hoopsmccan
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,429
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Post by hoopsmccan on Dec 11, 2020 16:14:40 GMT -5
I know I'll catch some flack for this but watching the Hoyas play defense during the Ewing era has made me appreciate Jim Boeheim. Please let me finish. No. Blocked. hm
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rhw485
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 742
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Post by rhw485 on Dec 11, 2020 16:15:31 GMT -5
I know I'll catch some flack for this but watching the Hoyas play defense during the Ewing era has made me appreciate Jim Boeheim. Please let me finish. We all know that Syracuse is basically a 2-3 zone defense team. I've often wondered why and also why more teams don't do the same. I think I now see the genius (or at least the reason) Boeheim does it. We've seen the past 3 years that trying to play man defense requires truly exceptional athletes. They not only have to be physically quick and strong but also mentally alert constantly. But what happens if you don't have those athletes or enough of those athletes to make a man defense work? I think we see what happens. You wind up with teams boasting one of the country's worst defensive stats for 3 years in a row. But if you play 2-3 zone exclusively and work hard teaching your players how to implement it you have a much better chance of making your defensive system fit your players than, as we've seen with PE, trying to get your players to fit your defensive system. Watching Govan guarding guys 20 feet from the basket or Pickett trying to find the guy he's supposed to be guarding really is awful. But if you stick Govan (or especially Wahab or Iggy)in the middle of a 2-3 you get the most out of their abilities and sticking Pickett on a wing makes it less likely he will get lost on screens and also takes advantage of his height and wingspan. We saw a really lame attempt at a 2-3 zone in our last game but even still it worked. I don't understand why Orr hasn't worked to have this weapon more polished and useful. Am I missing something? An interesting question that might require more analysis but some quick thoughts: 1. I think Cuse team last year showed that if you don't have length at really every spot, then even a well run 2-3 defense is vulnerable. They're Adj D efficiency was 99th last year and we absolute tore it apart at the seams. We've never really had that length under Ewing. I would've been interested in a world where Mosely played PG could we have pulled it off w him at the top of the zone and Pickett / Leblanc / Wahab on the backline but alas it wasn't meant to be. The lineups of Wahab, Pickett, Bile, Blair, J Harris is probably the biggest lineup Ewing has had 1-5 so it's worth seeing if it can work. 2. For me the appeal of going all-in on a 2-3 zone is that it simplifies the offense you're going to face. There are only so many ways to attack a 2-3 zone and you can really focus on those. There's gonna be people who try to screen the top, there's always the flash to the middle, you have to dive down to cover baseline when ball hits middle etc. That's why I always thought JT3 approach of just running your same man to man offense was fascinating and it through Cuse for a loop because they weren't expecting it the first few times. 3. I personally disagree with the premise that man to man defense requires truly exceptional athletes. Yes of course being athletic is a great start. But it would probably be 5th or 6th in terms of importance for me. I think man to man defense requires: discipline, attention to detail, communication, and a structured system that allows everyone to know their responsibilities. Our defense hasn't been bad for lack of effort, despite gripes about our centers. When two guys close out on the same shooter that's great effort but you're already dead in the water. Through year 3 Ewing hadn't tried to cater his approach to his roster and that the team lacked attention to detail in terms of finding shooters and understanding opponents strength. To me those are ultimately coaching points. If you're squinting to find positives in our defense, in Year 4 we've already seen Ewing change his pick and roll approach and in-game adjust to Coppin State with a switching man-to-man smallball as well as the zone you mentioned. We'll see if that's a one-off or signs of more to come in his coaching progression.
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MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,427
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 11, 2020 17:29:42 GMT -5
Is is too much to hope FS1 NOT show that 1984 championship banner anymore? Its torture.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,358
Member is Online
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Post by prhoya on Dec 11, 2020 17:41:58 GMT -5
I know I'll catch some flack for this but watching the Hoyas play defense during the Ewing era has made me appreciate Jim Boeheim. Please let me finish. We all know that Syracuse is basically a 2-3 zone defense team. I've often wondered why and also why more teams don't do the same. I think I now see the genius (or at least the reason) Boeheim does it. We've seen the past 3 years that trying to play man defense requires truly exceptional athletes. They not only have to be physically quick and strong but also mentally alert constantly. But what happens if you don't have those athletes or enough of those athletes to make a man defense work? I think we see what happens. You wind up with teams boasting one of the country's worst defensive stats for 3 years in a row. But if you play 2-3 zone exclusively and work hard teaching your players how to implement it you have a much better chance of making your defensive system fit your players than, as we've seen with PE, trying to get your players to fit your defensive system. Watching Govan guarding guys 20 feet from the basket or Pickett trying to find the guy he's supposed to be guarding really is awful. But if you stick Govan (or especially Wahab or Iggy)in the middle of a 2-3 you get the most out of their abilities and sticking Pickett on a wing makes it less likely he will get lost on screens and also takes advantage of his height and wingspan. We saw a really lame attempt at a 2-3 zone in our last game but even still it worked. I don't understand why Orr hasn't worked to have this weapon more polished and useful. Am I missing something? If the assistant coaches are not going to change, Pat and staff just need to study the best defenses in college basketball and teach it. It’s not rocket science. Obviously what they are doing is not working, so incorporate other schemes to see what works with your recruits, or set a style and recruit to it.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 11, 2020 18:23:41 GMT -5
