offensively (he seems to me to be the best ball-mover on the team RIGHT NOW...which is depressing at some level). And he is fundamentally sound on D. I think he just struggles athletically to keep his man in front...that's all. That's OK given his other attributes if you have other plus defenders that can take on more critical defensive roles and let him guard someone that can't penetrate well, etc. But, we can't do that right now. We ought to be able to get him shots organically, just by getting into the lane and kicking, but we just don't seem to have the horses to do that right now. And agree on Q. The thing that stood out to me today was his complete inability to use a secondary move effectively. He basically didn't even try. There was one possession where someone was to his right and all he had to do was go up from one foot away (or dunk) with his left, but he didn't try. Instead he got balanced, turned, and shot his patented fading righty hook. Several times he turned into traffic (when he knew where the traffic was) to shoot that shot. He's got to be able to drop step with his right foot and shoot a power shot with his left. He should be working on that two hours a day. Malcolm is an interesting one. When he was in there, he got lost several times schematically. And he obviously struggles with physicality. And those are probably the problems that Ewing has with him. But he's so much quicker and fluid on both ends of the court than either guy that if he can figure out the team-based defensive schemes and just get a bit stronger, he can be a very useful piece. He can keep quicker 5s in front of him and handle PNR better than the other two can. (Not for nothing....the travel on him was a bad call. He bobbled the ball in the post so he never had possession....you can't travel if you never have possession.)
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Post by aleutianhoya on Dec 21, 2020 9:48:27 GMT -5
Spot on re: Blair bringing the ball up. Dante had a rough game, but he's the guy who should be bringing the ball up and getting us into the offense. Blair & Carey are the two guys who can consistently score from range if given clean looks -- our offense should be biased towards getting those guys clean looks. Hoping we can throw Berger on this list soon enough. Frustrating to not put Pickett on that list -- but unless he's completely set/squared/balanced, he's just not reliable. I feel like this team will go as Q goes. He has potential, and if he improves, we have a chance to steal a few BE games. He has made a difference protecting the rim, but needs to add power to his offensive game, and be able to pass out when it's not there. At this point, when he catches, he's taking the baby hook, period. He's not passing out, he's not going up strong. That's not gonna get it done against good competition. We'll be out-talented for the remainder of our games. I'm just looking for improvement & eventually, cohesiveness. Unfortunately, didn't see much today. But I'll keep tuning in. Dante was getting his pocket picked for easy turnovers bringing it up. This is why they had to switch to Carey and Blair. Dante needs to get used to Big East speed and length. They don’t want to overwhelm him and have him be a shell shocked like Carson Wentz or Adam Gase Agreed. Blair was safer with the ball. There wasn't a lot of planning to it though. Those two guys set screens for one another and whichever was open got the inbound pass and then the other one went up the court. And that makes sense (why risk another pass to get it to Dante when you don't have to). But we absolutely have to get into our sets faster. If we're going to run the high PNR, send it up there immediately, so we at least get some other action if that doesn't work. For a team that wants to play fast...we get into our sets awfully slow in the half court.
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beenaround
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by beenaround on Dec 21, 2020 12:16:21 GMT -5
Hopefully I’m proven to be a cranky old pessimist, but this team is mediocre to poor in so many areas, 2-3 BE wins is the best we can expect. The areas that we are severely lacking in are: 1. Athleticism ( except the bigs , who lack any offensive polish) 2. Ball handling 3. Passing 4 shot creation 5. Defense 6. Coaching. I’m sorry. I adore Patrick and supported his hire. I pray with some talent he gets it together next yr...but he and his staff still haven’t shown much.
Yes...a couple guys can shoot when open... but how often can they get open with all these limitations.
Ok. I’m done venting. Pls Hoyas...shut me up and prove me wrong!,
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jester
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Post by jester on Dec 21, 2020 14:00:54 GMT -5
Agree with most of this. In this last game we really needed to work for a good shot, and the combo of not working for it (not enough passing) and not being talented: athletic enough (SJ was much better at creating their own shots 1:1) doomed us (ignoring defense). The reason why mid majors win is good passing / decision makers and efficiency in scoring. We may bot have the talent of other schools yet but the other issue is our five most experienced players also aren’t good at picking their spots.
I think the ball pressure definitely affected us / we couldn’t make them pay while repeatedly SJ did the opposite - they scored easily. Credit to them they also made a lot of tough shots we couldn’t make.
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DudeSlade
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I got through the Esherick years. I can get through anything.
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Post by DudeSlade on Dec 21, 2020 15:34:40 GMT -5
Must admit that I didn't see the game - first one I've missed this year -- but reading the comments here, they are reinforcing something that I'm just very confused about with a Patrick Ewing-led team: the inconsistent effort and intensity.
Effort and intensity are at least half of what makes a good defense and good rebounding. It's not like Pat is chilling over on the sidelines -- the same old intensity everyone associates with him as a player seems to be there as a coach. So what's not translating to his team? There are times that we have it and our whole baseline of play as a team takes a jump. But then other times...? This was the one thing I thought would be a given game-in & game-out for all 40 minutes with Pat as coach. Just very confused by why that hasn't been the case.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 21, 2020 16:13:21 GMT -5
They shot 44% from 3 and usually shoot 33% That was basically the game right there They were hot, not much we could’ve done.
If they shoot 44% consistently with that 40 minutes of hell pesssing defense and athleticism, they would be a top 10 team
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Dec 21, 2020 16:53:38 GMT -5
They shot 44% from 3 and usually shoot 33% That was basically the game right there They were hot, not much we could’ve done. If they shoot 44% consistently with that 40 minutes of hell pesssing defense and athleticism, they would be a top 10 team They also shot way more threes than they normally do - 46% vs 33% of total attempts. One thing we could have tried was limiting their threes. But, letting teams take a lot of threes seems to be part of our defensive philosophy.
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Post by RockawayHoya on Dec 21, 2020 17:32:16 GMT -5
They shot 44% from 3 and usually shoot 33% That was basically the game right there They were hot, not much we could’ve done. If they shoot 44% consistently with that 40 minutes of hell pesssing defense and athleticism, they would be a top 10 team They also shot way more threes than they normally do - 46% vs 33% of total attempts. One thing we could have tried was limiting their threes. But, letting teams take a lot of threes seems to be part of our defensive philosophy. Letting them take a lot of threes wasn't the problem. Letting them take a lot of threes without a hand in their face (or really, without anyone within a few feet of theM) was the problem. Strategy worked against Coppin, but any halfway decent team is going to make you pay if you're just going to simulate shootaround as a defensive strategy all night.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 21, 2020 17:53:36 GMT -5
Are we simply not athletic enough? Basketball talent is not optimal right now, but do we also need better athletes? Athletes would help but our spacing and defensive coordination stinks. Take this sequence. Photo 1: At the bottom, we have Blair and then Carey behind guarding #15. As it is, Carey is probably too far from #15 but okay. By this photo, Carey is completely ignoring his guy, and focusing on the ball which has been passed to the top right corner. Carey, now nowhere near his guy because he's helping, leaves #15 wide open for a three point shot, which he makes. This is why it's not just a matter of "St. John's was hot, on to the next one." Shooting 44% on threes isn't that "hot" when you consider that they're getting wide open shots. I understand Carey was trying to help, but a good defense doesn't do their rotations this way, and it has nothing to do with athleticism.
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mdtd
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Post by mdtd on Dec 21, 2020 18:36:36 GMT -5
They also shot way more threes than they normally do - 46% vs 33% of total attempts. One thing we could have tried was limiting their threes. But, letting teams take a lot of threes seems to be part of our defensive philosophy. Letting them take a lot of threes wasn't the problem. Letting them take a lot of threes without a hand in their face (or really, without anyone within a few feet of theM) was the problem. Strategy worked against Coppin, but any halfway decent team is going to make you pay if you're just going to simulate shootaround as a defensive strategy all night. This 100%. If the opponent takes 100 threes, but all are heavily contested, I am absolutely happy. Just less open looks. Defense is something to monitor this season. Improvement is key. If this is our defense against Creighton, they might put up 120. We have to start contesting shots better.
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kbones17
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Post by kbones17 on Dec 21, 2020 23:05:42 GMT -5
I almost feel like we need to commit to going to another defense for a full game (results be damned) just to get more practice in it. Like, go full court for a full game, or go 2-3 zone for a full game. If nothing else, we’ll come out of it with a better understanding of it. We are currently only half-heartedly trying other things and going away from it very quickly.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Dec 22, 2020 7:19:42 GMT -5
St. John's was hot- on to the next one.