I know I'll catch some flack for this but watching the Hoyas play defense during the Ewing era has made me appreciate Jim Boeheim. Please let me finish. We all know that Syracuse is basically a 2-3 zone defense team. I've often wondered why and also why more teams don't do the same. I think I now see the genius (or at least the reason) Boeheim does it. We've seen the past 3 years that trying to play man defense requires truly exceptional athletes. They not only have to be physically quick and strong but also mentally alert constantly. But what happens if you don't have those athletes or enough of those athletes to make a man defense work? I think we see what happens. You wind up with teams boasting one of the country's worst defensive stats for 3 years in a row. But if you play 2-3 zone exclusively and work hard teaching your players how to implement it you have a much better chance of making your defensive system fit your players than, as we've seen with PE, trying to get your players to fit your defensive system. Watching Govan guarding guys 20 feet from the basket or Pickett trying to find the guy he's supposed to be guarding really is awful. But if you stick Govan (or especially Wahab or Iggy)in the middle of a 2-3 you get the most out of their abilities and sticking Pickett on a wing makes it less likely he will get lost on screens and also takes advantage of his height and wingspan. We saw a really lame attempt at a 2-3 zone in our last game but even still it worked. I don't understand why Orr hasn't worked to have this weapon more polished and useful. Am I missing something? An interesting question that might require more analysis but some quick thoughts: 1. I think Cuse team last year showed that if you don't have length at really every spot, then even a well run 2-3 defense is vulnerable. They're Adj D efficiency was 99th last year and we absolute tore it apart at the seams. We've never really had that length under Ewing. I would've been interested in a world where Mosely played PG could we have pulled it off w him at the top of the zone and Pickett / Leblanc / Wahab on the backline but alas it wasn't meant to be. The lineups of Wahab, Pickett, Bile, Blair, J Harris is probably the biggest lineup Ewing has had 1-5 so it's worth seeing if it can work. 2. For me the appeal of going all-in on a 2-3 zone is that it simplifies the offense you're going to face. There are only so many ways to attack a 2-3 zone and you can really focus on those. There's gonna be people who try to screen the top, there's always the flash to the middle, you have to dive down to cover baseline when ball hits middle etc. That's why I always thought JT3 approach of just running your same man to man offense was fascinating and it through Cuse for a loop because they weren't expecting it the first few times. 3. I personally disagree with the premise that man to man defense requires truly exceptional athletes. Yes of course being athletic is a great start. But it would probably be 5th or 6th in terms of importance for me. I think man to man defense requires: discipline, attention to detail, communication, and a structured system that allows everyone to know their responsibilities. Our defense hasn't been bad for lack of effort, despite gripes about our centers. When two guys close out on the same shooter that's great effort but you're already dead in the water. Through year 3 Ewing hadn't tried to cater his approach to his roster and that the team lacked attention to detail in terms of finding shooters and understanding opponents strength. To me those are ultimately coaching points. If you're squinting to find positives in our defense, in Year 4 we've already seen Ewing change his pick and roll approach and in-game adjust to Coppin State with a switching man-to-man smallball as well as the zone you mentioned. We'll see if that's a one-off or signs of more to come in his coaching progression. The other problem of the 2-3 is that one of it's primary weaknesses is giving the outside shot/3 pter. This is why the 2-3 works at lower leagues or rec leagues because not everyone can shoot well from outside. However in the modern game everyone can shoot 3s well which is a major problem for the 2-3. In that sense the 2-3, like the Princeton offense is a dinosaur under the current rules and player skillset.
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daveg023
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,352
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Post by daveg023 on Dec 11, 2020 19:02:29 GMT -5
Unis are fire!
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saxagael
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,898
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Post by saxagael on Dec 11, 2020 19:05:31 GMT -5
Really nice Pickett baseline shot. More of that.
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SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 18,397
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Post by SSHoya on Dec 11, 2020 19:06:18 GMT -5
Decent start. Keep it up.
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dense
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,014
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Post by dense on Dec 11, 2020 19:06:41 GMT -5
Refs letting them play, like it. Normally Wahab gets a foul there for the shove.
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hoyaroc
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,324
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Post by hoyaroc on Dec 11, 2020 19:07:19 GMT -5
Pickett on the attack. Let’s go Hoyas!
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saxagael
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,898
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Post by saxagael on Dec 11, 2020 19:07:50 GMT -5
Up 5 veeeerrrry early. But, I'll take it. Just keep playing like this.
Nova is getting open shots that aren't dropping, but those can't remain open shots.
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Post by HometownHoya on Dec 11, 2020 19:08:09 GMT -5
Way to go Hoyas, keep this up!
Jay Wright looks like a bum
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dense
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,014
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Post by dense on Dec 11, 2020 19:08:25 GMT -5
Also don't mind that Blair long 3 in transition after he made the first.
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,962
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 11, 2020 19:08:29 GMT -5
Decent start. Keep it up. Agreed! Not a fan of the early threes but I like the way the half-court offense is flowing, Pickett is a tough guard for Nova.
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saxagael
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,898
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Post by saxagael on Dec 11, 2020 19:10:27 GMT -5
Wahab can feast all day against Nova.
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saxagael
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,898
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Post by saxagael on Dec 11, 2020 19:11:04 GMT -5
Pickett making it look easy from 3. I like this Pickett.
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dense
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,014
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Post by dense on Dec 11, 2020 19:11:06 GMT -5
GET PICKETT THE BALL, HE IS ENGAGED
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SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 18,397
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Post by SSHoya on Dec 11, 2020 19:11:11 GMT -5
Wahab down low is working
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Post by hoyaatheart55 on Dec 11, 2020 19:11:17 GMT -5
Love the confidence Pickett is playing with!!
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daveg023
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,352
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Post by daveg023 on Dec 11, 2020 19:11:18 GMT -5
Ok boys...
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