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rhw485
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Post by rhw485 on Dec 22, 2020 7:35:52 GMT -5
Are we simply not athletic enough? Basketball talent is not optimal right now, but do we also need better athletes? Athletes would help but our spacing and defensive coordination stinks. Take this sequence. Photo 1: View AttachmentAt the bottom, we have Blair and then Carey behind guarding #15. As it is, Carey is probably too far from #15 but okay. View AttachmentBy this photo, Carey is completely ignoring his guy, and focusing on the ball which has been passed to the top right corner. View AttachmentCarey, now nowhere near his guy because he's helping, leaves #15 wide open for a three point shot, which he makes. This is why it's not just a matter of "St. John's was hot, on to the next one." Shooting 44% on threes isn't that "hot" when you consider that they're getting wide open shots. I understand Carey was trying to help, but a good defense doesn't do their rotations this way, and it has nothing to do with athleticism. Yes great example. If I remember this play correctly, Harris is the one flying to the shooter on a late closeout. And that's where we don't really know, did Carey overhelp or did Harris lose his responsibility on the rotation? And that's why assigning individual defensive responsibility is difficult, my gut is telling me it's not on Carey and probably Harris. Carey has baseline help responsibility, potentially to take a charge and he's trusting someone is making a rotation. But yes ultimately something has gone terribly wrong on this play. And this is where it's just unclear what the plan is. And there's multiple ways to do this. Texas tech forces drives to the baseline, refuses to even let dribblers get to ball screens that point middle, and then drills in rotational responsibilities. Everyone moves quickly because they know where the drive is going to be forced and can anticipate helping. Houston...does the exact opposite. Kelvin Sampson preaches forcing the ball to the middle knowing that's where he's positioned his helpers. Both of those teams have good defenses. Multiple times our big is preparing to help middle, and our guard gives up a baseline drive. Trying to discern what the plan is has been difficult. On a positive note, next year it won't be athletes as a problem, so if they can sort out the defensive responsibilities they have a chance.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Dec 22, 2020 8:01:51 GMT -5
If you have five players committed to dogging their man on defense like Posh, I don’t care what scheme you’re running. That said, the refs let him get away with fouling.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Dec 22, 2020 9:09:39 GMT -5
At Johns plays scrappy basketball and they hound you for forty minutes. Then, on top of that, they employed a strategy of deliberately relying on the long ball.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Dec 22, 2020 10:15:48 GMT -5
Are we simply not athletic enough? Basketball talent is not optimal right now, but do we also need better athletes? Athletes would help but our spacing and defensive coordination stinks. Take this sequence. Photo 1: View AttachmentAt the bottom, we have Blair and then Carey behind guarding #15. As it is, Carey is probably too far from #15 but okay. View AttachmentBy this photo, Carey is completely ignoring his guy, and focusing on the ball which has been passed to the top right corner. View AttachmentCarey, now nowhere near his guy because he's helping, leaves #15 wide open for a three point shot, which he makes. This is why it's not just a matter of "St. John's was hot, on to the next one." Shooting 44% on threes isn't that "hot" when you consider that they're getting wide open shots. I understand Carey was trying to help, but a good defense doesn't do their rotations this way, and it has nothing to do with athleticism. Great series of photos, 2003. A few things: (1) This is a classic "raise the defense" set. St.J has three guys high AND in the middle, so it's hard for any of their defenders to sag too low toward the basket and provide natural help without leaving their man wide open. It's a classic NBA set. The key is that the three guys are not only high but also central, so that there's plenty of space for the ballhandler to drive but they're close enough to the ball that any true help will necessarily leave them open. It's designed to get exactly what it got: A driving player with easy vision to the opposite corner, which is where the help most naturally will come. (2) As always, the main problem is that the primary defender gets beat. To be fair, Jamorko in that last picture doesn't look like he got toasted. But it looks like an open layup is at least a possibility so someone has to help for sure. Again: if the primary defender keeps his man in front, there's no issue. (3) The next big problem is that Blair and Harris never see the ball. Look at the second picture! Rhianna could be dancing naked under the hoop and they wouldn't see it! Even in the third picture, they don't see what's happening. That's as basic a defensive fundamental as there is. And they utterly fail. (4) In terms of scheme, it's got to be either Q or Carey that are the designated help. It looks like Carey thinks it's him, given how aggressively he's helping even in the second picture. If it's NOT him, he should be much closer to his man. If Q is supposed to be the primary help, he at least is doing a nice job of seeing the ball at all times and in the last one is trying to get to the basket. If he is the help, he's probably a bit too close to his man in the second picture, but he's also got responsibility to help on off-ball screening action, so it's not that bad. I have no idea if he would have made it to the basket or not, but if it's his responsibility, then Carey shouldn't have helped so much. If it was Carey's responsibility (and it may well have been), then Q shouldn't really be diving so aggressively to the basket. That might lead to a block...but it also may lead to an offensive board by his man and makes it impossible for the other two guys to fully rotate (since there's two defenders on four players). (5) Regardless -- and this is critical -- the fact that Blair and Harris don't see the ball kills the whole sequence. They aren't able to timely rotate because they don't see what's happening. So...sure, it may well be scheme in part. But I think it's much more individual failures at executing whatever the scheme is supposed to be. This isn't like last year's "hard hedge every time" move...where the personnel executed it reasonably well much of the time but it still didn't (and couldn't) work.
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